galzohar

In most fights in the game I don't see myself channeling for 8 seconds without risking someone's death, just like I don't see myself using anything more than 50% of my mana on FoLs. Anyway if a fight did allow you to stay so long without healing anything it probably doesn't require much healing to begin with or is just a very special-case fight where there's actually a decently long enough transition that allows channelling, where the transition actually happens after a significant phase ended and before a significant phase starts.

For example vashj P1->P2 trasntion would look like a good place at first, but fact is most raid setups would enter P2 with full mana anyway. Maybe you could get lucky and get a use during P2 if you're on a side and she decides to shoot the other sides a couple times in a row but I still doubt you can channel it fully without risk, not to mention the actual mana requirements of P2 are quite low (at least if you're assigned to a side), and the real need of that phase is to keep the guys on your side topped off in case she decides to bolt the same side a couple times in a row, which is bit rare but can happen and is enough of a reason to not stop healing most of the time.

You could find other examples where you could possibly channel that trinket where it actually matters but I doubt there will be a significant amount of situations that are enough to actually make the trinket worth wearing. Of course it's not bad to have in your bag just in case you run into that one fight where you decide you can make a good use out of it.

 

Endoscient

That is stupid, you are never going to prevent all tank deaths. If a worse case happens over a long enough period for most fights the tank is going to die. Do a fight like Brutallus and say you should be able to save a tank all the time, sometimes shit just happens. Adding any reasonable amount of +healing you can influence from gear is not going to save your tanks in that situation. You are not going to be able to increase your +healing enough from your gear to reliably prevent all tank deaths, that is just absurd. How much +healing you gain from a balanced set to a stacked healing set, or even from a stacked crit to a stacked healing?

If a tank keeps on dying to burst it isn't because the pally healer on him doesn't have enough +healing, something else is wrong.

The law of large numbers does apply, because we are trying to find the probability of tank death over a large period. Which is ultimately the way to measure your effectiveness of burst healing. You claim that with enough +healing that is 0. I say you can not guarantee that, well maybe if you had over 9000 +healing. Please show me the gear set that with enough +healing that no tank will ever die, with the right strategy/assignments of course.

You say that with enough +heal you can avoid that one unlucky streak with a crush, but it isn't that simple. Sure if the numbers (tank hp, boss damage, etc) work out very well you can tailor a situation where that is true. But it is far from it in majority of real situations.

I actually find regen to be just as important for burst healing as pure throughput. While this might not be nearly as valuable if you always have a shadow priest, but I rarely get one (25% of time probably, gogo tank group ).

How many times does a tank die when you are temporarily spamming max rank Holy Light on him? Almost never. Only fight I can really think of is Brutallus with stomp. How many times has a tank died right after you cast Flash of Light or before your Holy Light could land? A whole lote more. Sure if we were perfect healers that would never happen. But, nobody is perfect and nobody has enough mana to Holy Light everytime that could happen (except maybe fully consumables in a perfect group). The more mana you have the more liberally you can use Holy Light when it is questionable between that and FoL. If am at like 80% mana over half way into the fight I will use Holy Light a lot more to heal the tank up. If I am at like 20 or 30% half way into the fight I will probably stick to FoL and hope for the best. I am not going to keep anyone alive if I am oom half way into the fight.

You can't live in a bubble of just efficiency or burst healing. They both effect each other, there are never fights where mana doesn't matter.

 

Endoscient

Not really true. Say a 2 minute fight. Sure if it is great you have enough burst healing to keep everything alive. It isn't though when you run out of mana after 1-1.5 min (which you can spamming HL11) and people start dying.

 

Tiranar

I wanted to submit our 4/8 Hyjal and 4/1 Black Temple WWS for peer review. I am looking for criticism of my paladins, as I want to ensure that I am optimizing my paladinss in the most efficient way possible. If you need more data, I have plenty more reports available. Thank you in advance for your help.

4/8 Hyjal Wow Web Stats

4/1 Black Temple Wow Web Stats

 

galzohar

While this exceptional fight would make your statement true, I do not know of any such fights. Actually I don't know of any fight that's anything close to that intensiveness+duration. But I agree it's not impossible to make a fight that would be short and still require efficiency, but I already said that your calculations do need to depend on the fight so it's not like I'm ignoring it. It's just a not very useful kind of calculation, but if needed can be done with the same tools that I use, only changing the numbers you plug in.

