zixa

I havnt found Imp Conc to be overly useful in pve tbh.. It shines in 5v5 but thats about it.. Id even rather have Imp Hoj in 2s.. But Imp RF is extremely useful in situations like say for example P2 Vashj. Paly up top with RF keeps adds off your priests and druid healers.

Holy shock changes are welcome, even though it could of been buffed even more and not of been OP'd in any way.

And one other thing I wanted to comment while Im posting.. I think crit gets way too undervalued on this board. Right now Im going all healing gems yes but only until I get upgrades that will allow me to drop some healing for some crit and still stay above a certain healing breakpoint, 2k atm for the level of content Im on.. Dunno how many times a clutch crit has saved a tank. And the mana cost reduction from critting is just gravy. Only 43% of healing actually affecting flash is kind of beat imo.

 

vorda

So you'r saying that if you hadent been lucky and that HL wouldnt have critted (with 2 pc t6, my hl crit rate is around 40%) you would have wiped?

Does that sound like a good healing situation to you?

 

zixa

Well if only a crit would of saved a tank my heal hitting for 150 more or so wouldnt of either. I guess Im in a situation where its only like 3 good healers in my guild that carry the bulk.. So if im landing big crits all over the place it really helps keep things stable.

 

Rerolled

It has been shown repeatedly that +healing will increase the average size of your heals more per itemization point than crit rating, even ignoring the random nature of crits. If you're going to make statements like this, please have math to back them up.

 

Peryle

I'm a bit confused. I took a look at the math for spell haste and cast time reductions for Holy Light used recently in this thread and it appears that the reduction is applied to the base cast time, and then the reduction for Light's Grace is applied. I did some casual searching (especially of the original post) and the only statement regarding the interaction of spell haste with Holy Light is that it applies to the base cast time, even with 4pt5, but then it notes that this is no longer true as of 2.3.0.

So - has this been tested since 2.3? On the PTR? Or is the math I'm looking at based on an assumption?

 

galzohar

I think they said it was no longer true for a reason. Hadn't tested it myself though, the again it's really hard to mess up such an easy to perform test for me to doubt the results.

 

zixa

And, thats not what Im even talking about. So you like your heals to hit a little harder for what, meters? I'll tell you if my flash hits for 100 more thats 100 more overheal almost every cast. Where's sws display the clutch crits meter?

 

flyingtoastr

All I'm running for haste in my normal Healing kit is [Dark Blessing] because my guild has only had 1 HoA and 1 Crystal Spire drop so far.

Right now though (live) without LG it displays my HL cast time as 2.45 seconds. When LG is active it displays it as 1.96 seconds. It could be caused by simple rounding, but I'll ninja some hearts and craft the dawnsteel stuff tomorrow to check which one it affects if we need it.

 

Arthaal

I actually was similarly curious about spell haste and it's effect on holy light:

Haste is applied after talents that reduce cast time in the form: Talent X reduces the cast time for spell Y by Z amount of seconds.

Light's grace is different and, following some testing (which you can easily replicate now that hasted spell cast time appears if you moueover the spell in your spell book under various spell haste effects), I'm pretty much convinced the spell haste is applied to 2.5 seconds outside Light's Grace, but to the new 2.0 seconds cast time within Light's Grace. This obviously would impact the value on haste on throughput for Holy Light, bringing it closer to the Flash of Light value based on the 1.5 seconds cast time.

Edit: As poster above mentionned, haste % is rounded and cast time is only given to 2 decimal places, but I carried out tests with quite a bit more spell haste gear: Dark Blessing, Brooch of Nature's Mercy, Cloak of Ancient Rituals, Hauberk of the Empire's Champion, Girdle of Lordaeron's Fallen and Signet of the Quiet Forest. I'm currently at work and can't check the exact numbers. Will edit later with math.

 

galzohar

The game would have to round numbers in a very, very strange way for haste to work based off of the 2.5s even when LG is up at the same time of having 2.45s cast without LG and 1.96s cast without LG. I would say it's a lot more reasonable that it simply works off of the 2s, as had already been mentioned on this very thread (and maybe even patch notes? don't remember) than for it to have some extremely strange rounding (heck I can't even think of a possible roudning system that could cause that if you assume it works off of the 2.5s cast).

Expected cast time with 30 haste rating:
No LG: 2.5/(1+30/1570)=2.453
LG pre-2.3: 2.5/(1+30/1570)-0.5=1.953
LG post-23: (2.50-0.5)/(1+30/1570)=1.962

pre-2.3 just doesn't make sense if you see 1.96 in game, although since the rounding system can be wierd sometimes I'll only say I'm 99% certain that the 2.3 "fix" actaully exists based on that data alone.

Also dark blessing is the best in the game until vashj/HoA/spire, - in fact it even beats the vashj and HoA on HPS by far, but loses a little on efficiency.

 

Endoscient

As said in the original post and one by me earlier in the thread, since 2.3 haste is applied after Light's Grace.

 

MasterDecoy

While doing my calculations for spell haste in order to decide what spell haste gear to pick up, i've stumbled across some minor calculation problems. I use Dr.Damage for easy summary of the average heal of the different ranks.

