It's the same old story. If you have enough MP5, BABs are an upgrade. If you don't, or you have enough crit, they're not.

Checking your Armoury, you've got 140 MP5 and ~16% crit unbuffed. In your shoes I'd be looking to scale back the MP5 by 10 or 15 points and pick up some crit.

After further contemplating, I'm beginning to think that beyond a certain amount of spell haste(~175 or so) it's value becomes much less. This of course is assuming your raid doesn't provide you with a spriest regularly. If you always have a spriest when mana is even remotely an issue, stacking more haste is obviously the way to go. This is not the case for me however.

About half of haste's value in my mind comes from the additional HPS aspect, but the other half of its value comes from the increased margin of error you gain from not only heals landing earlier but also reduced GCD on other abilities such as HoJ, Seals, etc. With that in mind, beyond about 175 haste(just a number I feel is suitable) your increased margin for error is basically useless. If I'm so incompetent that I need over 200 spell haste to make up for errors, then that's a bigger problem than worrying about itemization. Therefore, haste's value is diminished to just the HPS aspect. BUT, this aspect is reduced as well because on M'uru for example I am spending a LOT of time canceling heals and not casting; mostly because mana is such a huge issue without a spriest(even with SA mana) that I simply cannot afford to overheal. Seeing as mana is such a big issue, crit/mp5/+heal would net me an overall increased healing ability for the given encounter. Having more mana means you can uprank, therefore you're gaining basically the same HPS. I've basically came to the conclusion that: If mana is ever an issue, haste is no longer more HPS gain than other stats such as +heal/mp5/crit.

Now, going back to choosing Sunwell items with that in mind. There's simply so much haste gear in Sunwell with little to no alternatives in most slots(ex: Felmyst neck, Blessed Bands/Kalec Ring, M'uru chest) that you reach that ~175 haste rating without gemming or intentionally gearing for haste at all. I honestly do not believe keeping 4pc T6 will be worth it; I almost never cast FoL anymore. I'm thinking that once I get the Felmyst neck and Kalec ring, I can replace the spell haste trinket with ideally M'uru's Sliver or Memento(if I have neither, any +heal trinket), replace Twins' offhand ideally with M'uru's shield, and finally regem my haste gems into other efficiency/longevity gems and be set. CT profiles' item selection is rather limited when it comes to some Sunwell items so it's not worth it designing one currently. In my newly designed ideal suit, you end up with: 177 Spell haste rating, +2585 heal, ~24% holy crit, 174 mp5. Finding a way to perhaps trade some mp5 for crit would be ideal.

What do you guys think? In my mind, if you get a spriest regularly, gem for more haste. If you don't, you have enough haste and will likely net more HPS from having more mana from +heal/mp5/crit by being able to cast more and uprank more often.

I plan on doing a bit more math and contemplating on choosing a libram later on.

I basically came to the same conclusion. Haste increases throughput, but at an efficiency cost that's higher than increasing your throughput via +healing. Therefore it's only really useful to gem for haste when mana is not an issue or you're for some reason spamming HL 11 and need more throughput. Since a lot of paladins have been or still are using HL 9, it's more efficient to still use +heal and simply rank up to 11 when you need the throughput. I do still use flash; I just have to be careful with when.

At the moment I'm around 2580 +healing, 26% holy crit and 150mp5 while gemming red. Spell crit is a little lower than I would like, but we haven't got the glove pattern. I think I'm going to keep my four-piece bonus using the T6 breastplate, which is unusually well-itemized, or at least keep it to switch in as needed (I dropped smithing for alchemy). Most of the items in Sunwell other than the armor pieces themselves have seemed pretty lackluster to me. They have similar +heal but swap spell crit for haste or mp5, neither of which I really want more of at this point. I can't see changing my jewelry or trinkets, I'm rather fond of the proc on the Illidan mace, and the cape is a very small upgrade.

I have math around here somewhere if you'd like the throughput and efficiency numbers I used to decide my gemming. When it comes down to it, how you heal is more important than how you gear, and we're really all just splitting hairs.

Yeah, that's definately how I feel. Without a Shadow Priest (And even with one, to some extent), Haste is a nice stat, but it isn't something that you need an abundance of, because the marginal benefit diminishes quite drastically somewhere along the line. This might not be the case if you raid without Resto Druids, but that is uncommon at this point.