Nor will crit. If you're looking at chances look at the chance for crit to save him VS chance for +healing to save him at least actually compare them fairly rather than saying "crit=saved, non-crit=death". Although as I've already said it's irrelevent due to the size of burst as a function of its chance is a rapidly decreasing function, while the chance to save the tank from a burst as a function of crit is much closer to linear, and +healing will cut off the function in a much more significant spot. The actual chance to save the tank you're increasing as crit increasing is actually rediculessly small when compared to the chance to save him when you increase +healing considering you're moving the cutoff point slightly of the bursts that are even relevent.

Remember that while increasing healing will never really be enough to make or break the difference except in very large amounts, same can be said about crit.


Regarding efficiency, I never said it's something to ignore - the opposite. I just calculate it seperately becuase it's just a seperate calculation. Say if I see 1 item increasing my efficiency by "10" (points, healing equivalence points or whatever measuring unit you want to use) and by burst by "15" I will most of the time use it over an item that increases efficiency by "5" and burst by "16", but in some extreme cases may pick the "16" burst item instead. Those kinds of comparisions is why it's calculated seperately, in no way am I ignoring neither efficiency nor burst. You just can't mix them together into 1 point equivalence system since the relative value of "1" burst vs the value of "1" efficiecy changes between different fights and different raid setups and it's up to your experience to make the call how much each is worth. What my calculations do is tell you how much burst and how much efficiency you gain from each item by calculating both seperately. And efficiency doesn't effect burst nor the other way around since HPS->efficiency calculations are already included when calculating efficiency, and if you don't have the mana to use your burst ability then you should simply give a higher value to stats that increase efficiency better over stats that increase burst, since like you said, you can't do burst healing with no mana.

 

krodor

An actual analysis of the log indicates that there were two distinct ranks of HL cast. there are heals for 4008-4492 (4222 average) and 5271-5693 (5496). The crits are for 6033-6616 (6214) and 7931-8579 (8166). There are 104 in the first category, and 67 in the second. I'd assume they are ranks 9 and 11. That would assume he spent 124920 total (with a probable reduction of 3707 from a libram).

However that's still a shortfall of 39k, (~570 mp5). If we allow it to be r8 and r10, then we're only looking at 20k from mp5 (~250) which is very plausible (though those ranks aren't believable)


of note, there were 11 gaps of 2.5 or more seconds, and 9 gaps of 3 or more seconds in that sequence.

 

Endoscient

I never said crit will, I am saying that it will improve the chance of your tank living and you are saying you should ignore it in calculating burst healing.

It doesn't matter if the functions or linear or how they scale at all. It matters their values at what different gearings you have. It doesn't matter that if at 4000 +healing no one in your raid will ever did you can not achieve that amount.

You are also increasing how much more healing each heal will do by a insanely small amount. 10% more of your spells crit versus healing healing for 200 more. Approximately equal amounts for +crit and +heal.
How often does a tank die by 200 hp too short? Extremely rarely
How often does a tank die by 3000 hp to little? Pretty common.
I would say from my experiences at look at recount tank deaths the the 2nd case occurs at least 10 times as often as the first, making crits more likely to save your tank.

 

galzohar

Even if a 200 hp short kind of death is much rarer than a 2000 hp short kind of death, you still need to consider 200 bigger heal will cover all of these cases while some crit % will only cover some % of the <2000 HP deaths.

Also if you assume healing stopped at a completely random point in time, random amount of max tank HP and random attacking, if a boss hits for 10k then the number of HP the tank was short of (let's call it X) when he died will be evenly distributed between 0 and 10k. But since healers actually do generally land heals between attacks (or at least for every other attack), X will actually be, on average, closer to 0 then to 10k. And the more healers that are healing, the more likely it'll be even closer to 0.

