Hey, for my Rawr Healadin module I need to base stats of other races besides Blood Elfs for it to be accurate. So if any of you human, dwarf or dranei paladins can help me out.
You need to take off all of your gear and cancel any buffs and record what your, strength, int, stamina, spirit, agility, health and mana are. Also say if you have any talents like Divine Illumination that increase your base stats.
Thanks in advance!
I thought that the retribution module already contained the base stats for those races. Couldn't you just copy the stats from there?
I thought that the retribution module already contained the base stats for those races. Couldn't you just copy the stats from there?
I was able to get them from Warcrafter as frmorrison suggested. Thanks for the help though, Healadin module is almost done and should be out with B14. Only thing that will probably be missing is support for a lot of special gear procs and on use effects.
Sorry if this has already been posted, but there's a lot of pages to check and the last one didn't have any solid numbers for spell haste vs +healing gems. Anyway, I did some quick math comparing only HPS for the two gems. I also did the calculation for crit, but it was way below the other two, so I won't bother with it. I accounted for the 12% talent and 5% flash of light t6 bonus. Again, this was just some quick math, so I used the following average heal values for what I see during a raid. (They're not exact numbers according to what my real spread with buffs would be, but that's not important as you'll see later. Being off by 200 healing still gives haste a big advantage)
I assumed 0 haste for the calculation with 22 healing gems, and only calculated the hps gained from the gem itself, accounting for crit and % modifying talents. The haste calculation was done by simply subtracting the hps value for the average heal from the hasted hps. Blah blah blah, I'm not gonna bore you with calculations, so if you think I made a mistake, which I might have, the math is easy to check for yourself.
If I didn't fail at using a calculator or logic, 10 spell haste has a little bit higher hps than 22 healing for flash of light, and twice as much for holy light ranks 9 and 11. Of course the more healing you have the more hps you'll gain from haste, and vice versa, so I'm not gonna mess with that math, but the difference is pretty clear. The highest hps gem you can socket right now is spell haste. Crit was something like 3.3 for fol and 6.1 for HL. Keep in mind I'm not saying one is better than the other in any or all situations, just that spell haste gives you the most hps for any gem if that's what you're looking for.
I haven't decided to take the final step and destroy my precious spinels, but I might start doing so slowly with new pieces of gear. I did replace my orange gems with haste ones for the meta gem requirement though.
Sorry if this has already been posted, but there's a lot of pages to check and the last one didn't have any solid numbers for spell haste vs +healing gems. Anyway, I did some quick math comparing only HPS for the two gems. I also did the calculation for crit, but it was way below the other two, so I won't bother with it. I accounted for the 12% talent and 5% flash of light t6 bonus. Again, this was just some quick math, so I used the following average heal values for what I see during a raid. (They're not exact numbers according to what my real spread with buffs would be, but that's not important as you'll see later. Being off by 200 healing still gives haste a big advantage)
I assumed 0 haste for the calculation with 22 healing gems, and only calculated the hps gained from the gem itself, accounting for crit and % modifying talents. The haste calculation was done by simply subtracting the hps value for the average heal from the hasted hps. Blah blah blah, I'm not gonna bore you with calculations, so if you think I made a mistake, which I might have, the math is easy to check for yourself.
If I didn't fail at using a calculator or logic, 10 spell haste has a little bit higher hps than 22 healing for flash of light, and twice as much for holy light ranks 9 and 11. Of course the more healing you have the more hps you'll gain from haste, and vice versa, so I'm not gonna mess with that math, but the difference is pretty clear. The highest hps gem you can socket right now is spell haste. Crit was something like 3.3 for fol and 6.1 for HL. Keep in mind I'm not saying one is better than the other in any or all situations, just that spell haste gives you the most hps for any gem if that's what you're looking for.
I haven't decided to take the final step and destroy my precious spinels, but I might start doing so slowly with new pieces of gear. I did replace my orange gems with haste ones for the meta gem requirement though.
You really didn't look that hard, it was discussed pretty extensively on the last 3 or 4 pages. While yes once you have a decent gear level Haste will increase the pure out HPS that your spells do. You also have to consider that your heals will also be costing more mana, which is just as big of a point to consider. Since your mana can be converted directly into HPS by casting HL over FoL. Refer my post http://elitistjerks.com/734762-post1070.html I made a few pages back, that even includes a small spreadsheet on this issue.