You only need so much margin for error as a tank healer, and in Sunwell with HoTs rolling, it should be fairly rare for a Paladin to look back on a wipe and say "Damn, if my casts were slightly faster, and nothing else changed, that kind of thing would never happen". Having the ability to heal faster only benefits you so far, at which point other stats become much more appealing than additional haste.

This is the best illustration of haste versus healing that I can find:

WWS Loading...

There's nothing unusual going on with spell crit for either of us. The effective healing is very similar; I just don't need a shadow priest to do it. Given a shadow priest I can put out similar hps by ranking up to use more HL 11 and HL 9 instead of HL 9 and flash. Overall, it frees up a lot for our raid composition, allowing me to run devotion aura in the tank group rather than needing a shadow priest if there's only one available.

I checked your Armoury to see how your +heal compared, but it seems you've respecced. Could you tell us how much +heal you had over Shaquiloheal, and also how your MP5 compares?

Before I start i'm not holy or wearing my heal gear right now( 2250 healing, 26% spell crit, 200 mp5 raid buffed and around a 13300 mana pool(and the spell haste neck from za))
I see that you have in your beginning post using fol or HL is up to ones taste... however for us even before sunwell I've used HL almost exclusivley. Now,in sunwell, FL isn't even an option in tank healing. It simply isn't enough. For the fights, such as kalegos and brutalis, A healer neeeds to basically be able to keep up the tank by themself. Flash's HPS is not nearly enough. Even on Kaelegos when there are 2 tank healers, If i'm lower on mana I'll use HL rank 7(my+heaing is slightyly lower thna the other pallies, my heal gear is offspec), hitting for around 3400 on the tank. a flash from our 4pt6 pallies is still only hitting for around 2k. so hps wise we are comming up with
FOL-1333, HLr7 -1650
, also With 2pt6 and the talent sanctified light, you have 11% more crit with HL, than with FoL. bringing the HPS up even more( if I calculate my about 26% holy crit raid buffed over lets say a 6 min fight of spams with just those 2)
Guess i will show my work
60*6 = 360 seconds. from my wws report i have .04 seconds time inbetween a heal finishing and the cast of the next one. so cast time (nonhaste) for both would be
Fol-1.54 Hl-2.04
Calculate out how many per time limit is
Fol-233.76
HL-176.47
So now we factor out how many non-crits and crits we have (26%-FoL, 37%-HL)
FoL crits- 60.77 Healing: (2k*1.5)*60.77= 182,310
HL crits- 65.29 Healing: (3.4k*1.5)*65.29= 332,979
FoL non- 172.99 Healing: (2k)* 172.99 = 345,980
HL non- 111.18 Healing: (3.4k)*111.18= 378,012

Total healing per:
FoL = 528,290
HL = 710,991 Significant difference I'd say

So the average HPS for each =
FoL = 1467.47
HL = 1974.98

Not only is HL significanty higher, but it's hps is aproaching FoL's normal hit.

I know there is a MPS used difference I'll find out here.

Cost:
FOlr7 = 180
HLr7 = 465

crits non-crits taken from charts above

FoL crits- 60.77 mana used = 81*60.77 =4,922.37
HL crits- 65.29 mana used = 209*65.29 =13,645.61
FoL non- 172.99 mana used = 180*172.99 =31,138.20
HL non- 111.18 mana used = 465*111.18 =51,698.70

total mana for each
FoL:36,060.57 MPS:100.16
HL :65,344.31 MPS:181.51

mps gained from my mp5 = 40
potions = 16.6
my starting mana pool: 13300
Fol spam time before oom :305 seconds(5.08 min)
HL spam time before oom:106 seconds(1.8 min)
Now this is not including Divine Illumination , or lag time in fights only the mp5 you give yourself back.
On kaelegos with a shaman in my group I have no problem using HLr7 even throwing in some rank 11's
now with a descent shadowpriest this is childsplay.
With our best SP on kaelegos i cna spam rank 11 constantly without worry.

anyway have fun with the hps and stuff info.
give it a try.

The OP is for people that aren't in Sunwell (and was written months before Sunwell). Pre-Sunwell, Flash was still a useful spell, although one could sololy use HL if they wished.