Keep in mind that most tank deaths are due to healing faliures and not due to a random burst that was impossible to handle, which easily explains why X>1k is a lot more common than X<1k, since if healing isn't happening X gets closer to an even distribution between 0 and the damage of the killing blow. But when we gear we look for cases where people are healing and not for cases where people are not healing - so if you go over WWS make sure you're not including in your statistics deaths that were caused by lack of healing - if you average normalized X (divided by killing blow's damage) over all the WWS reports where the tank didn't get the healing he was supposed to get, you would most likely get not far under 1/2. When you're not healing your spells neither hit nor crit when you're not healing so your gear doesn't matter in those situations, the tank is going to die. Besides calculating probablity for these is compeletely impossible as it's like calculating the chance your mom will distract you from healing the tank in the middle of the fight.

Not to mention WWS reports are often biased as people tend to link to special cases and don't represent the norm too well.

The better healing you got the more likely X is to be close to 0, and therefore the more likely increasing +healing will actually cut off a significant slice of the death possibilities. Even if you assume all crit heals are big enough to prevent a death they'll affect all situations equally while +healing affects the more common ones.

At the end even if I'm totally off in my logic, and +1% average heal size is as good for burst as +1% heal size, 1% crit is still only a 0.5% increase to your heal size which is about as good as ~30-35 +healing but require 22.1 crit rating which is quite more expensive. So even taking the "what if I'm wrong" to the other extreme of getting full benefit from crit, it's still far from an optimal stat for your burst. And I bet you can agree 0.5% average heal size is clearly inferior to 0.5% heal size.




On a side note, I still can't think of a way to figure out the effects of cast time reduction. I mean I can calculate the burst from haste, and can calculate the efficiency from haste, but there's an obviuos (however most likely very small) benefit from it of having simply faster spells, and we all know that faster spells are better just for being faster even they're not doing any more HPS nor doing any more HP/mana. A clear example would be holy priests that occasionally do use flash heal even though it's less HPS and at the same time lesss HPM than greater heal (which is why it's not used much) - but is a shorter cast and therefore is not useless. What I wonder is what I would actually gain in terms of efficiency as well as in terms of HPS by shortening my cast assuming my (burst) HPS and efficiency remain the same (before taking that factor into account). For example how big would be the effect of healing for 1000HP/100mana every 1s isntead of 2000HP/200mana every 2s? I mean the 1000HP/100mana/sec is obviously better but by how much?

 

Endoscient

I did with take into account crit effects some heals with the, I observed to occur 10 times as often. If you increase your crit by 10%, 10% of the time a tank dies the previous heal would have crit.

I wasn't saying crit was the optimal stat for burst and you should stack it for that. I was saying you can't ignore it which you keep flat out doing, and it can save tanks just as much as +healing can. Even though crit makes you don't as much healing as +healing does per item point, crit also reduces the direct amount of mana you spend doing it (which healing has 0 effect on), so obviously it shouldn't be as good as +healing.

To be fair 2000hp every 2 is sometimes better 1000 every 1. There are a lot of predictable burst from bosses that you can counter with good precasting. Some examples from Sunwell:
-Stomp and tank switches on Brutallus
-Corrosion on Felmyst

It would be better to compare like 2200healing/180 mana every 1.4sec compared to 1.5sec. Because that is realistic change from haste you can impact with your gear, and doesn't reduce your premeditated burst healing.

 

galzohar

+healing actually reduces the amount of mana you spend on healing X HPs by a bigger amount than an equal cost of itemization put into crit would reduce the amount of mana yuo spend on healing X HPs. In other words, healing is noticeably better for both pure efficiency as well as the average HPS increase even if you count crits as something that saves a tank.

And I'm going to drop the "crit doesn't help" not because I think 1% crit is as good as 0.5% bigger heals for saving tanks, but becuase it would take much deeper reasearch of the causes to tank deaths that I don't have the ability nor time to make. But I do believe if such a reasearch is done, you'll most likely see that out of the deaths that weren't caused due to healers not casting enough heals (which are by far the minority of deaths, but are the ones that gear actually matters for), to prevent X% of the deaths by increasing crit you would need to increase it by a lot lot more than you'd need to increase +healing, to the point where you can almost completely ignore crit for saving people from dying.


