In the other thread I explained exactly how to use your variables to get a definite X healing = Y mp5 = etc... It's more work than just using a regular spreadsheet as I don't have the excel knoledge to make it properly interactive like other spreadsheets (especially with the more complicated calculations than DPSers have), but it does give you results.
Notice that with my stats if you have a shadow priest and resto shaman, you actually gain more efficiency from healing than mp5. With only a SP they're pretty close (but mp5 doesn't give any burst) and the only time mp5 gives much better efficiency is if you have no support (in tank group or just short on shadow priests). Of course those are also the situations where you may actually need that efficiency. Crit is never a winner but it has a value that can be calculated as explained in the other thread.
Keep in mind that a definitive system for overall item choices of X stat = Y other stat = etc... will never be possible since some stats have more value for efficiency and some have more value for burst. However if you feel you need both more or less equally, +healing is probably the best by far, giving more or less (depending on support) efficiency as mp5 and not a lot less efficiency than haste. But of course at the end you'll have to use these calculations to figure out that an item is giving you "X +healing equivalent points for efficiency and Y +healing equivalence points for burst" and then decide wether or not the tradeoff is worth it, if there is even a tradeoff in the first place.
For example if an item calculates to being 90 +healing equivalence for efficiency and 90 +healing equivalence for burst it's probably much better than a 80 +healing equivalence for efficiency and 91 +healing equivalence for burst, since most fights if not all of them aren't so extremely on the "need HPS not efficiency" side to make you choose the 91 burst item.
Hey, sorry to interrupt anything and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but how does the new Blessed Weapon Coating compare to traditional Mana Oils? Thanks~
the last info i heard about that it seems to have a 45sec hidden colldown... in the end it seems like 17mp5 but i think it was only tested on the ptr...
So I actually did discover a way to find out how much crits overheal for, not sure if this is really known or not. But if you use recount and go to the details for a specific healer on spells used, the values it gives are only effective healing. So the average done for each are without overheals. Watching this data for all the boss fights for our last 3 raids I very consistently found that the average effective healing for crits was 1.5x the amount for non crits (within .05 either way). This may be anecdotal and only reflect my healing style/assignments but it is something.
One thing to note is that the average doesn't count any healing that was 100% overhealing. But that should effect crits and non crits the same, so it shouldn't matter really.
Hey, sorry to interrupt anything and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but how does the new Blessed Weapon Coating compare to traditional Mana Oils? Thanks~
The best two oils available are [Brilliant Mana Oil] and [Blessed Weapon Coating]. If you look at the comments on WoWHead, it looks like the Blessed stuff has a 45 second internal cooldown, and in a 49 mintue FoL spam test, it gave him about 17 mp5.
Just for a sanity check, I'll take a look at one of my WWS to see if this indeed the case. The proc is called "Blessedness", and from this Brutallus kill (6 min 2 sec), you can see it proc'd 8 times. That's equivalent to ~18 mp5, so it looks like the 17 mp5 approximation is reasonable.
Brilliant: 12 mp5, +25 healing
Blessed: ~17 mp5
The difference between these then is ~5 mp5 vs. +25 healing. So, let's look at this in terms of HPS to make an apples to apples comparison.
5 mp5 is 60 mana per minute, or an extra FoL every 3 minutes (180 mana). From that same WWS report, I had a 152 hits of FoL with a 25% crit where the average crit was 3213 and the average non-crit was 2219. That gives an average value of [((152*0.75)*2219)+((152*0.25)*3213)]/152 = 2467. So, on average, that extra FoL will heal for 2467 every 3 minutes, or 2467/180 seconds = 13.7 HPS.
+25 healing is 1.5/3.5*25 = +10.7 healing for FoL. This gives us 10.7/1.5 = 7.15 HPS (FoL). +25 healing is 2.5/3.5*25 = +17.8 healing for HL. This gives us 17.8/2.0 = 8.9 HPS (HL).
The proc rate on the Blessed oil will vary a little bit, but it should be about the same regardless of the type of spell being cast, since it's based on an internal cooldown and has a high chance of proc'ing once that cooldown is up. The HPS on the +25 healing will drastically decrease if you're not spamming FoL or HL (but in a fight like Brutallus, you are definitely spamming heals).
*edit* I'll edit the conclusion a bit so it won't be misleading: From looking at it this way in a fight where you go OOM and are spam casting heals, the Blessed Weapon Coating is definitely better than Brilliant Mana Oil. There are probably other situations where the Brilliant is better than the Blessed.
