As far as i understand you mean mp5 is the better way for paladins who use FoL as mainheal? I thought its better to prefer crit because of the very high procrate off illumination and the higher heals of FoL with crit....so explain ys mp5 the better way
I've read quite a bit of this thread now and I'm wondering about overhealing. Do BT/Hyjal paladin healers usually run high on overhealing? As my stats have gone up I've noticed an increase in my overhealing by a significant amount. Any threads anywhere else in regards to this?
Basically when you have better gear on the same fight you will try to heal more which will also result in more overhealing. When your gear is weak you put more effort into healing when it actually helps and avoid overhealing, when your gear is better you allow more overhealing to allow better safety, as in you let heals land just in case even though you think most likely someone else's heal will land first. Having more overhealing isn't nescessarily worse than less overhealing if your effective healing is actually higher and you're not losing people becuase you went oom.
Hrmm since there isnt a healing in general thread i thought i'd bring this up
do you guys have a good system of splitting up healing assignments, my guild unfortunately runs with ~4-5 pallies, 0-1 druids, 2-3 priests, 1-2 shammies.
How do you guys usually assign healing assignments? I usually name 3 pallies on MT with the 3rd on assist. Assign a shammy/COH priest to the melee group. But thats about it. Then just let everyone else assist the raid.
Basically when you have better gear on the same fight you will try to heal more which will also result in more overhealing. When your gear is weak you put more effort into healing when it actually helps and avoid overhealing, when your gear is better you allow more overhealing to allow better safety, as in you let heals land just in case even though you think most likely someone else's heal will land first. Having more overhealing isn't nescessarily worse than less overhealing if your effective healing is actually higher and you're not losing people becuase you went oom.
Ah makes sense. I have found myself Not stopping my heals becasue I really never have Mana issues. My guild is currently working on 4/9 BT and 4/5 Arch so we really havent gotten to the truly hard stuff yet though.
Hrmm since there isnt a healing in general thread i thought i'd bring this up
do you guys have a good system of splitting up healing assignments, my guild unfortunately runs with ~4-5 pallies, 0-1 druids, 2-3 priests, 1-2 shammies.
How do you guys usually assign healing assignments? I usually name 3 pallies on MT with the 3rd on assist. Assign a shammy/COH priest to the melee group. But thats about it. Then just let everyone else assist the raid.
This is a general case, some fights will be better to handle otherwise.
Druids tend to excel on targets taking a steady stream of healing where there aren't a ton of healers spamming the target. Most fights, this means the tank(s). See: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17783-druid_raiding_tree/
Shamans excel at raid healing, so that's their primal location.
Priests (especially CoH spec priests) do a better job raid healing than paladins.
Paladins can raid heal, but generally do better on MT healing, especially when you don't have the raid with blessing of light. You mentioned you have 4-5 paladins, so most to all of the raid will have light at this point. Priests can still generate higher HPS to the raid than paladins.
So put druid(s) on the tank(s), then add paladins as needed. Start with shaman on raid healing, and add priests as necessary. Some fights you'll have paladins trickle onto raid healing, others will have priests trickle onto MT healing.
Last edited by Zraknul : 02/06/08 at 2:40 PM.
Reason: Added link to tree thread.
This is a general case, some fights will be better to handle otherwise.
Druids tend to excel on targets taking a steady stream of healing where there aren't a ton of healers spamming the target. Most fights, this means the tank(s). See: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17783-druid_raiding_tree/
Shamans excel at raid healing, so that's their primal location.
Priests (especially CoH spec priests) do a better job raid healing than paladins.
Paladins can raid heal, but generally do better on MT healing, especially when you don't have the raid with blessing of light. You mentioned you have 4-5 paladins, so most to all of the raid will have light at this point. Priests can still generate higher HPS to the raid than paladins.
So put druid(s) on the tank(s), then add paladins as needed. Start with shaman on raid healing, and add priests as necessary. Some fights you'll have paladins trickle onto raid healing, others will have priests trickle onto MT healing.