Actually losing something from having a faster heal is an interesting approach, although I'd say tank killing bursts generally last at least as long as the cast time of a heal, so pre-casting to unload an expected burst is actually a rather small and situational benefit, while having faster smaller heals for same HPS and same HPM might actually be more useful (less overhealing and faster reaction time while having the same burst HPS).

The reason I want to compare casting time only while leaving HPS and HPM constant is becuase I already know the burst benefits and efficiency benefits you'd get from casting X% faster, but I believe having a faster heal has a slight benefit *on top* of the already calculated value, and that is near-impossible to calculate/estimate, but is most likely a clear benefit in most situations.

Having faster heals will (keeping burst HPS and efficiency constant!):
-Reduce overhealing (and thus further increase efficiency) while not losing any of the perviously calculated efficiency and HPS.
-Faster reaction time to save someone while not reducing the burst HPS you can unload - while this wouldn't cover a case where the DPS taken was greater than the HPS healed, it would cover cases where the heal simply didn't land fast enough even without increasing any burst HPS.
-Better ability to split your healing if the damage is divided - not a main benefit since paladins don't usually raid heal but it's another thing that can help.

In case you're still asking yourself "what's the point of this?" I will explain again: We generally already know how to calculate efficiency and burst given +healing/mp5/haste/crit and raid conditions, but haste also reduces casting time which gives an unknown benefit in addition to the HPS increase which I'm already aware of and know how to calculate. What I want to find is some way to estimate the value of that cast time reduction.


Another thing I'm still trying to figure out is a way to get a good estimation of effective crit healing (or overhealing), or in other words "what crit value do crits have?" It's obviously not 100% as they don't always overheal and it's not 150% as they obviously overheal more than normal heals do. But even given a WWS of how much each non-crit and how much each crit healed and overhealed for I'm not sure how I would derive from that the actual crit value. The 120% I assume is just a guestimation (although if you follow the thread you could see that I also mentioned what you'd get from crit if you'd assume close to 150%).

 

Guybrush

To be really honest, at this point of time I don't want any faster heals when its comes to raiding. Especially not from what I've seen so far in Sunwell, both the Kalecgos and Brutallus encounters just require you to spam HL on the MT. And it really doesn't matter if you have 2300 or 2400 healing there or 1.8 or 2 secs HLs, but it sure damn important whats your regen is. Mind you I have yet to see the twins encounter so maybe its different there, but really I don't see the point of stacking haste at this moment.

I've never stacked haste on pretty much anything up to this point, and unsurprisingly I managed to heal every encounter at the game up to Felmyst (Which I'll prolly won't heal at the near future seeing as I'm tanking there) and at the more healing intensive encounters so far, I would defenetly prefer regen on pretty much anything, both the 2 first Sunwell encounters and the Sons of Flame phase at Illidan require high amount of regen, especially when you are not paired with a SP which is almost always the case (Hell I don't even get a shaman for mana tide).

Haste is a nice stat that might be usefull in some situations, but most of the time I just don't see the point, having haste at a fight like Brutallus will just make me go oom that much faster, when you have 4 different healers healing the MT all at the same time while you never cancel any heals and will most likely ends the fight with 60-70% overheal, I'm sure as hell ain't gonna stack haste on that fight.

Unlike DPSing which is all about how much damage you can do at the shortest amount of time, healing is all about longevity, having more haste and more healing might allow you to heal more in a certain space of time but it sure ain't gonna help you when on a 10 minutes fight you went oom after 5.

 

Caravaca

Well, I have read and searched this forum quite a lot, but I didn't really find anything relating this question. There are some posts about it, but nothing really global.

So, what I want to know is, what is the really best thing to go for?