Yilona, your definition of HPS is inconsistent and your calculations are nowhere near accurate nor correct. One time you assume you cast as fast as possible and add +healing as extra HPS and the other time you say the extra mana gives you extra spell casts, while this is a clear contradiction.
In most situations 25 healing will be preferable to 5 mp5, but when you're really hurting for mana and don't really want any more burst ability *and* don't have a shadowpirest and don't have a resto shaman and the fight is reasonably long, 5 mp5 would be better.
The extra mana would give you an extra cast of FoL every 3 minutes, so I average that out to give me the equivalent HPS (I'm not saying it gives me that HPS, because it doesn't, but I'm saying that's the EQUIVALENT HPS so I can compare the two stats). It's the same thing as saying every 3 minutes, I get an extra 2467 healing from that mp5, and if I spam cast FoL, I'd get an extra 1285 healing from the +25 healing.
The calculations are correct, as far as I can tell, and I do not believe there are any contradictions. In both cases, you're spamming FoL.
The problem is that when you calculate +healing, you assume you cast every 1.5 seconds, but when you calculate mp5 you're assuming you can cast more, when in reality you can't. If you assume that you can cast more spells with more mana then you can't assume you cast a FoL every 1.5s when calculating +healing, which is why you're contradicting yourself.
Refer to the other thread for more information regarding how to more accurately calculate stat values.
If you'd actually play anywhere near your assumptions it'd be nitpicking, but the fact is that the spell distribution and the time spent casting is very far from your assumptions and even depends on the fight and raid/party composition. Those actually have a huge effect on the values of stats, which your assumptions are ignoring as they assume a certain cast sequence that is too far from reality.
It's intended to be a simplistic model and a quick-and-dirty way of comparing the two, that's all, and no, it's not 100% accurate, nor does it apply to every situation. People can do whatever alternate analysis or whatever they want with whatever basic or complex models they want.
The problem is that when you calculate +healing, you assume you cast every 1.5 seconds, but when you calculate mp5 you're assuming you can cast more, when in reality you can't. If you assume that you can cast more spells with more mana then you can't assume you cast a FoL every 1.5s when calculating +healing, which is why you're contradicting yourself.
Refer to the other thread for more information regarding how to more accurately calculate stat values.
Yes, except additional mp5 will enable you to cast more Holy Lights instead of Flash of Lights which will increase your hps.
Hi there, I read the first post of this thread (didnt have time to read everything) and noticed how when crit was referred to, it was only in terms of the mana returns pretty much but there was no mention of the extra healing you get from crit as well. Now I understand that you cant heal under the presumption that you're going to crit, but I was wondering if anybody still includes the bonus healing from crit in their on the fly calculations to determine what rank heal to use.
Basically, without crit what I believe happens is we look at X person and say that in 2 seconds they will need a rank 8 HL and that will top them off at around 105% (so a bit of overhealing, I dont know how much is acceptable so if that number is way off tell me). If we had enough crit however, what we could say is that yes rank 8 without a crit HL will top off at 105% roughly, but if we crit 35% of the time (pulling numbers out of my head), we can use rank 7 HL instead, giving us something like 85% health or something like that after the heal, but if it crits it will be something around 110% health. If the heal doesnt crit, whoever is being hit wont be screwed because (s)he still has 85% health and we can quickly follow up with a much lower rank HL or something to still top the person off, but in the case that it does crit we obviously become more efficient.
Hi there, I read the first post of this thread (didnt have time to read everything) and noticed how when crit was referred to, it was only in terms of the mana returns pretty much but there was no mention of the extra healing you get from crit as well. Now I understand that you cant heal under the presumption that you're going to crit, but I was wondering if anybody still includes the bonus healing from crit in their on the fly calculations to determine what rank heal to use.
....
Read like the last 2 or 3 pages. Extra healing from crit is discussed pretty extensively there.
Long version: read the last couple pages, and if you're really intersted the couple pages before them as well.
Short version: Crit increases effective healing done, yes, but not as much as the direct increase for the more or less the reasons you stated. And it's not hard to calculate that portion of crit once you decide how much extra (effective) healing exactly you get out of crit, which we're yet unsure of how to determine. For saving a tank/player from dying getting crit is kinda like getting dodge, while +healing is like stamina... So in emergencies (where mana doesn't matter but only the survival of your target) crit is worth somewhere between nothing to very little - but of course burst HPS isn't the only thing that matters, mana efficiency from mana returns and extra healing help too.
