I've never done this stuff but I'm assuming BoKings and Divine Intellect are multiplicative buffs. Also I don't know how Blizz rounds so I'm just doing exact calcs, no rounding to the nearest integer. (The number after each total is based off of the gem numbers in the OP of the thread, and for mana I calc'd the value to be .0716)
Elixirs
Mageblood & Healing = 16 Mp5 + 50 healing
16 Mp5 over 6 minutes is 1152 mana
Total: 1152 mana, 50 heal ==> 138.48
Adept's & Draenic = 36.3 int + 24 dmg/heal 24 crit rating (ignoring spirit)
36.3 int is 544.5 mana, 10.01 crit rating, 12.7 dmg/heal
Well, the values as they may be might be lower, but that's really not the point, since you get more actual mana from the mp5 consumables, which is what Eirmad was getting at.
Also, the "obvious reason" to use an elixir combo over the flask is typically that you actually get a +heal bonus, which many value more than the 9 mp5 extra you'd get using the flask.
And you aren't getting mana from the +int consumable? I don't understand what you mean.
Also, I adjusted the numbers so to at least attempt to reflect what a 6 min fight comparison would be. Anything longer than 6 minutes and I think it's obvious that the elixir combos favoring regen would surpass the Wisdom flask easily.
Look at your post and at Endoscient's again. He says mp5 gives more mana than int over a 5 min fight. Look at your math, especially the parts that lay out how much mana you get from each consumable option.
A simpler way to look at it is to compare the actual effect of mp5 vs int. This is easiest to see with the example of gems: 8 int vs. 3 mp5. Over 6 minutes, 3 mp5 gives you 3 x (360/5)=216 mana. 8 int is 1.1(1.1(8)))x15=145.2 mana.
Basically, an equivalent amount of mp5 gives you more mana than int in most situations (I think the cutoff is somewhere near 4 minutes).
Because mana is the relevant issue to running oom or not, and mp5 gives you more, mp5 is better than int. That's why people are telling you stacking int/adding more for mana efficiency is stupid-because it is.
Personally, I don't get a spriest on brutallus, but I've found I don't need to add extra efficiency trinkets or anything beyond my usual alchemist's stone, and I've basically started to gem everything for haste, because I find it most useful in preventing deaths.I do go OOM towards the very end of Brutallus typically(last 5-10 seconds), with mana tide/spring as my only support, but then I just throw FoLs as I can and wait to catch a clutch LoH.
That's all good and great but you aren't considering the affect of the crit. You can't just compare the mana int provides and ignore the crit when it comes to mana creation and restoration.
Since this was done mostly to look at Brutallus let's consider you're spamming HL for 6 minutes. Say rank 9 with some 11s mixed in. The distilled wisdom flask gives you just short of 1% more crit, in a 6 minute fight, non stop spamming you're casting 180 heals, to be fair let's call it 160-165. 1% more crit is going to give you 1.6-1.65 more crit spells in that 6 minute period. Even at the 160 casts level, that mana back from the crit is 1.6 * 396 = 633.
I've never done this stuff but I'm assuming BoKings and Divine Intellect are multiplicative buffs. Also I don't know how Blizz rounds so I'm just doing exact calcs, no rounding to the nearest integer. (The number after each total is based off of the gem numbers in the OP of the thread, and for mana I calc'd the value to be .0716)
...
The gem numbers in the start of the thread are totally irrelevant here. They were just there to mearly show how all gems don't have same value in pure terms of item point cost because of rounding that is done. To give you some basic means on when to gem for socket bonuses and when to ignore them.
The reason that math doesn't work is that you can't sustain that without a spriest in the first place. Most brutallus parses I've seen have non spriest toting paladins at 80-90 Holy Lights cast, not a number that's nearly twice that, which once again sets the int buffs as less useful than mp5 ones. You should know by now from your own experience that, as galz loves to point out, you can't actually spam high/max rank HL without a spriest, and even then it can be close.
You're right that I forgot to initially account for the efficiency of crit gained from the int, but the point about mp5 offering more mana than int is still, in the end, correct.
And try to keep a broader perspective on the utility of the gem stat values at the start of the thread. They are, as Eirmad pointed out, based on ilvl, which is a pretty poor metric for actual worth (compare the s3 gear to BT gear ilvl in terms of pve strength) . The community has certainly not agreed on any rigid stat weights that are broadly applicable, because fights vary, and thus you will want to tailor your gear to meet each fight's regen and throughput requirements. Basically, that means you get enough efficiency stats (int, mp5, and crit) until you won't run OOM in a given fight according to your healing style, and then you stack throughput. The math tells us that for straight efficiency, mp5 wins on most fights, so that's what you want to get until you feel comfortable with your mana.
Spriest Wow Web Stats Renei 141 Fortch 140 (Your guild) Wow Web Stats Kens 60 Silverex 35(no spriest) Wow Web Stats Torgarhammer 156 (low avg=3700) Exhaust 82 (no spriest) Wow Web Stats Reemis 88 Proopser 105
Since these are all successful kills by guilds that are making progress in Sunwell Plateau, we can rule out the option that every single one of these players is a terribad. These kills do range a bit of a gamut (from #1 dps to ~200), so there's some variation in fight length, and thus a few less HLs, but not enough to make a significant difference. I'm also not seeing tank deaths in any of these kills, so I can state that paladins assigned to MT healing on Brut can keep the tanks up with 80-90 (or less!) HLs.