For example, you have a new T6 item, and you want to put in some new sockets. what would you take?

the +22 heal? or the +10 crit? or the +11heal an 5 int? or something completly else?

is there a kind of formula where you can say like +5heal is like +4 crit or also 3/mp5? or something like that?

greetings

 

Paperclip

Well i would say go spell crit, then +healing. Bring your spell crit to 50%(the HolyLight crit anyways) so that it acts as your mp5,
Go light on mp5 cause you can mana pot.
I've jumped in on a Illidan after some guild wipes and came out on top of healing from everyone else. I dint flask yet at the end of the fight i had 49% HL crit(which should of been ~43%). I was lucky yes, but that still dosnt undermine the plus of using HL instead of FoL. Some might say that spell crit has a greater chance of your main tank to die, but that would be false if you down rank your HLs and spam them pretty much as your would FoL, you can heal more effectively cause of your extra HL crit. (check my healing Wow Web Stats)
To FoL should be used in those extra moments, like holy shock, used as just an additive while you concentrate on your main target.

 

• frmorrison

The answer is it depends on your healing style. Do you like mostly FoL, combo of FoL/HL, or HL healing?

Since crit is subject to random number generator, it is tough to give it a formula.


Try different stats and see how it meshes with your style. Personally, I prefer following the socket bonus of items, others prefer all +healing, while a few prefer mostly +crit.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Vissi

Hello all,
I have read through the first post and learned a lot from it. I have never played a paladin past general leveling and I am really looking for a way to evaluate the paladins we have in our raids. I want to make them more efficient in their practices. I guess i am just looking for some general guidelines to see when they are doing things right and wrong to point it out to them.

Our guild is currently in BT, and we are running with at least 2 paladin healers, sometimes more.

Is 60% overheal acceptable? 50%? Or more specifically is 60% acceptable when another pally is @ 40% but only 300k behind in effective healing?

I understand FoL R7 is the generally accepted rank. HL anywhere between R4-11. I am unsure of when it is appropriate to down rank towards the bottom of HL ranks or towards the top.

How often should Holy Shock be used? Is it just an emergency instant heal or something to be tossed into a regular rotation?

Should I be comparing HPS ratings? What is an appropriate HPS rating? Again, more specifically if one paladin's HPS is significantly lower, but Overheal is less and effective healing is similar?

Sorry for all the questions, I wish i had the time to level and heal as a pally, and I know that is the best way to learn a class

 

Pandel

Yes 50% is acceptable, with some practise and some /stop casting a good Paladin can sometimes reach 35-40% overhealing, but that's about all.

FoL max rank all the time.
HL r4 to replace your usual FoL once every 10-15 sec, it will pop up your holy paladin 0.5sec bonus. On a side note it becomes really effective if you got 4 paladins in the raid ( You'll have Blessing of Light up so the +heal bonus is higher on HL than the one on FoL = you get about the same amount of healing from HL r4 than your usual FoL).
HL r9 Used when you need some higher healings and save all the mana you can ( Toping your group after the sheild dmg on Nan'jetus / Healing the adds tank on Akama / Healing the mage tank on the council).
HL r11 Panic spell, if your paladins are already using HL r9 there's no reasons to use this one very often.

I use Holy Shock in very few situations, the cooldown of the spell makes it unreliable and the range is too short to reach players around. Usually used when i need to move to get in position for healing + keep healing up on my target ( Healing Fel tank on Bloodboil and getting back to position / Healing the Demon tank on illidan ). Most of the time i'm using it on the boss for some lol DPS.

Yeah , you can compare one paladin with another ... that's all.
Paladin don't have any AOE healing or any HoTs, so they aren't designed for raid healing, usually used for Tank healing to keep a steady flow of FoL.
On your healing charts you'll always have any Priest / Druid / Shamman above the paladins with less overhealing.

Hope this helped you a bit.

 

Palados

Try spreadsheet posted in the first post. There you can evaluate values of stats for different fights. Usually if socket bonus is good, it is reasonable to try to get it. So you could ignore socket bonus of t5 shoulders usually (raid buffed t5-t6 pala with food has way over 10k hp anyway), but would like a socket bonus of T6 helm, in case you use it.

I personally rate heal/crit > int/mp5 while socketing. I have enough mp5 items to reach 150 unbuffed mp5 almost without loss of healing, so i can simply swap a few items around.

It is usually a good idea to have a few items with very massive stat. Say ZA belt with 22 healing and 11heal/2mp5 gem (socket bonus is 7 healing, so better socket heal/mp5 than pure healing, 4 healing isn't worth 2mp5 usually) and MH belt with 2x10 crit gems. Or Kazrogal mail pants with mp5, heal/mp5, int/mp5 gems and T6 pants with heal/crit/haste gems.