Yes, except additional mp5 will enable you to cast more Holy Lights instead of Flash of Lights which will increase your hps.
I didn't say mp5 won't help, just that he calculated it improperly. Calculating it in your way instead would give completely different results than what he got. Both are unrealistic in opposite extremes (yours will greatly undervalue mp5 for efficiency and his will greatly overvalue it).
For cooldown usage, unless there's a time in the fight where you know cooldowns will have a greater effect (more healing needed, for example stomp), just use them whenever you're actually healing something to maximize your efficiency. If mana efficiency isn't an issue for you save the +heal trinkets and divine favor for your "oh-shit" macro to maybe save a tank from a random burst (hoping it doesn't happen more often than the cooldowns are, but if it does you can't rely on them anyway and will probably just use them as often as they're up).
There isn't really such a thing as over-stacking cooldowns, just make sure you're not doing it when you know you won't (relatively) be doing much healing, and if efficiency isn't an issue save them for when shit hits the fans rather than using them for increased HPM (this doesn't apply to divine illumination of course, just use that regardless since it doesn't increase burst HPS, only HPM).
At the end it's a lot of personal tweaking depending on how the fight is going and what you/your raid needs, just don't waste them but also don't neglect them.
Seeing the neck drop made me think though, is there really no upgrade at all over a ZA neck unless you'r a jewelcrafter?
(kind of a rhetorical question, Im probing for opinions on ZA neck vs Brooch aswell)
It's virtually 13 haste for 9 mp5, 33 stam. Unless you give those 2 stats no value at all Brooch is a fairly clear winner. I like to play around with Loot Rank to give a general idea of what I value. Mostly playing around with values so it considers matching gems if the gem bonus is ok. This is what I'm somewhat happy with.
Highborne would be quite better on fights where efficiency matters, and Nature's mercy would have quite a higher burst HPS... So all in all it's a matter of what you need. You can't really decide between the 2 without factoring in what you actually need more badly since the differences between them are so case-specific (1 only efficiency and 1 only burst after ignoring the stats that are equal).
Gal, I don't agree on your heal/mp5 conversion formulas. You say that extra healing allows you to cast FoL more and HL less thus increasing the effectiveness. I claim that usual healing pattern, that depend on fight, isn't changed much with extra +healing. If you, for example, start casting HL when tank is under 5k from his max HP, you would still do it when he is under that value. 100 or 200 more healed by FoL won't change the line where you go from HL to FoL. Therefore real effectiveness of +heal is much lower than you calculate.
Your model is only true if heal is non discret flow of HP that you could regulate pressing FoL or HL button, or if you really are some kind of robot that remembers exactly averaged FoL/HL values and changes the threshhold of tank HP when he should switch from one heal to another dynamically.
I think, that a tank getting upgrades influences FoL/HL ratio much more than a paladin getting extra +heal.
I've been reading over these threads and I'm still confused as to which path to take on my paladin either going for crit or for +heal/mp5. My guild has been progression quit fast through black temple/hyjal in the last 2months, and I havn't really had the time to theory craft on which direction to go with my paladin. Right now I'm middle of the road pally most of my gear is towards crit but i've gem'd mostly for mp5, we have a full crit pally and an mp5 pally as the other two consistent raiders. I usualy end up slightly ahead or slightly behind the crit pally on effective healing , but mana returns seems to be the problem for me and i'm often resorting to chaining dark rune/demonic runes in addition to mana pots on fights like mother and council. Well lately i've been put in group with resto shammy and dont end up with the spriest(currently short on spriests) while the other 2 pallies do. My recount usualy shows me at 65%HL ( i do down rank to rank8) and 35% Flash. Here's my current setup, and yes i know i've to change my helm, had no other options other than the za one which has no meta plus needed extra stam. I'm first in line for t6
I haven't seen alot of data on 2.4 spell haste and paladins. Does anyone have a good link, I don't believe I came up with much on search that wasn't pre-2.4.
Further, what healing class makes the best use of spell haste? Its a debate in my guild, primarily shamans vs paladins.
They both benefit the same from Spell Haste, since both only use casted heals. It also depends on what your healers job is. Obviously Shaman would most likely be on raid healing, in which case Spell Haste can be considered a direct HPS increase. If your Paladins are just MT healing, you're not going to get as much raw increase as you do with Chain Heal, but it's still just as valuable.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
04/17/08, 12:28 PM
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