The fact is, if you have healing set up right (CH bouncing off tanks, tanks taking CDs for stomps), you don't need to permanently be spamming HL- in fact, you can get away with a fair number of FoLs during non stomp periods as long as the tank is topped off.
That's not to say that giving pallies spriests and letting them do retarded things with their mana is a bad choice for Brutallus. It obviously lessens the likelihood of a tank gib, but these relatively representative parses (picked pretty much at random and by name recognition) are proof to the contrary of your statement.
Now, Brutallus healing strategy discussion aside, I'd like to point out that your hypothetical numbers barely brought int up to par in efficiency on the flask example (with both restoring 1600 mana). But because we can see now that 160 is an unrealistic number, especially for those WITHOUT SPRIESTS (where mana is a more relevant issue), we can also determine that for providing mana int consumables are inferior for a 6 minute fight like Brutallus.
First kill, with no shadow priest. Was at top of healing done.
With a shadow priest I can use Holy Light a lot more freely and do a lot more healing done. But, we do only have a limited number of shadow priest spots, and Devotion Aura is really good on that fight for Warrior tanks.
You guys seem to be working under the assumption that I believe int is the end all be all of paladin stats. I never said that, not once. Maybe you assumed this because of the int stacking question in my original post? The support I gave to the Distilled flask was simply because that's what the numbers were saying. Now, neither of you seemed to want to help me figure out a better way to estimate those numbers, instead you seem to want to crucify me.
The main reason I was doing all of this was that I wanted to know how beneficial other comsumables or gemming options were to going mainly after Mp5, which is what I used to do. Really the intent of my posts was to find out what the best way to go with gemming, consumables and enchants somewhat. I realize I never actually said that but I have been thinking about regemming everything to either straight 22 heal gems or mixing it up, going for socket bonuses with 22 heal, 11 heal 5 int and 11 heal 2 regen.
Now, that all being said, I see that I was very wrong in my assumption of 160, that was way too high. Judging by the parses you've shown, for a paladin with no SP perhaps 60-70 range is more accurate, and with one 110-115ish.
If you really want one all-around gear and don't have all possible T6 drops for all slots including shammy items for mp5, then I would suggest mix of +22, 10 haste and 11/2. All yellow slots - haste, red - +22, blue - either +22 or 11/2, depending if you want set bonus and if you need blue to activate meta. Good rule of thumb is that if you only have 1 blue socket in item and bonus is healing or mp5 then 11/2 is OK. If you have 2 blue sockets and/or socket bonus like sta/int/crit it is usually better (in average) to go for two +22 heal gems.
Enchants are obvious - 6mp5 on chest, heal/mp5 on head, exalted aldor/scryer on shoulders (some may consider ZG one as an option too), heal on bracers and gloves (mp5 on bracers may be good, but I doubt you'll want more mp5 if you get more than two 11/2 gems). +healing on wep, +40int is an option only for some fights, spellsurge only if you never are in a Mt group. Boots - vitality, pants - epic thread. Shield - int. Back - anything you want . Some do +all res.
Boars speed is tons and tons better then vitality. 4mp5 pales over the ability to take one less "random BT damage tick" or an easier run time on felmyst, quicker portal clicking on kalecgos, less chance to conflag the raid on Twins, etc..
It isn't really that much faster tbh. At least I didn't found it good enough. If your reaction and ping are good then it won't really influence your performance. Even if on council or azgalor aoe starts with you at the center you can move out before getting two ticks. With such minor speed increase I doubt you will buy even half a sec on Kalecgos. But prolly it's a matter of personal preferences. 4 mp5 is one extra epic gem.
First kill, with no shadow priest. Was at top of healing done.
With a shadow priest I can use Holy Light a lot more freely and do a lot more healing done. But, we do only have a limited number of shadow priest spots, and Devotion Aura is really good on that fight for Warrior tanks.
Could you explain the point you're trying to make, Turik? Because I'm not entirely sure what that's supposed to prove. All that WWS tells me is that, with a spriest, you were able to cast a bunch of lowish HLs along with some max rank ones (otherwise your average hit wouldn't be 3.5k).
It doesn't disprove the fact that you can keep up your tanks using only 80-90 HLs, and the fact that you have no t6 really just emphasizes the point that spriests give you an incredible amount of mana to work with, to the point that you can use HL much, much more freely.
That's not to say that I don't think giving pallies a spriest on Brut is a good idea, it's certainly effective and can make learning and farming the encounter much easier in respect to tank deaths if your dps doesn't need the boost from a spriest.
With such minor speed increase I doubt you will buy even half a sec on Kalecgos. But prolly it's a matter of personal preferences. 4 mp5 is one extra epic gem.
The thing is the minor speed saves you half a second each time you move. That half a second over all the times you have to move out of a fire is better than 4 mp5.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The thing is the minor speed saves you half a second each time you move. That half a second over all the times you have to move out of a fire is better than 4 mp5.
