The Healadin Thread - Page 49

Blutelf · 03/28/08, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by adunsavior

Hi, I'm a paladin who just got into a real big fight with my raid leader, I'm here in hope of someone to give me some suggestions on how to improve my healing.

Scenario:
Main tank gets parry gibbed by Illidan and dies while two paladins are casting FoL on him. Since getting the maintank killed is unacceptable, our raid leader declared that whenever a paladin is main healing the tank, flash of light should not be much used.

It sounds to me like you are victims of miscommunication.

Your raid leader is correct, if for some reason only two Paladins are on the MT which may well happen for a brief period of time during a Ph2 - Ph3 or a Demon - Normal switch, it is obvious that FoL is not the spell you should be using.

I find it highly unlikely that your raid leader assigned only two healers to the Illidan MT and expects you to heal through all of the fight using HL. I also find it highly unlikely that both of you understood what the other one actually said during this argument.

Even so, a T6 geared paladin with a shadow priest and mana pot usage will be able to spam HL 8 for quite a while, definitely through all of phase 2 for example. You definitely should remember that the fight is not over when your mana is, but when the MT dies.

Palados · 03/28/08, 11:15 AM

Well, still, how good is crit for haste paladin compared to mp5? Anyone have done some math?

Now I value 1% crit as 4-6mp5 and about +20 healing for average T6 fight. So 10% haste should increase crit effectiveness by about 0.5 mp5 and a few healing points.

Eradorn · 03/28/08, 12:57 PM

I have read through this forum and found lots of useful macros to switch Librams, but I am wondering if you guys know any Add-ons that can incorporate the Libram switch. I like the mana regen when casting HL but would llike to switch to something useful when casting FoL as well, while using a good healing add-on. I currently use HealBot and love it, but it doesn't seem to have this functionality.

Thanks!

galzohar · 03/28/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Palados

Well, still, how good is crit for haste paladin compared to mp5? Anyone have done some math?

Now I value 1% crit as 4-6mp5 and about +20 healing for average T6 fight. So 10% haste should increase crit effectiveness by about 0.5 mp5 and a few healing points.

No. Crit multiplies the amount of healing you can do with your mana. Casting faster by iteself doesn't make you able to heal more with same conditions, so crit doesn't give you any more total healing done in the fight when you have more haste. That's why your whole crit->mp5 conversion is just plain wrong (it greatly overvalues crit if you assume it's for HL spamming or undervalues crit if you assume it for pure FoL spam).
Casting faster does allow a bit more efficiency since you'll less often run into needing to use less efficient spell, but that effect is much much smaller than your "10% haste -> 10% more gain from crit".

Another way to explain this is that you can't assume you chaincast non-stop yet still care about mana. Those 2 situations cannot exist at the same time, as if you need mana you already cannot cast that spell 100% of the time and if you already have the mana to cast the spell 100% of the time additional mana will not change it, meaning your whole "I use X mana/sec and get Y of it back per 1 crit rating and therefore 1 crit rating is worth X*Y MP5" is completely wrong.

vorda · 03/28/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Eradorn

I have read through this forum and found lots of useful macros to switch Librams, but I am wondering if you guys know any Add-ons that can incorporate the Libram switch. I like the mana regen when casting HL but would llike to switch to something useful when casting FoL as well, while using a good healing add-on. I currently use HealBot and love it, but it doesn't seem to have this functionality.

Thanks!

Librameister, but I personally strongly favor macros.
(its on wowace I think)

Mirkael · 03/28/08, 9:59 PM

No one have done the maths for stats equivalence for pallys?

... i really cant understand why all classes have a "consensus" about stats equivalence, besides holy pallys.

Ragnor · 03/28/08, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mirkael

No one have done the maths for stats equivalence for pallys?

... i really cant understand why all classes have a "consensus" about stats equivalence, besides holy pallys.

I think you will find there isn't really a "consensus" for other classes either. Stat equivalence is just broad generalization and fairly useless. There are too many factors that vary.

Mirkael · 03/29/08, 1:07 AM

In fact... for DPS there is little to no variation. X of each stats gives you Y of DPS so thats all that matters.
For healers its more complex since you want to balance Mana efficiency with HP/S, and this two stats have no simple mathematic relation.
But all other healing classes have stats equivalence.

A 22 Heal gem is better them a 10 crit one? Or a 11 heal 5 int?
Im sure you can prove with the right math, that one is superior to the others.
Not in all cases, but for the typical ones:
You need to varie party composition, and fight leght and calculate the best stats for that.

The only real problem is how to create a mathematic relation between Mana efficiency and HP/S.