As we know, BoL does a flat increase in Healing, so "up to 185 extra healing" indeed means the average heal goes up by 185. According to Dr. Damage, this is affected by Healing Light (12% heal increase in the Holy tree), making it 207 more average heal. The Libram of Souls Redeemed increases this value by 105, according to Dr.Damage this number is not affected by Healing Light, making it 312 more average heal overall with BoL and the libram on FoL 7.

Are those numbers correct? Or does anyone have any other information? I'm trying to calculate, how much spell haste is needed to raise FoL 6 to the HpS value of FoL 7 with different levels of healup and with/without light and the libram.

 

DarKNecross

It's not since 2.3. It's always been that way as far back as 11 months ago when testing Scarab's proc.

[For ease, sCrit = SpellCrit and sHaste = SpellHaste]
I was putting all the new items together to see what kind of stats would be achievable. Overall, it's pretty impressive, but the problem is we end up losing a lot of sCrit with the new gear.
Here's what I got so far with what's known:
(Unbuffed)
11,116MP
+2526 Healing
18.01% sCrit (23% with Holy)
197 Mp5 while casting
182 sHaste (1.33 FoL, 1.77 HL)
[gems were 22heal in reds, 11heal2mp5 in blues, 10crit in yellows]
So it seems as though all the itemization that used to go into sCrit is being tossed into sHaste. If you take that 182 sHaste and convert it to straight sCrit, we'd gain an extra 8.24%, which is a little more than what the norm is now, assuming 25% sCrit is the norm.
It's not bad, I guess, since Spell Haste is great for HPS.

Just for kicks, I entered in all the new Spell Haste gear to see what I could come up with:
(Unbuffed)
11,116MP
+2420 Healing
11.77% Spell Crit (16.77% with Holy)
170 Mp5 while casting
439 Spell Haste (1.08 FoL, 1.44 HL)
[gems were s.haste except for meta requirement]
Of course, the spell haste set is using a lot of Shaman items. Brainhealing bastards.

I guess it ends up being the toss-up - do you want the guaranteed HPS increase from Spell Haste instead of the 'chance' 'overheal' HPS increase from sCrit? Do you take the loss of Illumination and the mana usage increase from sHaste, and do you really need the regen since you're pushing almost 200mp5 (add 22 from the Libram) without sacrificing other stats?

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Saved

This really has me intrigued. Unfortunately none of the character build sites have incorporated the new 2.4 items (for obvious reasons). Does the build you posted in the above quote still include 2 pieces of t6? If it does, then making the switch to haste gear may have even more benficial effects depending on your playstyle. I have spent the majority of my raiding experience as a FoL advocate, but after looking at these numbers, it seems to me that there is no reason not to make this gear switch. Unfortunately I'm decent at interpreting the math and not so decent at producing it correctly.

However, I took a look at the benefits of switching from a FoL playstyle to a HL haste-augmented playstyle.

Positive benefits:


Libram Switching: Librams alone provide a great deal of versatility for us now. [Libram of Mending] is an easy switch in, so that's an extra 22mp5. [Libram of Absolute Truth] is the crux of this build (We all have one by now, correct?). We can also switch in [Libram of Souls Redeemed] for healing intensive fights.

Versatility with downranking = Better efficiency: I usually use ranks 7-9 when downranking for certain fights (Illidan p2, Council, Shahraz). I'm a fan of smaller steady heals (which is why I prefer FoL at this time). This would require some tweaking to your setup to match my personal taste. Seeing as the new libram changes add to the overall efficiency of HL, down/upranking seems more advantageous than before.

Light's Grace: It will almost always be up. If you already use HL quite a bit, this probably isn't as big of an issue. I usually have it up, but there's always the possibility that winding up that HL could be .5 seconds too late.

Effectively utilizing 2pc t6 bonus, as well as sanctified light: Applying an extra 11% crit by vastly increasing HL usage is a huge bonus over a FoL playstyle. I thought I would bring this up since the setup you have listed above would bump your setup to 34% sCrit.

Global Cooldown Reduction: pretty self explanatory.

Maximum Burst HPS: HL11's HPS will go through the roof; this would be useful for emergency healing situations, as well as planned burst healing (see Gurtogg). Paired with Divine Illumination - amazing HPS/Mana.


I had a very difficult time working with the healing efficiency spreadsheet since it's not updated to include the 2.3 BoL changes (from what I can tell) and the changes to [Libram of Absolute Truth]. I would greatly appreciate any assistance with this. I would definitely be willing to trade some spell crit for increased HPS and regen, especially since my own playstyle would utilize SL and 2pc t6 bonuses at a much higher rate.

 

DarKNecross

The set was using the new offset pieces of T6, so you keep the bonus. Actually, looking back on it, you could swap out one piece of gear and retain the 4P bonus for FoL.