We're abit overload on paladins of course. we make do with what we have.
I guess my question is, do you guys out there have more granular control over raid healing?
i.e. have an actual healer watch a specific group etc.
or do you kind of leave people to their own devices? I know what each class can do but its how much direction you have to give them. of course that will change depending upon your guild intelligence. Would be nice to hear everyone's general healing strat.
Unless the damage is predictable and hits every group equally and 1 healer no more no less is required to heal that damage per group, then you could assign healers to groups. Most fights (at least all fights that come to my mind atm) aren't like that and assigning healers to group will cause temporary overloads on some healers while the others will be left with nothing to heal. Not to mention other problems like a healer dying or being otherwise temporarily incapacitated or out of range will cause trouble that could be easily avoided if you wouldn't assing healers by groups.
Some fights are very healing intensive and require healing assignments, however assigning healers to parties per-se is pretty much never a good idea. And even if you assign it's often good to have people who aren't assigned to anything specific if the fight allows.
There is no "best" stat. Crit is good in situations, Mp5 is good in situations, healing is just generally good. I'm a fan of the "balance" method. If you really want to maximize regen Mp5 will give you more mana (since technically Illumination is not a mana restore, it just reduces the cost of the spell).
For healing assignments, there are only a few fights where we usually have healers assigned by group (Naj'entus, RoS, Illidan P2). Most of the time raid healing is a free-for-all. We generally have our 2 Pallys and a druid on the MT and then everyone else is either assigned to an offtank (depending on fight) or is free to heal as needed.
We do often assign Shamans specifically to raid healing though and our Paladins specifically to tank healing, because that is where both classes excel. However you are running with 3 more holy pallys than we are, so your assignments will be much more different.
If *anything*, healing is the "balance" stat, giving both efficiency and HPS...
I wouldn't go that far. Healing only gives you HPS if your target requires more healing (anything else goes into OH), and it only gives you more efficiency by possibly reducing the number of heals you need in a fight (though this is largely subjective, as a tank taking 2k damage every 2 seconds will still always need 2k healing every 2 seconds, regardless of how hard your FoL hits for). A balance means you have good healing, but also have enough regen to adapt to changing circumstances on the fly.
It all depends on your gear and playstyle though. Like I said, there is no "best" stat.
It seems unusual for a crit stacking palidan to express spell crit in terms of FoL. Are you stacking crit and using FoL as your main healing spell?
Apologies, I just meant to express that I had ~36% Holy spellcrit, with the extra 2% to FoL from the Gladiator gloves, and since the downrank nerf, I thought that most paladins ran with FoL as their main healing spell. I have Sanctified Light 3/3 as well, so I currently have ~42% HL crit too, but I rarely use HL unless it's a specific fight like Illidan P2.
Apologies, I just meant to express that I had ~36% Holy spellcrit, with the extra 2% to FoL from the Gladiator gloves, and since the downrank nerf, I thought that most paladins ran with FoL as their main healing spell. I have Sanctified Light 3/3 as well, so I currently have ~42% HL crit too, but I rarely use HL unless it's a specific fight like Illidan P2.
There is little reason to stack crit if your running mostly FoL. All the spread sheets will show you'll see a lot more raw throughput from stacking +heal then you will with crit, and the efficiency bonus should be of little concern seeming your already using the most efficient spell available. Add to that spell haste in 2.4 and you should be able to see a significant improvement to your HPS without destroying your mana pool too badly.
Although the BoL down ranking penalty hurt us badly, there is still paladins around (such as myself) who favour crit and chain-casting down ranked HLs. With your crit rate your in a fairly strong position to give it a try, add 2nd pieces of T6 and you'll be approaching the 50% HL crit mark. My stats are 2200 healing, 44% HL crit, 100mp5 and I have no problems landing HL8-11 for the duration of a fight. You'll be potting more often and have significantly higher over healing, but the cost of pots is insignificant compared to the cost of wiping and over healing can often be closely related to under wiping.
