Stolidus

Yes, it reduces the time you and your party is silenced by 30%, meaning howl of azgalor is only a 3.5 second silence (is that right? I always thought the full time was 10 seconds, but wowhead says it's 5), which is very important to keeping your tank alive on a fight that has a very real chance of your tank being gibbed as you progress.

To put that in perspective, a lot of people use max SR to mitigate the chance of being silenced to have a better chance at keeping the tank up. Reducing that effect by 30% is then clearly worth a good 20+ mp5 and 100 or so healing on that fight, if you consider the 30% silence time reduction to be equal to 40% of the stat loss for SR.

Also, as rerolled said, it's nice for pvp.

 

Altirias

I aggree that you chose your libram according to a given situation, but hey, we're theorycrafting here, so it implies some sort of thinking just for the sake of thinking ; it's nothing but intellectual curiosity

Mainly what I do is :
use BBoN when healing the raid ('cause they don't always have BoL on them)
use LoSR when healing MT and going through easy content on witch I now I won't have mana issue with my current mp5
use Libram of mending on mana intensive fights

The thing is that the libram of mending gives a fat mp5 bonus. yet it is useless during the buff duration. So I made some libram swapping macros and it works fine. The trick is now to define witch libram is better for each spell to put them in the macros.

For the moment, I use libram of mending on a deranked holy light (rank 4) that I use to refresh Light's grace (so I just switch in my spell cycle between FL7 and HL4). Then I use LoSR with both FH7 and HL11 since I am always healing the MT who has always a BoL on him.

But my question remains open, since I couldn't find a clear answer to it.
So let's sum it up :

Given this context (healing MT with BoL in raid situation), witch libram is better to be used with FH7, HL11 and HL4 / HL5 ?
2.4 assumptions :
- LoM buff duration increased to 30 seconds
- LoSR nerf on FL (+60 vs + 120, given that BBoN provides +79 heal)

any help with the modelisation and math is most welcome.

 

Xetron

Hello guys, I want to support the old argument which gear/stat you should be stacking in favor of +heal. I am actually a friend of the empirical approach when discussing such (from a mathematical standpoint) difficult to describe situations as an entire raid.
Well as you can see in the following link I am actually the Paladin with the highest +heal value of my Server (Destromath EU):

My profile

Now that gearset (I know I am lacking the mainhand but Illidan just won't drop it ...) enables me to top the healmeter in a majority of Encounters in our weekly farm runs:

Here is a WWS Parse to support that

WWS Parse of Illidan + full hyal run

(buffed stats being about 2600 +heal and 20% crit with BoL up on all targets)


Even on Illidan, which is an ae-healing intensive fight it is not impossible to surpass shamans and priests.
Now I know that a parse of one guild can't stand as sample size for all others but has somebody probably some parses of crit-stacking paladins doing very well in the meters ?
Is that even gear related in the first place ? I basically want to know what I should be going for comes Sunwell and beyond.



PS:
1.To negate some arguments that will probably be coming, No our Shamans, Priests don't suck or something and I am loosing against them often enough :P (BB and EoS come to mind)
2. I know that topping the meter should not be the first target for a healer but to me (I play since the korean closed beta of vanilla wow) it always seemed as if healers performing good there will generally also be good in not letting the tank die or running out of ae-effects and therelike.

 

vorda

Meters are for the largest part not gear related. That 200 more healing or 4% more crit wont make any difference in a well oiled healing team with strict assignments. Obviously were going to do great on the meters if the entire raid has BoL and your free to do FFA healing, but this case is an exception for nearly everyone.

 

Xetron

Actually Im doing the assignments in that guild and assign all Paladins (including myself) to the tanks (exceptions being Archimonde and Winterchill I guess). FFA healing is done by the shamans, sometimes priests.

I must admit though that even then I'm not mindlessly spamming the tank but also throw the occasioal flash on a raidmember.

 

Quozzy

Removed.