Do other paladins in Sunwell really not use FOL anymore? I've main healed Kalecgos to Muru (no kill) and still find many situations where the tank will not be taking unpredictable spikes eg. Tank on Kalecgos before his arcane debuff stacks, Felmyst when Corruption cooldown is not up, Warlock on Alythess in between blazes etc...

In these situations, I've tried both the HL cast/cancel method, and simply weaving in FOLs (never enough to make Holy Grace drop) instead. Perhaps its the oceanic latency affecting me, but I've mostly concluded that mixing in FOL when I know tank damage is manageable is safer than cast/canceling.

Naturally, once the boss is low enough that I know I can spam HL9 for the remainder of the fight, I do that. This can be almost the entire fight if I have a SP.

I found out that with a good warlock his spikes in twins fight are very predictable. When I first started to heal lock in this fight I went oom pretty fast. Then both lock found suitable movement pattern and I got 'feeling' for blaze casting times and lock getting shadow stuff to clear the flame touched debuff. Basically, you could more or less cast single HL 11 in definite times and don't do any fol or downranking in between (assuming you have a druid with you on lock). Even if you cast HL every 3.5 sec or so (that would be the case while blazing) you would hardly go under 50% mana in p1 due to Spiritual Attunement.

Now, Felmyst - amount of mana you get through SA is so insane, that if you are FoLing you simply don't use your potential fully. Let MT have 1 less healer (if you have more than 2) but paladin HL instead of FoL. I have yet to see myself running oom on him. And as soon as mana isn't an issue I shouldn't cast FoL, should I?

I think rule of thumb is like this:
1. You definitely have to cast some amount on HL11 (during corruption on felmyst, after blaze on twins, etc).
2. You should use highest possible HPS spell as a 'filler' between HL11 while not going oom.

In Sunwell it would usually be HL 7 or 8, not FoL. Before Sunwell you could hardly keep HL11/HL7-9 spam due to lower geared SP and close to non existant damage on you (in most properly executed fights). Thats why HL11/FoL is a good option. But in many Sunwell fights using FoL is hardly optimal. In fights where you risk to go oom (like brutalus) you more or less chaincast HL 11. In other fights, replacing FoL with HL7-9 will buff your HPS without still going oom. I dn't know about Kil'jaeden fight yet though, maybe there FoL can be justified.

EDIT: Question answered.

I have always been one to use holy light over flash, it was my personal preference to time holy lights instead of flashing. One thing I've noticed with getting more spell haste is that I'm much more frequently able to heal the massive burst damage that is involved in the fights.

The only fight I get a sp for is twins b/c I'm on the warlock tank, and the only fight where I have ever come close to running oom is Brut. I usually run like 75% holy light, unless our other paladin who is primarily a flash of light healer goes ret, then I switch to flash of light.

Any mana problems can be overcome with the proper use of consumables and managing cooldowns and pot timing.

I have used HL rank 7 as afar back as bloodboil, propoer usage of 50% less mana on heals and taking bloodboil ticks helped me tremedously there, as well as an upgrade in about 10% holy light crit value.

Btw, in case it was misleading, HL9 is like 70% of my heals in Sunwell. However, that still leaves 30% for FOL, which means that for me it isnt 'not an option for tank healing' and t6 4 piece isnt 'useless' like some posters above stated. But the answers really show that there are Sunwell paladins at all ends of the spectrum.

On one end you have paladins who stack haste, almost never get SPs, and use 50+% FOL
On the other end, you have paladins who use less haste, frequently have SPs, and would rather use HL7 if they ever need to conserve mana as opposed to FOL.

Apparently it all works.
Clearly however, at some point, everyone needs to conserve mana somewhat. Its just a question of HL7 versus FOL.

double post, deleted

The only place where I've found extreme unpredictable spikes has been healing the Void Sentinenl tank on M'uru. We tried doing it with 3 Tanks, and using a Paladin Tank on the Void Sentinel, the lack of Spell Reflect meant extreme spike damage. Even with a Warrior to tag and drag the Void Sentinel you're looking at a possible 8-10k spike damage. After making sure Demo Shout or CoW was up reduced that to 6-7k, but switching to a 4 tank setup meant a lot more movement and positioning.

