The Healadin Thread - Page 50

Mirkael · 03/30/08, 9:40 PM

Bubblemasta:
The problem with this sheet is that it overvalue Mp5 over anything else.
And healing seems to not worth really much, same with hast.

It even considers 4mp5 gems as the best possible in every slot.
(It undervalue sockets too, if u delete the sockets, and add 0 sockets but add to the iten the attributes of a gem of that color, you will get a higher "points" iten.)
Another problem is not having a option to add a ShadowPriest or a shaman buffs...

Idk, it seems to lack too much to be really useful for stats comparison...

tholex · 03/30/08, 9:59 PM

But there are fights where average healing/s matters. Sure, you're not putting out that healing/s all the time, but HPS matters.

For instance, spirit bolts on Hexlord - FoL / HLx3 or so is a good answer to it, and your performance during the spirit bolts is basically your HPS, which increases with both +heal and +haste.

I do agree that crit and the average HPS values are a worthless comparison, but I just put them there to make sure people don't start trying to debase my stuff with "just gear crit" or something.

Also, I did mention it in my bigger post above, but haste is very useful in keeping up a raid. having a 1.2s FoL with scarab is far far more utility than just a % hps increase. It means you can heal up more targets in a certain timespan in clutch times, such as Naj'entus.

And the difference between switching to HL and dropping more FoL's is usually just 1k damage, it's not like you're going to wait until the tank is 4k under your usual switch limit to switch to HL. Which means a few heals healing for +200 more earlier will help you now. Of course this doesn't affect situations such as massive spike / parrygib damage, but even then, the HL values are a good measure of how good of an improvement in those situations will those stats provide. It is still a worthwhile measure.

Bubblemasta · 03/30/08, 10:23 PM

I wasn’t endorsing the content of the thread or spread sheet (I stack crit so I’ve been told and proven enough times that I’m wrong). I was simply helping Galzohar find the thread again since he thought it was deleted.

Mirkael · 03/30/08, 11:02 PM

I see...

But still, this chart isnt really useful IMO. ^^

vorda · 03/31/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mirkael

I see...

But still, this chart isnt really useful IMO. ^^

Can you start contributing instead of posting empty and useless comments like this? Its pretty much all you have done so far here and keeping it up will get you banned quickly on these forums.

Mirkael · 03/31/08, 7:28 AM

lol

I'm giving my opnion. If you think my opnion isnt relevant, well not my problem.

I justifyed why i said that:
1- The chart doesnt take into account the minimum HP/S you need to keep a Tank in Hyjal/BT
2- The chart have wrong values for socket slots. If you change them by the actual gem stats, the iten gains "points".
3- It overvalue Mp5. If you follow it, you should be using 4mp5 Gems on all sockets.

I'm trying to do my own math, but im sure they are far from correct. If by any chanse i feel that i find something right i will post here, but im not gonna post anything im not sure about.

The only thing i dont understand i why people keep the Crit/Heal/Hast?/Mp5 fight, and dont use real mathematic models to reach a value for Crit/Heal/Hast HP/S (based on a static value of "gear level") and another model for total healed by your mana pool on a fight of X minutes (based too on a static value of "gear level").

I'm trying to reach that models, if i find they are right i will post them.

If someone with better math want to try, i would be grateful.

Amera · 03/31/08, 7:43 AM

Honestly after healing the first three fights in Sunwell, I think haste is pretty much the most important stat paladins should be stacking once they get to that level of gear. The only thing you bring to the raid that other people don't is burst healing on the tank. If you can't sustain the heals that are necessary to keep your tank alive then there is a problem with your healing strategy, most likely. In general as a class we need more ways to dump our mana to keep people alive, rather than ways to increase our longevity, and haste is really the most reliable way to do that at present.

MasterLoco · 03/31/08, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Amera

Honestly after healing the first three fights in Sunwell, I think haste is pretty much the most important stat paladins should be stacking once they get to that level of gear. The only thing you bring to the raid that other people don't is burst healing on the tank. If you can't sustain the heals that are necessary to keep your tank alive then there is a problem with your healing strategy, most likely. In general as a class we need more ways to dump our mana to keep people alive, rather than ways to increase our longevity, and haste is really the most reliable way to do that at present.

They seem be become more rare as time goes by, but you are one of the people that still understand how you should equip your paladin & how to socket your gear etc. Personaly I'm playing with the idea of just socketting 2 11healing 2mp5 gems & socket all the rest of my sunwell gear with 10spell haste gems. Dunno yet if I'm gonna go through with it or cap spellhaste at a certain point & just go healing from there but in theory socketting spell haste will give me more HPS then any other gem. Also paladins are mostly main tank healers, with the spellhaste you will get alot more healing ticks on your tank then you can get without any spell haste. And from my point of view it is still better to heal a tank for 1500 every 1.5seconds then to heal it for 2000 every 2seconds just to give an easy example.