Edit:

Btw, if you dont believe in a stats equivalence, them how you gear yourself?
Why some choose Heal, others Crit or Mp5?
Probably cause they think that stats worth more them the others...
Having "some of everything" is useless... (like people that gem 4MP5 on Girdle of Hope cause "It lacks MP5, i gem MP5 it becomes a great belt!")

galzohar · 03/29/08, 6:31 AM

Actually efficiency is not hard to calculate (although not easy either, the thread explaining it seems to had been deleted so I can't refer to it).

HPS is not hard to calculate, either.

However the stat equivalence you'll get from calculating HPS will be extremely different than the stat equivalence you'll get from calculating efficiency. So while you could make a spreadsheet that will tell you how much burst and how much efficiency every item gives you, choosing which item is actually better will depend on how much you really need that extra efficiency and how much you need that extra burst HPS. On addition the amount of mana regen you get (mostly from shadowpriest vs no shadowpriest but also from resto shaman and gear) will make a big difference on your stat equivalence when looking at efficiency.

If you look at other healer threads you'll see they don't have agreeable stat equivalences either, for the same reasons as here.

It is easy to prove, however, that 22 healing is better than 10 crit rating or 11 heal 5 int. It's even probably true in pretty much all cases that 18 healing is better than 10 crit rating. 18 healing vs 11 heal 5 int though depends. If one stat provides both higher efficiency and higher HPS then it's obviously better, however in many cases you'll be comparing a stat that gives higher HPS with one that gives higher efficiency (say, haste VS +healing, or 18 healing VS 11 healing 5 int in a no-shadowpriest situation).

Why some choose Heal, others Crit or Mp5?

When people have no clue what stat is best, they go for whatever feels right, which is 99/100 wrong, but also very often (as long as your choices aren't totally dumb) more than good enough to get you all the way through the game. Even in some cases of totally dumb choices you'd still manage.

You'll see even on the mage/lock forums, where it is quite clear how good every stat is compared to others (with a very small margin of error), you'll see the odd "I like crit" mage or "haste>>all" (it's good but not really noticeably better than other DPS stats if at all better) warlock with all kind of wierd arguments that make no sense. Guess what if they focus in raids they'll probably still clear the game anyway, but their DPS will be quite inferior.

Palados · 03/29/08, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

No. Crit multiplies the amount of healing you can do with your mana. Casting faster by iteself doesn't make you able to heal more with same conditions, so crit doesn't give you any more total healing done in the fight when you have more haste. That's why your whole crit->mp5 conversion is just plain wrong (it greatly overvalues crit if you assume it's for HL spamming or undervalues crit if you assume it for pure FoL spam).
Casting faster does allow a bit more efficiency since you'll less often run into needing to use less efficient spell, but that effect is much much smaller than your "10% haste -> 10% more gain from crit".

Another way to explain this is that you can't assume you chaincast non-stop yet still care about mana. Those 2 situations cannot exist at the same time, as if you need mana you already cannot cast that spell 100% of the time and if you already have the mana to cast the spell 100% of the time additional mana will not change it, meaning your whole "I use X mana/sec and get Y of it back per 1 crit rating and therefore 1 crit rating is worth X*Y MP5" is completely wrong.

I see that we always make different assumptions and look at things from a different point of view. I agree that haste itself won't let me heal more with my mana. However this is irrelevant information for me as a raid healer. I don't really care how much I can heal with my mana, I am interested in maintaining certain lvl of HPS through the fight. Question about efficiency ALWAYS comes after the question about HPS. If you can't maintain HPS that is required from you, your efficiency doesn't matter. Now, haste is more or less centered around HPS. As you mentioned, it doesn't really increase efficiency and I agree with you. Now, imagine that my spell pattern is fixed and nothing disturbs it. Will 10% haste increase extra HPS from crits by 10%? Yes, it will. As it will increase extra HPS from +healing by 10%. Will 10% haste increase MPS gained from crits by 10%? Yes, it will. I DO receive 10% more HPS and MPS from crits. Will it influence my mp5 stat? No, it won't.

OK, now my main point. How we should compare mana returned from crit and mp5? From HPS-centered point of view both are only means to increase the time over which you can maintain your HPS (till oom basically). Let's say without any haste 1 mp5 will make my required HPS longer by x sec and 1% crit makes it longer by y sec. With haste 1 mp5 will increase my time by x1 sec (obvioulsy x1<x) and 1% crit will increase my time by y1<y. I am now claiming that y/x < y1/x1. That means that crit effectiveness scales better with haste for me.