One point I didn't see mentioned is target switching. I think the boss changing targets is probably the time when the tank is the most vulnerable, and you see a decent amount of that in Sunwell. I'm usually fast enough and time my heals properly, but sometimes the OT/new MT gets pretty low right after a transition. That's where haste really comes in handy, because it lets you get that first heal off on a new target faster and hopefully before he dies. The same is true for any fight where you're forced to move, which puts the tank at additional risk. The faster you can heal the tank after stopping, the less likely he is to die.
When it first became an option, I didn't give haste much thought, and assumed it would just be a way to waste my mana faster with smaller heals. But after seeing most of the fights in Sunwell, I get why many of the top paladins are gemming and gearing for haste. I'm not a mindless copycat for the "popular" builds, but sometimes I have to give the best players in the world the benefit of the doubt when it comes to stuff I'm not completely familiar with.
When it first became an option, I didn't give haste much thought, and assumed it would just be a way to waste my mana faster with smaller heals.
That's like assuming you have to drive at 100mph because you own a Porsche. It's perfectly acceptable to cast the same 20 HLs a minute as you would without haste, taking advantage only of their landing faster. The fifth gear of spamming heals is still there when you need it.
I've been building up haste step by step by looting Blessed Band of Karabor, another Blessed Band of Karabor, Shroud of the Highborne, socketing 20 haste in the T6 chest, and equipping the SWP trash mail gloves socketet with 20 haste.
Unlike any other healstat, you have to adjust your healing pattern and spells properly with haste. When we first tried RoS, we had 2 Holy Paladins chaincasting HL11 with some HL9 if mana would be an issue in Phase 3. It has been 14 kills for us, and I have been there every single kill healing the tank. While my gear build up, i simply did the same thing every kill: spamming HL11. I didn't care that I had an increase in HPS via more healup/spellcrit, I didn't care I had an increase in efficiency with more MP5/spellcrit on the gear, I didn't care that the gear of the Tank got better. I just spammed HL11, and it was fine, because wasting mana didn't matter in that situation.
With the aforementioned gear i got me ~160 spell haste, which made me waste significantly more mana while chaincasting HL11 with RoS. So with a bad stroke of non-crits I finally got me in a situation where I had to change my healing pattern to not go oom to quickly in an encounter I never had problems before.
So you are not forced to burn your mana more quickly, but you possibly will. It's much easier to adjust to healup upgrades than to the spellhaste ones, because you have to remember: it's not the size of the heal that counts with tankhealing, it's the hps.
That's like assuming you have to drive at 100mph because you own a Porsche. It's perfectly acceptable to cast the same 20 HLs a minute as you would without haste, taking advantage only of their landing faster. The fifth gear of spamming heals is still there when you need it.
Except if you have used your gear/gems to get haste instead of other stats you are effectively losing it if you don't chain cast. Yes there is an argument to be made for the utility of your heals landing faster. But, it can be to objectively weight that against the added benefit of other stats.
Except if you have used your gear/gems to get haste instead of other stats you are effectively losing it if you don't chain cast. Yes there is an argument to be made for the utility of your heals landing faster. But, it can be to objectively weight that against the added benefit of other stats.
Well, yes. You may recall that a few pages back I was on the other side of this argument. I haven't switched sides, but I don't see that there's any difference between casting fewer bigger heals and casting faster heals that overheal for less.
Say my HL11 heals for 6k, and I cast it 20 times a minute. I have a choice of adding enough +heal to heal for 6.3k per cast, or enough haste to cast 21 HL11s in 40 seconds. In either case I am casting for 40 seconds per minute, generating 3150 HPS. The +heal setup costs less mana but generates greater overheal in all situations where I have to heal pre-emptively. The haste setup will cost me more mana in any fight where the full 126k healing is required as I have an additional cast to pay for. However, it will reduce my reliance on pre-emptive healing in any fight where the boss has the standard 2.0 swing speed as I'll be able to cast and land Holy Lights between swings. If I can downrank from HL11 to HL7 twice per minute because I know the tank only needs a 4k topup instead of 6k, I save enough mana to compensate for the extra cast.
That's like assuming you have to drive at 100mph because you own a Porsche. It's perfectly acceptable to cast the same 20 HLs a minute as you would without haste, taking advantage only of their landing faster. The fifth gear of spamming heals is still there when you need it.
Exactly. While stacking haste does make your heals smaller, by maybe 200-300 at the very most, you now have the option of having higher burst hps when you need it. It's not like haste actually makes your heals cost more or something, just wait a fraction of a second and pretend it's a 2 sec heal if it's not a spam situation. Most of the time, the tank just needs a heal to stay alive, and healing for a couple hundred less isn't going to make a difference. I think stacking healing is still a good way to gem, as you can see in my armory. However, I'm starting to think my soon to be 2600 healing might be a little excessive, and perhaps a couple hundred of that could be better spent as haste.