My given assignments is usually MT healing, and with the level of raid damage that has made Shaman the best thing since sliced bread, even with relatively subpar gear (I took a break from raiding for a good 2.5 months), for boss fights I'm finding myself constantly within Holy Light spam with maybe 3-5 cancels per engagement, if that. The only time I find myself cancelling HL is when I've sync'ed up too much with the big bomb healer on Brut MT's, then I'll use a stutter tap/cancel/heal to de-sync my heals.

With Felmyst, I only FoL spam during the flight phase. When MT/Encapsulate healing I'm bombing HL with no abandon. It's then I wish I had spell haste (unfortunately the drops just haven't gone my way).

The fact is that with the extra 11% crit you get on Holy Light(5 from T6, 6 from talents), Holy Light ends up being what you're using most often. You're getting a lot of mana back from the crits, and the healing is enough whereas with FoL it can very often, especially in SWP, not be enough. Sacrificing all the stats of Lightbringer or Sunblessed for the extra 2% bonus from Vengeful just isn't optimal in SWP as the amount of FoL being used isn't enough to make the bonus worth sacrificing the stats for.

Also, I know if you armory me I am wearing said gloves, but that is only due to my not-so-wonderful luck of the drops. As are a couple other obvious pieces, but that's besides the point.

Soothed Soul = Sunblessed > Lightbringer > Vengeful

Better?

Yes, another reason why the Twins mace is superior compared to Spire for the majority of fights in SWP as a holy paladin. You are simply never randomly flashing people in the raid except on KJ and air-phase Felmyst really.

As for the S3 gloves, yes they are decent but honestly it comes down to both the huge loss of mp5 and the horribly low value of crits for FoL. If you are flashing, you most likely aren't having mana issues and you most likely don't need more HPS(otherwise you'd be holy lighting). If a FoL crits, any paladin really could care less in most situations. Like I said, the gloves are decent but T6 and SWP gloves come out on top mostly due to the huge loss in mp5.

You can also do some simple math: Assuming 1.4sec cast FoL and giving the HUGE benefit of the doubt that you're actually getting off 40 casts a minute(extremely unrealistic), those gloves with illumination are worth ~7.5 mp5 when in reality you're going to end up getting 1-3 FoLs off per minute as a tank healer in SWP and only around 20-30 as a pure raid healer or tank healing in T5-T6 content. Now considering the loss of +heal you're enduring while wearing S3 gloves, it simply isn't worth it.

What confuses me is why the gloves aren't 2% holy light crit, considering they're "PvP" gloves.

Arena PVP is a high-mobility environment with opposing countermagic and interrupts. Providing a boost to the faster casting spells that are less likely to be stopped seems logical enough to me.

No, I was actually issuing a superlative compliment. I found that your post was excellent in every way. I only remarked that I was so surprised by it that I couldn't have ever imagined finding it on a message board (the joke being that helpful, friendly responses seem out of place in web commentary). I apologize if my facetious tone was not conveyed.

Endoscient or and RAWR guru,

Im preparing to use my first 100badges and wanted to make sure I spent them wisely. Using RAWR I was attempting to compare the HPS# of each of the pieces i was looking at to see which HPS# gave the greater increase for me. The numbers came out exactly opposite of what I thought I would see.
Im looking at:

Legs
badge gear - Greaves of Pacification - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
Equiped - Legplates of the Innocent - Legplates of the Innocent - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
Stat Diff:
+32 stam
+7 int
-21 spell crit
+7 mp5
+31 heals
-B soc

badge gear HPS value per RAWR = 78.31
equipped gear HPS value per RAWR = 65.79
upgrade HPS value = 78.31 - 65.79 = 12.52


Chest
Badge Gear - Ecclesiastical Cuirass - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
equiped - Gladiator's Ornamented Chestguard - Gladiator's Ornamented Chestguard - Thottbot: World of Warcraft
Stat Diff:
+7 stam
+13 int
+11 spell crit
+55 heals
+B
-RRY

badge gear HPS value per RAWR = 71.28
equipped gear HPS value per RAWR = 53.61
upgrade HPS value = 71.28 - 53.61 = 17.67

I thought the legs would win but come in far behind. This isn't apples to apples but close, are these numbers right for HPS or am I just reading too much into it and should just take the better rated upgrade?