And once again return to your words:

so crit doesn't give you any more total healing done in the fight when you have more haste

Your statement is completely wrong unless you change it into "so crit doesn't give you any more total healing done with your mana when you have more haste". You don't take into acount fight length and the amount of mana I have during the fight. If I always do have half mana bar after some certain fight, I clearly would benefit from haste that allows me to burn it faster (and replace 1 healer by extra dps for example). Lets imagine after adding 10% haste I would still end at 10% of my mana bar. In this situation crit will add more total healing done in the fight after I added haste. Since part of that extra mana that I spent was causing crits that actually increased total healing done in this fight.

Also in RoS P2 maximal available mana goes down faster than paladins could burn it (I don't consider stupid mindless HL spam). In this situation crit surely would add to total healing done, since it's not your mana determines how much you can heal but the rate at which your mana pool shrinks.

P. S. I valued my crit using my averaged T6 wws graphs. So that number means that adding 1% of crit would give me back about as much mana as X mp5 added for an averaged T6 fight. I don't see why it shouldn't be a reasonable emphirical estimate of crit vs mp5 value for me.

galzohar · 03/29/08, 3:40 PM

I never said haste was bad, I said haste was bad for efficiency. Obviously you need a certain level of efficiency (total healing done with your mana in a fight) and a certain level of HPS. If you fall short on *either* of those you will fail the fight. In most normal cases you will have enough of both, really, so it's just a matter of what's more likely to go wrong - you needing to do some extra heals and using more mana because someone took an un-needed doomfire or you needing to pop some bigger burst because too many healers took watery graves at the same time.

You can't look at the value of efficiency if you have mana left at the end of the fight. If you don't use all your mana, increasing your mana will add nothing. Adding more mana efficiency will only help when you actually have something to do with that mana, or in other words finish the fight dry, or at least have a chance to finish it near-dry if things go reasonably bad (unreasonably bad would be a wipe anyway). It's up to you to define how much efficiency is required in a fight. Almost exactly the same kind of arguments can be repeated concerning HPS.

Now once you're already using all your mana, having more haste will have little effect on how much healing you did with that mana over the fight, and thus the benefit of crit to your efficiency will barely change compared to a no-haste situation with same gear.

Also crit doesn't increase "burst" HPS as by definition you need that burst in a worst-case-scenario and by definition on that scenario you're not going to crit (becuase if you did crit it's not a worst-case scenario). It's like a tank stacking dodge over stamina - it reduces your average damage taken but doesn't reduce your ability to handle worst-case scenario, same way crit increases your overall healing done if you use all your mana but doesn't increase your ability to handle a worst-case-scenario.

You're assuming you need to maintain a certain level of HPS over the entire encounter. This is both not favoring crit (bad no-crit string and you fail so crit doesn't help get through the fight in terms of HPS requirements) and not even true to start with. Most fights require some pretty modest HPS for the most part and have periods during which you need higher HPS. The "HPS I can maintain over the fight using all my mana" is completely irrelevent and even if it was relevent, it wouldn't change anything about how you looked at haste, as you just used the same amount of mana for the same amount of healing meaning haste did nothing.

I'm not saying haste is useless, not at all, but you need to look at what it actually does and what it doesn't do. Haste increases your max burst and gives a tiny efficiency increase (doesn't increase healing done with same mana but allows a slightly more efficient spell distribution thus saving SMALL amounts of mana per point of haste). Haste doesn't make crit better because you cast more spells/sec nor becuase you use more mana/sec, because at the end of the day your available mana for the fight is NOT dependant on your haste.

Ignoring HPS->MP5 benefits (which you should take into account if you want to accurately make calculations) but good enough to show how it works, the healing you can do over a fight if you use all your mana is:
(mana without crits) * (HP/mana of your heals) / (1 - 0.6*crit)
As you can see this does not depend on casting speed.

If you still have mana left at the end of the fight and want to use it, remember nobody can spam rank11 HLs for the full fight duration and not go oom. This means you could've casted more spells than you did without going oom, and haste wasn't needed to do that.
However if you lost someone due to not having enough burst, yet had mana left at the end of the fight, increasing HPS at the cost of efficiency would be what you want. But start by increasing HPS by using higher HPS spells (more spells, higher ranks of HLs, more HLs over FoLs) before resorting to gear changes that will end up losing more efficiency per HPS gained than simple spell changes would. "Only" where max rank HLs fail is where haste (and healing) over mp5 (and healing) wins. With how fights are made nowadays, though, that "only" seems to be quite important and that's why haste doesn't suck at all.