I think that when talking about haste, you also need to talk about how and where it's going to be used, in Sunwell. You don't need haste to keep tanks alive in Sunwell, although I haven't fought Kil'jaeden yet so who knows, but it definitely suits most of the encounters better than stacking only +healing. There isn't a single encounter where you stand still and spam heals on one MT for the whole fight. There's plenty of moving and tank switching going on, in addition to hard hitting bosses, and that's what haste is really for imo.
Well, yes. You may recall that a few pages back I was on the other side of this argument. I haven't switched sides, but I don't see that there's any difference between casting fewer bigger heals and casting faster heals that overheal for less.
Say my HL11 heals for 6k, and I cast it 20 times a minute. I have a choice of adding enough +heal to heal for 6.3k per cast, or enough haste to cast 21 HL11s in 40 seconds. In either case I am casting for 40 seconds per minute, generating 3150 HPS. The +heal setup costs less mana but generates greater overheal in all situations where I have to heal pre-emptively. The haste setup will cost me more mana in any fight where the full 126k healing is required as I have an additional cast to pay for. However, it will reduce my reliance on pre-emptive healing in any fight where the boss has the standard 2.0 swing speed as I'll be able to cast and land Holy Lights between swings. If I can downrank from HL11 to HL7 twice per minute because I know the tank only needs a 4k topup instead of 6k, I save enough mana to compensate for the extra cast.
The haste setup will cost 5% mana, or the equivalent worth of 8.3% less crit with Illumination, to achieve the same HPS. Sure in situations like you describe where you can do the same total healing done haste is better. But having 5% more haste over a Sunwell fight can mean casting 10 less Holy Lights than without it. Which is a huge loss in hps, especially burst hps. You can't just ignore the extra mana used by haste.
Why do you say you can downrank more in the +haste setup then the +healing setup?
Originally Posted by HolyHotty
Exactly. While stacking haste does make your heals smaller, by maybe 200-300 at the very most, you now have the option of having higher burst hps when you need it. It's not like haste actually makes your heals cost more or something, just wait a fraction of a second and pretend it's a 2 sec heal if it's not a spam situation. Most of the time, the tank just needs a heal to stay alive, and healing for a couple hundred less isn't going to make a difference. I think stacking healing is still a good way to gem, as you can see in my armory. However, I'm starting to think my soon to be 2600 healing might be a little excessive, and perhaps a couple hundred of that could be better spent as haste.
I think that when talking about haste, you also need to talk about how and where it's going to be used, in Sunwell. You don't need haste to keep tanks alive in Sunwell, although I haven't fought Kil'jaeden yet so who knows, but it definitely suits most of the encounters better than stacking only +healing. There isn't a single encounter where you stand still and spam heals on one MT for the whole fight. There's plenty of moving and tank switching going on, in addition to hard hitting bosses, and that's what haste is really for imo.
Healing can do the same exact thing, it is called downranking. When are you not spamming heals? Even if it is just FoL. With how hard bosses can hit I don't think 2600 healing is overkill, and with +healing and +crit being able to provide a constant stream of 3000+ hps for a majority of the fight is invaluable.
I would say Brutallus to be pretty close to standing and spamming heals on a tank. Do you really have any issue with your tank dying after a taunt? If so it is a lack of communications and precasting, not gear.
Don't get me wrong I don't think haste is bad, just that healing/crit are better if you have to choose between the two.
The haste setup will cost 5% mana, or the equivalent worth of 8.3% less crit with Illumination, to achieve the same HPS. Sure in situations like you describe where you can do the same total healing done haste is better. But having 5% more haste over a Sunwell fight can mean casting 10 less Holy Lights than without it. Which is a huge loss in hps, especially burst hps. You can't just ignore the extra mana used by haste.
I didn't just ignore it. I pointed out that it was there, but there are ways of utilising haste to spend the same or less mana.
Why do you say you can downrank more in the +haste setup then the +healing setup?
Again, I'm pretty sure I was clear on this. If my cast time + reaction time is faster than the boss's swing time, I can get away with using reactive heals every so often. Most Paladin overheal derives from the need to preemptively heal for the maximum amount of damage your tank can take. If you know how much damage they've taken, and it's less than the maximum, you in turn need to heal less.