 

Darion

I'd have to agree with this sentiment. I happen to be a Mp5 Paladin. I have upward of 300 Mp5 casting full raid buffed and go over that when the party composition is favorable (ie: SP or Shaman). But my +healing is in the low 1700's. I almost always lead the heal meters. My opinion is that total raid healing depends on your healing role, your understanding of the fight, and your reaction time --> much more than your equipment.

Darion

 

Xetron

So why are we doing the whole calculation thingy then :P

 

galzohar

The fact that gear is the last thing that matters doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

 

Darion

lol...smart!@# I do it because I've controlled the other variables as best I can and this is one more I can fiddle with. And I enjoy trying to understand things at a deeper level. And I'm a masochist that loves inflicting pain on myself. That's a good thing - right?

Darion

 

Darchrow

Long time reader, first time poster.

As one can see in my profile, having Spellsurge on my Scepter isn't the most appealing thing in the world, there's a backstory behind that but I won't get into it. Not calling Spellsurge bad by any means, just not what I should be enchanting for with my gear/progress level (4/5MH 1/9BT with 1/2 night in BT) in my opinion. Now I have read the discussion back a few pages on Spellsurge and using Combat Weapon Swapper, but I haven't really found a suitable secondary mace to use in combination with Lightfathom quite yet. Here's the question: what would be an ideal "backup" to put the Spellsurge on when 2.4 comes around for us paladins, taking the Shaste changes into account?

Likely available options would be
[Dark Blessing]
[Hammer of Atonement]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Salvation]
[Gavel of Naaru Blessings] come 2.4,
or even [Shard of the Virtuous]

With no math to back this up, common sense tells me that the Shaste on the Dark Blessing would make the logical choice, cutting down on the amount of time you would be needing to use the weapon. Although, it would be foolish to not acknowledge the 15% procrate, which does pose the question of how worth the Shaste is the loss of other non-HPS stats with the Hammer, for example. Would that be the end-all, or should I be more concerned with throughput? Not saying that having multiple sets is out of the question, but which would be the best choice to aim for first?

 

Nurru

Don't do this. It just makes the rest of us cringe because it's usually a precursor to a terrible post.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

vorda

I would put spellsurge on your Scepter and 81 healing on any of the ones you linked actually. (besides the shard of course)
I personally still prefer Atonement over everything you linked, but I'm probably undervaluing haste currently.

 

galzohar

If for most fights you need more HPS rather than efficiency, use dark blessing with +healing most of the time and use the addon to swap in spellsurged scepter when you don't.

If efficiency is your issue most of the time, you have the 2nd best efficiency weapon in the game, so keep that as your main weapon, with your spellsurge weapon being the best of the list which would be dark blessing...

So basically if you want more HPS, healing on dark blessing as main weapon and spellsurge on scepter as spellsurge weapon. If you want efficiency healing on scepter and spellsurge on dark blessing.

Note that for efficiency having even a rather poor spellsurge weapon would be worthwhile - for example even your shard of the virtous with spellsurge should be worth swapping in if mana is an issue. Your max HPS burst will take a hit (although having your "oh-shit" heal macro swap in your +heal weapon can help with that, however I'm not sure how well the addon supports it, and burst is usually your previously casted heal + your emergency heal so you're still losing some burst).

Overall it depends on what your raid needs - both in terms of your mana VS your HPS as well as your party's mana. It just seems that the risk of death by needing to swap healing targets mid-cast (which would not be possible due to weapon swapping causing the GCD to not get canceled when your cast is canceled), the less consistent HPS, and sheer effort and cost stop them from having a spellsurge weapon. Having one is far from a bad idea, though, and if efficiency is your number one problem, having spellsurge on swap is probably the best thing you can do gear-wise to help it.

 

MasterLoco

Just like Vorda said healing meters aren't really what you should be focusing as a healer. We mostly use them from an indication of who is slacking on trash etc.