On a side note evaluating crit based on WWS is compltely flawed, as it doesn't take into account the extra mana you would've gained if you actually used the mana you had left at the end of the fight. Would you have used that mana, crit would've returned more than WWS showed, making crit better than what it looks like on WWS (if you didn't use all your mana, if you used all your mana then WWS will show exactly the same as theorycrafting would). And if you had a noticeably amount of mana left at the end why do you care about how much extra mana crit gives?

tholex · 03/30/08, 1:59 PM

For healing output increase of haste rating vs healing based on current amounts of the other (average values of max rank FoL and R9HL used), BoL up and the [Libram of Souls Redeemed] equipped:

Started off using my usual stats: (I'll call this normal, and it's slightly unrepresentative since I'm pulling 130 mp5 unbuffed)
HasteR=0
+Heal=2000
CritChance=.25 (Crit HL = .3)
BoL=yes
Libram=yes
Haste Constant = .01/ 15.76 = .0006345

--------------------------+Heal-----------BOL factor ----CritRate, not Rating ------- Haste Rating -------
HPSFoLwCrit = [ (475 + Heal*.429 + (185 + 60)) * ((1-Crit)+Crit*1.5) ] / (1.5(1-HasteR*HasteConst))
HPSFoLwCrit = 1183.5

HPSHL10wCrit = [ (1940 + Heal*.714 + (580 + 120)) * ((1-Crit)+Crit*1.5) ] / (2.0(1-HasteR*HasteConst))
HPSHL10wCrit = 2339.1

Then, I compared the effectiveness of +Healing vs Haste vs Crit rating in terms of HPS ONLY. This in no way takes in healing efficiency, or any of that stuff. I took the epic gems equivalency of 10 crit rating = 10 haste rating = 22 Healing (although it is suspected healing is actually 22.5 due to blue gem equivalencies). I multiplied these values by 5 to increase effect. (50 rating = 110 +heal)

SCENARIOS are as above, but with one of the three stats added.

+110 Healing:
FoLHPS = 1218.8925
% increase (WRT normal state) = 2.99 %
HL HPS = 2384.26
% increase (WRT normal state) = 1.9 %

+50 crit (2.273 % crit):
FoLHPS = 1195.46
% increase = 1.01 %
HL HPS = 2362.216
% increase = .988 %

+50 Haste:
FoLHPS = 1222.28
%increase = 3.28 %
HL HPS = 2415.74
%increase = 3.28 %

As you can see, Haste is better than +heal for both spells' healing output, but more so for HL than FoL. Considering that haste also decreases your mana efficiency by the same % as it increases your output, I would recommend stacking it >>only if you're safe for mana consumption and badly need to increase your healing from HL<<. Otherwise, + heal seems better. Also, this shows that crit is >bad< for healing output, as it's about half as effective than +heal for HL, and 1/3 as effective as +heal for FoL.

ON ANOTHER NOTE: Intellect is almost as good for healing output as +crit for FoL.

since +50 int = 50*1.21 (BOK and the 10% talent) * .35 +Healing
And 50*.014 crit % = .7, not to mention the increase to mana pool,

+50 Int:
FoLHPS = 1194.02
% increase = .889 %
HLHPS = 2354.939
% increase = .677 %

And since our efficiency goes up geometrically with mana pool (illumination as well as mp5 on current and illumination mana), intellect is a very worthwhile "balance" stat, although geared more toward mana efficiency / staypower rather than thoroughput.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Additional notes (not bothering to put up related data)
- a mix of two stats produces approximately the average of the two effects by %, meaning 25 haste, 55 healing produces 3.131%, etc.
- If you use FoL a LOT, and finish fights with <10% mana generally, stack +heal to improve healing output. If you're finding yourself high on mana, use [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle], and stack haste / healing mix.
- If you're using HL a lot, I'd say go with haste / int / crit. This increases your efficiency, haste is your best bet for output, and most importantly, quicker HL's means faster target switching/ quicker heals, which in my experience has been a keystone of healing.
- With a higher set of gear (2100 healing, 30 crit, 60 haste), the same 50/50/110 increases provided similar % increases. Notably, haste became slightly better (3.45% vs 3.28), the others were within .05% of the values above. At a lower gearset, not that it matters much, healing, went up in value slightly, haste went down in value slightly. In both cases, crit was just as bad.
- The breakpoint of haste > + heal (FoL) for HPS is around 1700-1750 healing, before that, +heal is better. This means that Pre-T5 geared paladins should not go for haste, rather + heal to improve their FoL
- Libram of Souls Redeemed / BoL Missing in effect dropped the data to that of one step lower on the gear, so % increases from stats became like that of a lower set of gear. This means without BoL / +Souls Redeemed, +Healing actually ties haste in output for FoL.