How do you get that math? You will have to be moving for 7 or so seconds to to actually gain 1/2 a second. Most of the time when I move in raids it is a much shorter time, probably around 2 seconds.
How do you get that math? You will have to be moving for 7 or so seconds to to actually gain 1/2 a second. Most of the time when I move in raids it is a much shorter time, probably around 2 seconds.
There is a rather large wall of math in the enhancement shaman think tank which proves that spending 4 seconds running on a 5 minute fight is greater than agility.
The problems I can see taking this attitude toward vitality are:
1. Vitality works while we're moving while agility doesn't.
2. Cat's Swiftness will benefit a shaman on every fight even when they just have to stand still while boar's speed will not benefit paladins on the same fight in the slightest.
3. Moving out of aoe/clicking portals ect can be considered a binary activity: Either you succeed or you fail. Personally I have no problems doing those tasks without a speed enchant.
You might be able to make the argument that decreased time spent moving can equal extra casts throughout the length of a fight. Thus increasing throughput.
There is a rather large wall of math in the enhancement shaman think tank which proves that spending 4 seconds running on a 5 minute fight is greater than agility.
The problems I can see taking this attitude toward vitality are:
1. Vitality works while we're moving while agility doesn't.
2. Cat's Swiftness will benefit a shaman on every fight even when they just have to stand still while boar's speed will not benefit paladins on the same fight in the slightest.
3. Moving out of aoe/clicking portals ect can be considered a binary activity: Either you succeed or you fail. Personally I have no problems doing those tasks without a speed enchant.
You might be able to make the argument that decreased time spent moving can equal extra casts throughout the length of a fight. Thus increasing throughput.
One thing that is totally different is healers have a 40 yard range, so they have to move a lot less because of that.
What benefit would I get from Boar's Speed in Sunwell?
Kalecgos: Not much, since almost all the time when I get to the portal I wait there anyway because there is a line of people waiting to go down and only 1 or so can go a second. Normally do minimal adjustments once I get ported back up.
Brutallus: I can bubble the burn, so I have never had to move at all.
Felmyst: I tank on on this fight so I don't know personally. Could help running away with beams, but is that an issue? Mainly just helps with encapsulation.
Twins: Normally just run as far away as I can when I get conflagged until it actually hits me then run back, so it makes no difference.
So overall in Sunwell so far I get very little benefit to increased speed.
What benefit would I get from Boar's Speed in Sunwell?
If you think of the fights in BT too I cannot think of many that would benefit greatly from boars speed.
Najentus: Stand and deliver.
Supremus: Phase 1 stand and deliver, phase 2 I don't heal much anyway so kiting might be easier but its trivial without.
Akama: Stand and deliver.
Teron: Stand and deliver.
Bloodboil: Might gain some extra time depending on if you take bloodboil or not (you do take bloodboil as a pally right?)
RoS: Stand and deliver.
Mother: Might help survive FA but we're using SR boots here anyway.
Council: Might help you avoid aoe but trivial without (if tree druids can do it.. so can you)
Illidan: Movement happens during phase changes so speed is worthless here.
so possible 3/9 fights in BT might benefit assuming you enchant your SR boots with boars speed....
I've been thinking about switching from Vitality to Boar's once I get the t6 boots. But like Endo said, other than Twins where if you don't notice conflag right away you might tag someone, you really don't need Boar's for any fight.
Also, the way we do Felmyst also allows me plenty of time to move away from encapsulate, so I haven't had any trouble with that. On the other hand it would be nice to run away from a green beam if you don't notice it right away, or if you somehow get stuck on a box running between the deep breaths.
Dunno if you're seeing the common theme here, but if you ask me it only seems necessary if you aren't paying attention.
I've been thinking about switching from Vitality to Boar's once I get the t6 boots. But like Endo said, other than Twins where if you don't notice conflag right away you might tag someone, you really don't need Boar's for any fight.
Also, the way we do Felmyst also allows me plenty of time to move away from encapsulate, so I haven't had any trouble with that. On the other hand it would be nice to run away from a green beam if you don't notice it right away, or if you somehow get stuck on a box running between the deep breaths.
Dunno if you're seeing the common theme here, but if you ask me it only seems necessary if you aren't paying attention.
You can make the point that you don't need Boar's Speed to survive, but it lets you get where you need to go faster so you can start healing/dps'ing earlier. While for DPS that is true any time not dps is wasted, it not as simple for healing. The same health will need healing if you get there 8% later or not. It is only worth it then if getting there 8% sooner helps you save someone from dying.
but you all know that WWS Stats still doesn't work properly since pacht 2.4? because we tested it in several ways, and it is absolutly different concerning the numbers collected...
but you all know that WWS Stats still doesn't work properly since pacht 2.4? because we tested it in several ways, and it is absolutly different concerning the numbers collected...
so you should not fix your ideas at 100% on WWS
Care to elaborate on that at all? What does it not do properly? Who is the "we" who tested this? Where is the data that proves this?
04/25/08, 10:04 PM
. Some do +all res.
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