Having killed Brutallus yesterday, I can only say, it is so incredibly sweet to have 1.4second passive cast time on flash of light & 1.87sec on holy light (112 spell haste). The more spell haste you stack the easier it is to generate a high amount of HPS with just FoL & thus at a very low mana cost. Brutallus will most likely be the most healing intensive encounter in this instance & honestly I did not rly have any mana issues yesterday & I rly didn't need any mp5 gear for that. Like Amera said... a paladin needs ways to dump mana rather then ways to increase longevity.
Socketting for MP5 instead of raw healing or spell haste is just like Vorda mentioned a few pages ago: a sign of slacking on mana potions or bad healing assignment.

Mirkael · 03/31/08, 9:44 AM

Amera:
Right now i dont have acess to much hast gear, and i would really like to hear about how bad its for the mana efficiency. (I know, i know it doesnt make you less efficient, its just that it dont make you more efficient either, and you are trading efficiency stats, (Mp5 and Crit) for it.)

I understand what you say, but if you go OOM the tank will dies too.
How much MP5 and Crit u stacked before being able to heal, using hast, a 6min long, and extremaly heal intensive fight?

When doing Illidari and Illidan, did you swap much pieces of gear to Mp5 or Crit?

Right now, my calculations shows me that:
Hast is totally underated by most pallys.
We need to just use +heal, to reach 2200-2300 +heal, them Hast becomes the primary stats to HP/S.
Crit need to stand at astlast 20-25% unbuffed in holy, and them you can stack Mp5, probably 200+, but atlast 150 unbuffed.

Since im not yet doing Sunwell, im still farming BT/Hyjal, i would like to know how mana intensive is the fights you face there.
I know that in BT/Hyjal the mana intensive fights are:
Illidari (Healing the Tank of the Pally)
Illidan (Healing the Tank of the Flame)
Archimond ( If people keep standing in fire... )
Najentus (If u want to top meters and spam HL on raid when his bubble breaks) (i know, not really relevant xD)

The others are pretty easy on mana, mainly if u chain pot.

Since we still dont know some of Sunwell fights, it will be useless to try theorycraft what is better for sunwell now.

If kiljaeden proves to be a long mana intensive fight, all the theorycraft of stacking Hast for sunwell will become useless. Well not useless, its still better them +Heal once you hit the 2300+ healing, but we will need alot more of Mp5, and we will be unable to really STACK hast.

Palados · 03/31/08, 10:41 AM

If someone has more time than me and can write

real mathematic models to reach a value for Crit/Heal/Hast HP/S (based on a static value of "gear level") and another model for total healed by your mana pool on a fight of X minutes (based too on a static value of "gear level").

for MATLAB (for 8-32 processors) I can use my supercomputer time to make a good simulation.

Gal, you value your effectiveness/HPS assuming that healing should be more or less the same. I mean 'having more +heal will allow you cast more FoL' etc. But in reality leaders (me at least) decrease number of healers when gear progresses, therefore you will be forced to cast even less FoL with more +heal. For example we went from 9 to 6healing Najentus. And I know a guild that 3heals teron (shammy, priest and pala). Pala solo healing MT in teron fight means you can put FoL spam in the a$$.

The "HPS I can maintain over the fight using all my mana" is completely irrelevent and even if it was relevent, it wouldn't change anything about how you looked at haste, as you just used the same amount of mana for the same amount of healing meaning haste did nothing.

You do realize that HPS is a derivative of healing done? So second statement sounds really weird. While I would do same amount of healing, I would actually do it in a shorter time and therefore HPS WOULD be higher. Also higher HPS I have to maintain (and thus wanting haste) means that we got healer less and dps extra thus having fight duration decreased. Also, you say if I would have mana left I don't bother with mana, if I wouldn't then haste wouldn't increase efficiency. But for me haste is exactly the mean to go from "half mana pool" to ''dry" state for the same fight. For me having haste and not having haste changes assumptions (my point of view in this thread is "do not fix what is not broken" and thus i assume that if I want to change/resocket my gear than something doesn't work now), while you assume the same situation with and without haste.

Before debating let's agree on terms. For me HPS is a function of time (basically discrete derivative of healing done). Minimal level of HPS I have to maintain over fight time (let us call it iDPS - incoming DPS) is discrete variable of damage done to the target that I have to heal. If I have to heal more targets than 1, then I have to discretize damage done on a longer period of time, since I can't heal few targets at one time.