Mirkael · 03/30/08, 3:30 PM

Tholex:

Based on your math, you can reach a stats equivalence to HP/S.

If you do the same to HP/M, (using total mana pool as base), and them compare the value of each attribute in both "charts", we may be able to reach a descent stats comparison to holy pallys.

I really dont know, why no one tryed this yet... or everyone failed miserably?

galzohar · 03/30/08, 5:32 PM

There had already been a spreadsheet (by Darion) running around to calculate efficiency and a thread I posted (that seemed to had been deleted) explaining how to adjust it to take into account estimated crit overhealing as well as HPS->mp5 conversion. It also included an explanation how to calculate your burst HPS you have available to save people.

You have to remember that increasing the HPS of FoL doesn't help (much) to save people from dying, it only saves you from using less HLs and thus providing very small efficiency. The only (and important) situation where haste helps is when someone takes large amount of damage and even your max rank heal has a hard time catching up to the damage and you want to have the max possible to safely save him. In any other case you can just use a higher rank instead of gearing more haste, which would give a lot bigger HPS increase per efficiency loss than gearing haste. Crit does nothing in such a situation as if you run into those situations where it's so borderline wether he lives or dies that you need to squeeze every bit of healing speed, you want to have the best healing possible when you don't crit so he doesn't die when you don't crit (and not critting happens extremely often even with full crit gear and crit gems).

Bottom line is average HPS calculations are completely pointless, as you never need to put up "average HPS" throut the fight. You need to put some minimal to average HPS (which is generally greatly lower than the HPS of your max rank HL or else fights would've been impossible) most of the time and on occasions some major HPS burst.

While haste will help slightly with efficiency during periods that require minimal to average HPS by allowing use of more efficient spells while keeping the HPS requirement up, it's not much as haste does *only* that. Crit also gives a little bit of that on top of the mana returns and bit of extra effective healing but due to the low effective healing of crit it's just a side effect (which I was taking into account but it's rather small compared to the normal crit benefits). +healing and haste are the only stats that give mention-worthy increase to efficiency through increasing HPS, although the HPS->efficiency is not big. Since +healing already provides decent efficiency by increasing HPM, the additional HPS->HPM conversion makes it an extra-good efficiency stat that also increases HPS by not a lot less than haste does. If you're lacking shadow priest mp5 will still win for efficiency, and haste will always win for burst HPS, but if you feel you need both on an equal level +healing is by far the best as it loses the least of both worlds (yet it doesn't mean it's optimal, as we all know if your burst is too low your efficiency is worth nothing, while if you go oom all that burst goes to hell as well).

If you're going to do pure HPS calculations, they should either be the "how much HPS can by emergency HL do" or "how muc HPS can my pre-casted FoL + reactively casted emergency HL do".

If you're going to do pure efficiency calculations, you'll have to estimate your crit overhealing and have to take into account all raid and party buffs and available gear, as well as how often you're forced to HL to boost your HPS and how much increasing (average) HPS will reduce your need to HL and increase your efficiency.

Average HPS has no use other than a small increase to efficiency by requiring less max rank HLs. It will not make you save people better. Of course having more healing/haste will increase your max rank HL (and precasted FoL + reactively casted HL HPS) which will help you save people, but the actual calculation of FoL and low rank HL HPS has no meaning when it comes to saving people with emergency heals.

Running dry at the end of the fight with higher healing/mp5/int will do more total healing than running dry at the end of the fight with higher haste. And with healing more aggressively you can always use more mana (although it'll naturally go to overhealing if the raid doesn't take the damage...), so "I need haste to do more healing because I have mana left at the end of the fight" is an invalid argument.

A more valid argument for max HPS gearing would be "most of the time my raid doesn't need healing but sometimes you just need to get that tank back up ASAP". That argument works much better as a reason for gearing for max +healing and haste as that's what that kind of gearing helps with. Any other reasoning and you're probably better off with max efficiency calculations.

Bubblemasta · 03/30/08, 9:01 PM

I believe threads that haven't been posted in for x get archived and are only accessible by benefactors. I'd say this is where your threads gone, so you may have to talk nicely to one of the admin if you want it resurrected.

Though going back a few pages (you post a link to this thread at least once a page), the link still works fine.
[Paladin] Holy raid itemization for best performance

Holy Librams! appears to have been updated for 2.4 and is a nice way of taking advantage of the 2.4 Libram changes. I’m not sure if the developer have a more official link, but the PTR link has been updated and works fine on live.
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