 

Vissi

It did thanks. I am really just trying to get a feel for which of our pallys are better so I can use that one as a general standard in comparison to the rest. See what that pally does and why it works better. I really appreciate the help.

 

Wintern

Abit old but he's using rank 8 or 9 HL when tank doesn't have stomp and rank 11 when he does, and is non-stop casting the whole fight with around 10% or so haste. On haste, for Sunwell it's the best stat, the extra hps is so nice as long as you have a group that supports you because the damage being dished out can get abit silly at times, especially on a fight like Brutallus with 2-3 holy pallys keeping up 3k hps on the tanks it makes it incredibly hard for a tank to die.

 

Rexjr

Can you link some WWS where it shows that mp5 isn't as good as the equivalent item points in spell crit for efficiency?

Based on what the link below says about how much stat points are worth, we can find out the equivalent stat points of mp5 and spell crit.
Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

1% spell crit = 22.5 spell crit rating = 22.5 item points
2.5 item points for 1mp5 => (22.5 item points)/(2.5 item points per 1mp5) = 9mp5

Thus 9mp5 costs the same item points as 1% spell crit.

It is easy to calculate which would have save more mana using WWS: 0.6% * total mana spent = mana saved by 1% spell crit. Total mana spent = # of heals * heal amount (breaking that up for each of the heals/ranks).


* The question is, how do you value the 0.5% increase in healing that the 1% more spell crit brings? U'd have to convert the extra mana regened by spell crit and mp5 into some health amount. Thing is, spell crit would be cyclical: if you say the spell crit allowed you click heal more due to mana back, then it also regen'd more mana, which allowed you to click heal more... Obviously, it would scale down quickly (i.e. 5% of 5% of 5% is negligible)

Point is, can you show a WWS where the 0.6% saved mana and 0.5% more healing is greater than the mana regened by 9mp5 and the extra healing that the extra mana saved could allow?


* Meh... imo, you can't really compare spell crit to mp5 directly. The conversion of the extra mana regen into some healing amount is weird (depends on what rank, what heal, which is total situational and probably varies based on personal preference).

What would be better, would be to compare 1% spell crit to a mixture of mp5 and either haste or +healing.

For example, compare 1% spell crit to a 50% mp5 and 50% +healing stat distribution:
22.5 item points / 2 = 11.25 stat points
4.5 mp5 = 11.25 stat points
1 +healing = .455 stat points => 11.25 stat points / (.455 stat points per 1 +healing) = 24.7 +healing

So, what is better for efficiency 4.5 mp5 & 24.7 +healing OR 1% spell crit?

It is fairly easy to come up with decent numbers now. Compare the mana regen of 4.5 mp5 to 0.6% more mana. Compare the 0.5% more healing to effect 24.7 +healings affect on all the heals.

You could also tweak the balance of mp5/+healing to see what happens when the mana regen is the same (how does hps stack up) or when heal amount is the same (how does mana regen stack up).

Anyways, I'll do an example now using this Gorefiend fight
Rexjr - WWS

HL (almost all rank 8, a few rank 11) 235,767 healed 49 clicks
FL (rank 7) 211,189 healed 101 clicks

Total mana spent = (49x580) + (101x180) = 46,600 mana
Total healed = 235,767 + 211,189 = 446,956 health
WWS says the length of the fight was 5 min 22 sec = 322 sec. I'm fairly certain I didn't get turned into the ghost thing, so that doesn't mess with this.