[edit] You've actually got me thinking about the whole libram swapping thing. I just redid all my macros to include Libram swaps -
Libram of Light (Naxx is OP) for Flash of Light
Libram of Grace (another preBC gem) for Cleanse
Libram of Abs. Truth for Holy Light
Libram of Mending by itself (to be clicked whenever the buff is going to fade)

http://crimson-guild.com

 

ojoj

I was just checking the new badge rewards and started thinking I might want the shaman belt more than the paladin one.
What do you guys think?

Chest
-13 sta
+7 int
-43 sc
+21 heal

Legs
-7 sta
-5 int
+7 heal

Belt
-5 sta
-28 sc
+10 mp5
+13 heal

I ignored socket bonuses on these comparisons, but the shaman gear has more more red whereas the paladin gear has more blue.

 

Sumada

I think your numbers are just a little off on the cast time...I thought casting time = base casting time/(1+(sHaste/1570)) was how casting time was calculated from spellhaste?

From that forumla:

182 Spell Haste Rating: 1.5/(1+(182/1570))= 1.34 FoL cast time; 2/(1+(182/1570))=1.79 HL cast time
439 Spell Haste Rating: 1.5/(1+(439/1570))=1.17 FoL cast time; 2/(1+(439/1570))= 1.56 HL cast time

I suppose it's not a huge difference, but it just struck me as odd because I had a conversation with a guildmate the other day about how much spellhaste you would have to stack to get down to 1 second FoLs.

I haven't really managed to get my hands on a lot of sHaste gear to play with, partly because I'm kind of wary of taking some of the BT/Hyjal sHaste gear that seems to scrap regen/sCrit for sHaste...a lot of the new stuff from sunwell though seems to have regen/sCrit and sHaste on it, though, so it seems like it would be worth grabbing when I get to that level of content.

 

Lir

I just wanted to add these to the list.

[Iridescent Fire Opal] - Heroic Ramparts - (+11 healing +4 spell crit)
[Royal Tanzanite] - Heroic Slave pens - (+11 healing +2 Mp5)

Both will be changing in 2.4 to not be unique equipped. Works well for activating metas early on when the best healing gear doesn't have many if any sockets.

 

DarKNecross

I used 1.5*(1-(sHaste/1570))
Most of the Sunwell gear trades sCrit for sHaste, since the mp5 seems to be in large supply. Hopefully the extra Mp5 outweighs the loss of sCrit and the mana consumption increase from sHaste.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

galzohar

11 healing 4 int gem from shattered halls will also be farmable and is generally better than the 11 healing 4 crit.

 

Sumada

That's right, I should have said "since sunwell haste gear has mp5."

Well, lets see...

With [Libram of Absolute Truth] (I'm assuming this gives -84 mana cost to all ranks):
HL11: (756 mana) 378mps (mana per second) @ 2.0; 422.35mps @ 1.79
HL9: (576 mana) 288mps @ 2.0; 321.79mps @ 1.79
HL7: (381 mana) 190.5mps @ 2.0; 212.85mps @ 1.79
HL5: (191 mana) 95.5mps @ 2.0; 106.70mps @ 1.79
HL4: (106 mana) 53mps @ 2.0; 59.22mps @ 1.79

FoL7: (180 mana) 120mps @ 1.5; 134.33mps @ 1.34

195mp5 = 39mps, for comparison. It's mostly just food for thought though, I guess, since you'd have to also take into account lost spellcrit from gear and how much mp5 your gear had before, as well as a bunch of other things like how much of the time you're actually landing a heal every 1.79 seconds. Its about 44mps (220mp5) extra on highest rank holy light, but only 6mps (30 mp5) extra on HL4 and 14mps (70mp5) on FoL7, though, based on this.

 

Saved

I have updated the original Paladin Healing Efficiency to reflect the changes to BoL and new 2.4 libram changes.

As Jebuss pointed out, this is assuming [Libram of Absolute Truth] gives -84 mana to all ranks of Holy Light. I also added the 2 piece t6 bonus, but did not add the 4 piece bonus. I tried to have the base numbers reflect Sigurd's estimated stat projections, but I ended up toning the +heal down a bit. I also updated the graphs to match these changes (under the same assumptions, of course) and bring them a bit closer to a normal gear setting. If you have any questions or my math is incorrect, please let me know.

Pally_Healing_Efficiency_0.xls - FileFront.com

 

galzohar

Filefront seems to always give me errors so I can't even look at it...

 

flyingtoastr

Worth noting that the three new pieces of Lightbringer were all reitemized. No stamina, but lots of healing, Mp5, crit, and Haste on all the items.

Check it out here

 

MasterDecoy

Compared to the old screenshot found here you get:

-99 Stamina (-1089 HP with Kings)
+ 44 Spellcrit Rating
+ 9 MP5

They can't be serious with this, even the feral druid set lost its stamina, making it effectivly useless for tanking purposes, but still got the green extra Armor on it.

Perhaps it is an approach to make these set items worthless in PvP, but there are enough PvE situations where you don't like losing the 99 stamina (or the 82 you have right now with Girlde of Stromgardes Hope, Blessed Adamantite Bracers and Pearl Inlaid Boots).

Edit: Typos/Grammar