Each time you know in advance that you can cast HL7 over HL11 and still keep the tank up, you save 375 mana. Even if you only manage to pull it off once a minute on average, that's the equivalent of 31 MP5. Obviously as a tank healer your chief concern is keeping said tank vertical, but the more mana you can safely save, the better you can do this.
I didn't just ignore it. I pointed out that it was there, but there are ways of utilising haste to spend the same or less mana.
Again, I'm pretty sure I was clear on this. If my cast time + reaction time is faster than the boss's swing time, I can get away with using reactive heals every so often. Most Paladin overheal derives from the need to preemptively heal for the maximum amount of damage your tank can take. If you know how much damage they've taken, and it's less than the maximum, you in turn need to heal less.
Each time you know in advance that you can cast HL7 over HL11 and still keep the tank up, you save 375 mana. Even if you only manage to pull it off once a minute on average, that's the equivalent of 31 MP5. Obviously as a tank healer your chief concern is keeping said tank vertical, but the more mana you can safely save, the better you can do this.
What about parrys? Most bosses also have other abilities (like cleaves, etc.) that do damage in between auto attacks. What if the warriors thunderclap gets resisted so his attack isn't the same speed. You can't rely on getting a heal off before a bosses swing timer is up. Get to Sunwell, or even BT/Hyjal and still say that is a valid healing strategy. I am also confused why you would use HL7, it is not a huge increase over FoL hps, but costs 2.5x as much mana.
The purpose of Rawr.Healadin is to evaluate gearing options for a Holy Paladin so he can see how to maximize his healing. Currently it just analyzes how much overall healing you will do in the defined fight. But, in the next version it should add support for burst healing, longevity, and maybe more.
How it works
The module maximizes how many Holy Lights you use, while making sure you have enough mana to always cast Flash of Light the whole fight. To calculate that is uses this formula to determine how much of the time is spent casting Holy Light.
HL_Time = (totalMana - length * FoL_Mps) / (HL_Mps - FoL_Mps)
Then based on that it computes how much total healing you will do for the fight
Downranking is supported by the user selecting two ranks of Holy Light (A and B) and then defining the mixing rate of the two.
Divine Illumination is modeled by assuming while it is active 40% of your casts will be Holy Light A, 20% will be Holy Light B, and 40% will be Flash of Light. Then increases your total effective mana pool by how much mana is saved on average. Divine Favor is modeled in a similar way, along with additional healing from the crit.
Todo List for B15
Model burst healing
Model longevity, how well your gear scales with fight length
Tier 4 and 5 set bonuses.
Procs from all relavant healing gear.
Add Tree of Life buff.
Overhealing, specifically different rates of crits and non-crits.
Cleanse support, user specifiable amount of casts.
This is the first version so it is far from complete. I would love any suggestions that people have for it. Hope you find it useful.
I've been looking for some gear benchmarks for the rest of my guild as we enter into T5 content. The only thing I really have to go on is my own gear at this point but I'd really like a fair and honest benchmark for others rather than simply guessing based on my own experience. I haven't been able to find any gear benchmarks for holy paladins and apoligize if it's already here and I've managed to overlook it. I'm specifically looking for something for SSC but any info would be helpful and most appreciated.
What about parrys? Most bosses also have other abilities (like cleaves, etc.) that do damage in between auto attacks. What if the warriors thunderclap gets resisted so his attack isn't the same speed. You can't rely on getting a heal off before a bosses swing timer is up. Get to Sunwell, or even BT/Hyjal and still say that is a valid healing strategy.
I hadn't forgotten parries and specials. I did have an example composed which basically said "haste makes it easier to work out much healing you need to do to keep the tank up if there's a sudden damage spike that you can't predict", but I deleted it before posting because I wasn't happy with it.
I am also confused why you would use HL7, it is not a huge increase over FoL hps, but costs 2.5x as much mana.
Didn't you just imply that healing strategies adjust with time? I imagine that in Sunwell if you go 15 seconds without casting HL9 or HL11 it's because you're dead, but I'm mainly spamming Flashes interspersed with Holy Lights here. Even though I can often go 15 seconds without needing HL to heal, I still need to keep Light's Grace up all the time. HL7 is the best middle ground spell for that; it maintains my HPS but doesn't splurge mana like a HL11 would.
Also, I didn't mean to imply that I would spam HL7 or use it over HL11 on a regular basis. I'm only talking about downranking once or twice a minute to save 375 mana a pop.