1% extra spell crit would have produced 0.6% x 46,600 mana = --->>> 279.6 extra mana <<<---
and 0.5% x 446,956 health = --->>> 2234.78 extra health <<<---

4.5 mp5 extra would have regend 4.5 * (322/5) = --->>> 289.8 extra mana <<<---
24.7 +healing would have increased healing on rank 8 holy light by 24.7 * %66.33 = 16.38 per cast. 16.38 x 49 = 802.6 extra healing to the rank 8 HLs before factoring in crit. 28% of my HL's were crits, thus when remembering that +healing increase both crit and non-crit healing, 802.6 * 114% = 914.9 extra health.
For rank 7 FoL, the extra healing would add 24.7 * 42.86% = 10.58 per cast. 10.58 x 101 = 1068.58 extra healing to rank 7 FoLs without factoring crit. Add the 22% into it and you have 1068.58 x 111% = 1186.1 extra health.
Grand total = 1186.1 + 914.9 = --->>> 2101 total extra health. <<<---

Ok, lets look at efficiency = new total healed / new total mana cost. new total mana cost = mana cost - new mana regen
The mana total only factors in the mana regen'd from the differences in stats (1% spell crit versus 4.5 mp5), so it doesn't include all the mana regen from unchanged mp5 or unchanged spell crit.
(446,956 + 2234.78) / (46,600 - 279.6) = 9.697472 health/mana
(446,956 + 2101) / (46,600 - 289.8) = 9.696719 health/mana
A difference of 0.008%, which is retardedly small.

Basically, it looks to me like they are very similar. In this half healing half mp5 split, they produce very similar extra amounts of healing and very similar amounts of saved mana.

Some details to point out. I was focusing almost exclusively on the MT, who had Blessing of Light (i was probably using the +heal libram). I had about 2260 +healing, 6% haste, 21% spell crit UNBUFFED. Buffed I was somewhere at 2350-2400, we also probably had a resto druid in the tank group (extra +healing). I started to do some cleansing after about half way, since the other person who was cleansing died. I had a shadow priest, and I used 2 mana potions.

This an above average amount of healing i think, due to basically just getting to stand still the whole time and the large amount of extra mana to spend from a shadow priest. Specifically, without the shadow priest, I would have had to cut back on healing, which would have decreased the value of spell crit's mana regen (which requires one to spend more mana inorder to regen more mana).

Without the shadow priest and mana pot usage, it's fair to assume that spell crit would have decreased more noticeably in value in terms of mana regened. That is the distinct difference from mp5, which always returns mana (assuming not at 100%). I've done this sort of calc for other abnormally high mana spending fights and gotten similar results: mp5/+healing is just as good as spell crit. The gap between mp5/+healing and spell crit becomes really apparent (spell crit looses) in fights where I can't spend lots of mana (no shadow priest, or lots of stuff to interrupt healing like silences, fears, movement). This is why I never gear for spell crit; the amount of mana you have to spend to make spell crit worth while is rare (short fight, shadow priest, mana pots, little to prevent you from healing continuously), even then, a mixture of +healing/mp5 is probably just as good.

It should be easy to use any WWS for any fight to do the same sort of analysis. And yes, the numbers can vary somewhat noticeably based on lots of stuff: heals used, ranks, unchanged spell crit, +healing, haste, stuff that stops you from casting all the time, etc. eh, I recommend people try to do the number crunching from their own WWS for different types of fights to see what they get. The value of spell crit varies heavily on the situation (unlike mp5).

Also, there could very well be stuff wrong with my math here! but I do think it is basically correct in what i tries to do.


[note: I had to go back and recalculate the +healing affect on total healing because i realized +healing scales up with the crit (20% spell crit effectively increases the value of +healing by 10% kinda. Crits are bigger with more +healing. This relationship does not happen in the +spell crit case because crit does not improve crit. An increase in +healing increase both non-crit and crit heal directly.)]

What's nice about this using WWS and estimating the effect, is that we are using real data. Sure they are estimates, but it is based on real amounts of healing (ranks, spells, and the frequency of each) along with real mana expenses.

 

galzohar

[Paladin] Holy raid itemization for best performance

Read this for stat comparisons, this explains how to calculate the values of stats for every given playstyle, fight duration, group support etc. and it's also taking into account things you're ignoring. No need to re-invent the wheel.

Of course even once you know how to evaluate everything, deciding between more burst HPS to more efficiency is always hard. But some items simply increase both efficiency and burst HPS more than others making choices easy, and some sacrifice a lot of one to gain little of the other making choices not too hard either - but you need to know how to evaluate each stat seperately in terms of efficiency and in terms of burst HPS, which is exaplained in the linked thread (which I really wish would've been linked in the main post).