No I figured my itemization wasn't the greatest for FoL, just wanted to try what max spellcrit would do, I'll take your suggestion and start trying to downrank HL, mind giving me an idea of what ranks you cast/spam mostly? Or do you just do 8-11?
Rank V is about the same as your normal FoL. I personally also have ranks VII, IX, and XI bound to use depending on the situation.
Downranking HL takes a lot of practice to be effective. You don't really "spam" as much as an FoL build unless mana is no object. Cast-canceling and using different ranks for different amounts of healing are the two major differences.
Rank V is about the same as your normal FoL. I personally also have ranks VII, IX, and XI bound to use depending on the situation.
Downranking HL takes a lot of practice to be effective. You don't really "spam" as much as an FoL build unless mana is no object. Cast-canceling and using different ranks for different amounts of healing are the two major differences.
How can you talk about downranking yet claim +healing can go into overheal? It just doesn't fit. More +healing will provide more HPS, we all know that, as your heals are bigger. More +healing will provide more efficiency becuase they make you heal for more with the same mana. If your heals are too big and will overheal you can always use a lower rank. And even if you only use 1 spell of same rank, the % of the times you'll overheal with more +healing has the same effect as the % of the times you'll underheal with less +healing requiring another heal. So I have to call on a "reliable boost to how much your heals heal for will cause more overhealing" a rather bad argument. Even moreso coming from a person who favors crit, which is a NOT reliable increase to how much your heals heal for and thus results in overhealing much much much more often.
I'm going to request from now on Galz you proofread a bit more, because I'm really starting to have trouble understanding what you're saying.
All I was saying is that +healing is an effective HPS increase until your heals hit harder than the incoming damage. Once that happens that healing provides absolutely nothing extra. Healing does not provide regen when you're FoL is always hitting for 500 more than the incoming damage. It doesn't provide anything really, other than wasted stat points (and if you even begin to talk about downranking FoL we are going to have problems). Crit, even though it does overheal more, provides cost reduction to your heals. Mp5 always restores mana but doesn't increase throughput. So look at it. Yuo have one stat that increases pure throughput, one that increases both throughput and "regen", and one that is pure regen. Balance.
Again though, you're talking paper theory, I'm talking in-game experience.
If you're really having an issue with your FoLs being too big, you can always downrank them. However people never do it becuase you never realistically get "too big FoLs" nor will you ever even care about your efficiency in a situation where your FoLs are "too big". This completely destroys the "+healing => more overhealing => regen is better" argument as there is no real situation where it would be true.
mp5 directly = mana
crit directly = hps + mana
+healing directly = hps
That's all he's saying. Disagreeing with him is more confusing than enlightening.
Lead of with something like "While the above is strictly true, the huge hps increases from +healing more than offset the lack of mana regeneration provided by the other two stats."
mp5 = possible to do more healing when mana is an issue.
crit = possible to do more healing when mana is an issue.
+healing = possible to do more healing when mana is an issue (with a small added bonus of allowing more FoL/downranking) and do more reliable burst when mana is not an issue.
haste = do much more reliable burst and have very very slight ability to do more healing when mana is an issue by FoL/downranking more.
I think this represents the stats in a much more realistic way.
I'd add 'unreliable burst' to crit and add a part about how it cannot be counted upon to keep someone alive and may or may not overheal. But when it doesnt overheal much, it still is more like a 'yay that came in handy', instead of something you can depend upon (much like the scarab proc actually).
That's pretty irrelevant when discussing what they do, directly.
mp5 directly leads to increased mana available. Granted, it also let's you get mana while casting and has a point of diminishing returns, but that's secondary: in terms of direct benefits, it gives you mana, directly.
Crit is the same way. It can be reliably entrusted to give you a certain amount of extra hps at a given percentage over the course of several thousand heals, in addition to giving you mana at the same rate. Directly. Everything you said is 100% true, but irrelevant to the discussion.
02/05/08, 9:05 PM
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