@Playchaser - to do well in SSC, you're aiming for 2k +heal, 11-12k mana, 9k health, 20-22% Holy crit and 160-170 MP5 with all buffs except Shammy totems. That may be a little more than is strictly needed, but it'll ease the stress. If you have a choice of one stat to get more of, get more crit.
Well, you have yet to mention parries/specials. Just wait until your tank gets hit, you start a heal, and the boss parries and hits the tank again quickly. There is no way you can heal between a boss' swing timer efficiently. If you can the boss really isn't hitting that hard regardless so proactive healing would keep your tank alive just fine.
You implied that because of Haste you could cast HL7 over HL11 more often, thus negating the extra mana used by haste. In the situation you are describing you would almost certainly be doing the same cast cycle with or without haste.
Most discussion of haste is for Sunwell and in Sunwell gear. Because that is where almost all of the decently itemized haste gear is. You really should get out of ssc/tk before commenting on stuff that is way beyond your gear/experience level.
You're being more than a little patronising there, Endo, though you may not intend to be. Haste gear is available from ZA on and some of it is badge rewards. Its value at any level from T5 up is therefore worthy of debate. You're discussing it at SWP level, I'm discussing it at the T5/T6 transition level, but it's all the same discussion.
Between us, though, I think we've answered the question fairly well: until you need haste, which isn't until SWP, there's no profit in acquiring it.
@Playchaser - to do well in SSC, you're aiming for 2k +heal, 11-12k mana, 9k health, 20-22% Holy crit and 160-170 MP5 with all buffs except Shammy totems. That may be a little more than is strictly needed, but it'll ease the stress. If you have a choice of one stat to get more of, get more crit.
Thank you for the quick response. Would other's agree with this as a good benchmark ? I kinda expected a little higher numbers in mana pool and crit.
Thank you for the quick response. Would other's agree with this as a good benchmark ? I kinda expected a little higher numbers in mana pool and crit.
Depends on your access to badge/PvP gear as well. Well I wouldn't say "access" to badge gear, more along the lines of willingness to farm hundreds of badges :P
If you can get 1850 for the weapon, and the S3 helm those two are pretty nice pieces. Those numbers are probably fine post buffs
Would other's agree with this as a good benchmark ? I kinda expected a little higher numbers in mana pool and crit.
SSC/TK/ZA bosses don't hit too hard, nor do fights last for a long time; that is a good benchmark (after being buffed).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Hey-
I was wondering when Blizzard got rid of the GCD for swapping weapons and librams. I know some libram swappers were posted in this thread awhile ago, but I was wondering which one people used and liked the best.
I was also curious if people still use CasterWeaponSwapper with spellsurge on an extra healing weapon. I know mana isn't a huge issue for many paladins but it does apply to your whole party. Are any of you still doing this and does the change to the GCD make weapon swapping more viable?
There is still a GCD when libram swapping, at first I didn't notice it (due to the spell's cast time) but it is there. I use Holy Librams!
Using a spellsurge weapon is nice for your party, but with libram swapping already I don't like to make things more complex.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I can confirm - there is still a GCD on libram swap. Even only using [Blessed Band of Karabor] which chops .03 seconds off of Flash, I've noticed it. Obviously not an issue on HL.
Guild healers never accepted Spellsurge theory, so never tested it. At a guess, if your mods swap libram and weapon simultaneously (or very close), you should only get 1 GCD. Maybe 1.6 seconds (if GCD is "reset" after a tenth of a second due to Holy Librams and Caster Weapon Swap causing some sort of interference delay).
Anyone using both Holy Librams and Caster Weapon Swap have examples? Do A) both swap simultaneously, or B) will only one swap, or C) will both swap with additional delays? B and C obviously reduce the advantages of the mods.
If you use something like Quartz I don't know that it's much of an issue. Just cast your next spell when Quartz shows GCD complete, regardless of your current cast and you'll "queue" that next cast just as if there was nothing extra involved.
My guild is 4/5 and 7/9 right now, and i'm trying to gear for future encounters. I've been looking for as much information I could get and have searched in this thready but can't decide on my gloves slot.
I've been curious for a long time which gloves are better, between the tier 6 and season 3 arena gloves. I would probably socket the tier 6 gloves with 11healing/2mp5 putting them at 14 mp/5 and much more healing than the arena gloves, but I lose that great FoL bonus, and even the raw crit rating is lost(I would get 2 crit rating back from socket bonus though). I see positives and negatives on both, but just can't decide. I haven't been having mana issues, but if that's the case, wouldn't the raw heal be better anyways, simply trading crit for mp5?
05/09/08, 5:46 PM
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