Like mentioned earlier in about 80-90% of all boss fight you will be assigned to tank healing. In those cases it is your job as a paladin to keep a steady HPS stream up. Ofcourse I can go heal like a retard & whipe everyone of the healing charts on some fights (Naj'entus & Illidari Council slip into mind). Then again in alot of situations paladins get completly overpowerd by chain healing & circle of healing (Teron, RoS, Bloodboil, Illidan Phase 2). I mean why would you as a paladin do another healers job? There is a reason why paladins are the best choice when it comes to pure HPS generation. Which is usualy best used on the main tank (doing this you're position on effective healing meter will be low)

What's an MP5 paladin rly? We got one of those in our guild to, he did play druid pre-TBC, maby that's where he got the idea he's in need of mp5. Where else could anyone get the idea from that they would be needing mp5 on a paladin? The only thing you get as a paladin is an Insightfull Earthstorm Diamond for 15mana reduction on your spells, you socket 2 x 11/9healing 2mp5 for the meta and for the rest you stack max healing all the way. And this really isn't about gear lvl. This applys from karazhan lvl pretty much.
I mean as a paladin there is no way you're gonna go out of mana if you don't heal like a compleet loonatick. Even if I'm in the main tank group on a fight like Illidari Council where I'm pretty much spamming heals non-stop (not just flash heals) I will never go oom. Really... there is no way you can go oom if you pop a mana potion every time the CD is gone. So plz, do yourself & your fellow raiders a favor... reduce that mp5 drasticaly & get yourself 2000+ healing rather then the 300mp5s with the 1700 healing you got right now. It'll make you ALOT more effective.

 

Feya

In lieu/favor of MP5, I have found Crit to be a worthwhile replacement in terms of specifically geming for or seeking gear that provides it. I can get a base spell crit up to 30% with the right trinkets in full raid buffs. This means I crit with Holy Light at a steady 46% (30 + 5% holy, 6% holy light, 5% 2pc tier 6). Thats over half of my heals going out being refunded in part back to my mana pool. This also simultaneously boosts my HPS on fights like Illidari Council, which in my opinion is clutch in the spot-healing position I usually fill.

Granted, this is my opinion, but I find mp5 to be a waste of effort for paladins who usually spam heals the entirety of a boss fight. I also like the combo I get with Sextant of Unstable Currents which brings even more +healing to the table.

 

Stolidus

I may be missing something, but just how does 46% equal >50%?

And while I suppose an inflated crit rate could be useful in amplifying your throughput in a meaningful manner on spot healing, that is typically a worse place to put your paladins, and thus probably shouldn't be your gearing goal.

 

Mirkael

Playing alittle with the Paladin Heal V3.8 Chart, it seems that it considers Mp5 to be VASTLY superior to anything else.

Even 4MP5 gems are greatly superior to any other using this chart.

I'm looking for improvements for my gear, manly cause im in lack of mana when im MT healing without a Shadow priest. But if i follow this chart, all i need to look for is Mp5, loads and loads of Mp5, forget socket bonus and use all 4 Mp5 gems. But this dont seems that right to me.

I know that there is "crit pallys" and "mp5 pallys" in this forum.
Im looking for the best way to improve my gear without T6 Drops, since my DKP is alittle short compared with all the priests and locks on the guild. (~10)
Maybe some gem changes, or a new trinket. Maybe something from ZA? Im not sure.

I would like to receive advices from experienced Pallys here that do MT heal role on BT.

( armory: The World of Warcraft Armory )

 

Quozzy

The difference in mana between FoL spam, and FoL spam with regular HL7/9 thrown in is quite large amount. Socketing for 4mp5 gems will give you possibly 25~ extra mp5 while nerfing your +heal by 100~, over a 20min boss (Illidan) that gives you 6000 extra mana to play with. That's 13~ extra HL9's in 20mins at the cost of +100heal.

I give an example like this because I am often in the MT group with no mana support, so I really have to watch my mana. Socketing for mp5 is a bad idea, it won't make a huge difference in your mana pool, and it will nerf your throughput.