 

SAViOR

Hi, we have invited a new paladin to our guild and I think the recruiters did a real mess!^^
The World of Warcraft Armory
I dont play a paladin, but even as a warlock i think 'why the fuck would you ever use +int gems?!'
Please just post a rating like 0-10/10 to tell me if she really sucks that much as I think

 

galzohar

You are correct, int gems are quite a waste of a socket. Can't rate the person though since you can know how to heal but still have no clue how to gear to optimize your healing, but gemming int definitely points at someone that at least doesn't have a clue about how to gear. To add to that he uses a DPS trinket, DPS ring and pvp legs/head and kara bracers when there are clearly superior items available for badges that any nub can get from heroics (not to mention kara). On top he has a crit enchant on shoulders and it's not even the exalted one (which is not expensive). His helm isn't enchanted and his boots, bracers, chest and shield have bad enchants.

So on a 0-10 scale he does get a 0 on research&dedication, although looking at his weapon on top of the large amount of 25-man loot I'd give him a 10 for DKP management (or ninja looting). I mean you need to be pretty special to get 3 (shitty) epic gems, 3 normal ssc drops, 2 vashj drops and a T6 piece when you can't even farm a couple badges.

If you look at my armory I have exactly 1 DKP drop but have a LOT more +healing/mp5 than him (and while I have less crit his stats are still very much inferior).

 

burghy

He might be trying to farm and only has that ring and trinket with spell dmg.
But still... looking at that belt kinda hurts.

 

Kayella

Being both a healer and occasional tank, and watching this thread over a period of months, it strikes me that overall, the discussion around preventing tank death due to burst damage we're unable to heal reminds me very much of the arguments around 12 stamina gem stacking in tank gearing. The arguments against the 'worst case' seem to run the same way and favour the raw stats of predictable +heal (and mp5) socketting vs. the +crit 'multiplier' effect of unpredictable (but nevertheless effective) hps and regen. Just with tank gearing, I'm guessing that you can probably get past every encounter in the game with your gear gemmed completely differently, too.

Just like good tanks do, what we want is to have a decent base set of stats and then we can potentially tweak our gear with trinkets and rings towards what the boss encounter throws at us. Because ultimately, that's what it's all about, isn't it? Reacting to the abilities of a different bosses in different ways.

My hunch coming out of this discussion for the purposes of gemming only, is that once you have a base level of mp5 (most people seem to be around 100-150 as a baseline level) you're happy with, +heal will be the better stat to stack in gem slots for the majority of encounters for the reasons Galzohar has laid out. It is the most predictable way we have of making sure, when everything goes wrong, the tank survives. It won't always save us, just in the same way that a few extra hit points won't always save a tank, but its the best shot. For specific encounters that favour longevity or more bursty healing, rings and trinkets that tweak back and forth to more mp5 or haste or crit heavy stats will help cover the deficit.

I think one of the more confusing and difficult questions for many paladin healers (well, certainly it has been for me) is how to select main pieces of gear, rather than socket them. For example, how we should treat the tier 4 gear with mp5, the tier 5 gear with spell crit, and the spell haste that comes in tier 6 and beyond. I think it's a bit misleading to say that the kit with mp5 will always be better (say) without somehow finding a way to compare the volume of stats on an item and look at the overall picture. What we're missing here really is a way to formulate whether an item is actually badly itemised, or not. Because, obsessing about a certain stat can actively hurt our effectiveness if our gear isn't pacing the content. It's must be just as bad for us to be wearing kit from a tier or two of raiding behind the content we're attempting as it is for a tank to do the same...

What I guess I'm getting at here is in my opinion:

- Gemming for heal, or heal/mp5 until you're happy with regen, seems to me to give the best overall results for the majority of encounters on the same basis as gemming for health does for tanks
- Gearing for specific stats should probably be taken with a pinch of salt, and if it has solid healing stats on it (i.e. its clearly meant for a healer, and we can utilise all the stats on it) and it drops from a higher level encounter, the exact balance of stats should matter less to us when assessing it, than if its an overall upgrade or not.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.