 

vorda

I really dont get where this is comming from. Equip 2 regen trinkets (in my case, Pendant of the violet eye and the ZA mp5 trinket), avoid using max rank HLs unless really needed, try using the badges mp5 libram with a macro/addon and above all, dont be cheap on mana pots.

I have 2 11 heal 2mp5 gems, everything else is heal/int or 22 heal. I'm regularly in the MT group on council, illidan and naj'entus (which is by far the most mana demanding I think).
If you are really having problems with mana, ask for a promote and swap yourself mid fight with a paladin who is having a mana support group.

Gemming for mp5 is nearly always a sign of bad healing assignments, not maximising raid potential and above all being cheap on mana pots.

 

Quozzy

Sorry vorda, I think you miss-understood me. I do everything that you mentioned including using mana pots on cd, and don't generally have a mana problem myself, although I am not able to use much in the way of HL except in emergencies on certian fights(ie long bosses or mana drain bosses or SR bosses).

But anyway that wasn't the point of my post, I was just saying that you shouldn't socket for mp5.

 

MasterLoco

I can't help but to fully agree with this.

 

galzohar

The reason the spreadsheet prefers mp5 is that you're giving yourself no mana support and completely ignoring HPS. The fact is more HPS allows higher efficiency by not needing HL as much or at least not needing the higher ranks depending on how you play, either way it saves mana to have more HPS. So +healing doesn't only increase efficiency by increasing HPM, it also increases efficiency by increasing HPS, which the spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration.

Even if you include that HPS->efficiency conversion, though, if you give yourself no support beyond mana potions you'll still find MP5 as the best stat if you're having mana problems. Most fights don't have mana problems though or they're at least not bad enough for you to nerf your emergency max burst ability. If you're running oom and never get a shadow priest or any other support, MP5 will help you most, however you should never really be in such a position with a raid that is playing properly.

 

beromar

Sorry to derail the current topic, but has anyone looked at the mace off Eredar Twins? I keep comparing it to the Crystal Spire in an attempt to decide which one is better overall.

Assuming you socket Archon's Gavel with a 22 healing gem, the difference between it and the spire is ~39 healing (including the intellect/healing talents), and 5 MP5. The only thing holding me back from choosing the gavel is the extra effect on the spire which seems more beneficial for MT healing (which is what paladins normally do in raids anyway).

 

Palados

I believe, that values of crit/mp5/heal depend not only on assignement and encounters, but also on general number of healers in the raid and healing classes distrbution. I have crit, heal and mp5 sets of gear (about 2 full bags of healing gear only), but usually go around in balanced set (around 2100heal, 145 mp5 in fight, 20% something crit unbuffed).

Quite some time we had a lot of pally healers (5) and few other classes healers. Therefore I was puting myself quite often on raid or some group healing. There mp5 and especially crit has a big value due to reactive nature of the spot healing, where crit shines. If you are on MT, then +heal is generally better, but it really depend on number of healers you have. If you are healer light raid (and sometimes we are) then FoL spam and maximising efficiency simply won't work. If you are forced to use holy light a lot, then again crit is quite a good stat. Of course you need experience and intuition in HL healing allowing you to minimize overhealing from crits (many high damage abilities are on timer, so you know when you can start casting HL11 for example).

Also stat efficiency depend on the fact if you go oom during the fight. I find it strange, but on Najentus I don't drink a single mana pot and not going oom, while in a Council fight I am screwed and could be oom even drinking mana pots each CD (with mp5 flask and oil). If you go oom no +healing in the world would help you (though I agree that with big +healing you go oom slower due to being casting less often). Therefore you should optimize your gear taking into account your raid playstyle and skills (say slower going out of aoe in council fight means more healing needed) as well as healing setup and assignements.

P. S. Also, about sunwell and all the haste changes - crit is only mp5-like stat/ability that scales with haste nicely. I believe that crit over mp5 is the way to go if you are building high-haste gear.