First of all I have to be able to cover maximums of iDPS - you call it bursts. In this case haste is the best stat to have per iPoint.

Secondly, I should be able to keep HPS>=iDPS over the full fight duration. You say, that I should consider as a desired scenario (for comparing different stats) the case when I go oom exactly at the end of the fight. And this is one of the points where I don't agree with you. On one hand in real T6 fight we don't want it (it means we could wipe if we would figh 30sec longer for example). But imagine you do go oom, then it means that you cast HL quite often, actually often enough to not even being close to FoL spam (and this screws your logic of stacking heal and do more FoL and less HL). If you gear for high +heal since it's more effective stat to stack and use +22heal gems in every slot you most probably DON'T EVER go oom in 95% of T6 fights.

Now I am getting closer to my itemization paradigm. What is more important - being able to heal burst or being able to keep healing high enough during the fight? From my experience in T6 content (and I found out that healing there differs from healing in T4-5 content) being able to heal bursts on your target is more important than being able to heal long enough. Basically, your assignement bursts should be covered by you while small iDPS would be covered by other healers/hots/aoe heals etc. Therefore I now value haste quite high since it helps me to cover bursts. Healing spike damage is reactive in principle. But this creates a dilemma, since you reactive healing increase the chanses for your tank to be killed while you cast the spell. How one can solve it?

There are 2 types of spike damage - predictable and non predictable. Predictable means that you either know when spike is going to happen and can chaincast HL11 for a few secs. Or you know for sure that after that spike the probability of other spike is very small (for example mother saber lash). In second case reactive healing is OK. If you fight a boss with a lot of unpredictable spike damage, then you are more or less forced to use relatively high ranks of HL (like 7-9) as a chaincast. Or you can use high haste to make casts faster and therefore decrease the probability of tank getting killed. Also crit is nice to have in this scenario (you say I don't need crit mana if I stay half filled at the end but for me crit gives me that extra mana to stay half filled at the end and thats what I want since it means I am more flexible if usual non 'oh shit' healing leaves me with mana).

One more fact - I was looking on Brutallus fight with SP and there +10 crit gem was about as good as +22heal gem. In simplified formula '(mana without crits) * (HP/mana of your heals) / (1 - 0.6*crit)' you have to take into acount the fact that variable HP is increasing with increased crit %. You also have to take into acount that you exclusively HL there, example: 98 HL vs 0 FoL, 99 HL vs 3 FoL, 92 HL vs 0 FoL (Winternight - WWS).

Palados · 03/31/08, 10:53 AM

P. P. S. Just an observation - most paladins in top guilds and in guilds killed 2-3 Sunwell bosses don't have 22heal in every slot. They actually do have quite some crit and haste, including both crit and haste gems. I am theoretical physicist and I know that if a good theory says that something has to be done in a way X, but experimentalists do it in a way Y, then most probably that theory doesn't work or for any reason it's more convinient to do it way Y. If theorycrafting says go +heal gems in all slots but best paladins don't do it, there should be a reason behind it.

tholex · 03/31/08, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mirkael

Amera:

Right now, my calculations shows me that:
Hast is totally underated by most pallys.
We need to just use +heal, to reach 2200-2300 +heal, them Hast becomes the primary stats to HP/S.
Crit need to stand at astlast 20-25% unbuffed in holy, and them you can stack Mp5, probably 200+, but atlast 150 unbuffed.
...

I've showed in my calculations above that haste becomes better for FoL at about 1750 + heal, not the 2200 range, and is better than +heal for any serious level of +heal (> like 1000).

Haste is the primary stat for HPS, AND is better than just a +heal increase, since you can switch targets and provide faster response.

20% crit unbuffed in holy is reachable with 0 crit gems at T5 gear, and T6 certainly, and unless you're >constantly< running without a shammy / shadowpriest / draenei priest in the group, and only spamming FoL is really the only time you want >120-130 mp5.

I don't have any experience in late BT / Archi, Sunwell, but it seems to me even now, with 1-2 T6 level pieces, that Haste is the best way to go to improve my utility in the raid (I'm at 2000 healing unbuffed, usually ~2150 in raids). I would have to agree with Amera, and put some bounds to it, that once you get to about 2000+heal / 100mp5 / 22-23, which is about full T5 set, haste is the way to go, keeping these three minimum bounds.

And really all this is variable, if you're using like 50/50 HL / FoL, you'd probably be better off dropping 20mp5 and getting to 27% crit or something like that, and then stacking haste. It all depends on how you like to heal.

MasterLoco · 03/31/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mirkael

Amera: Right now i dont have acess to much hast gear, and i would really like to hear about how bad its for the mana efficiency. (I know, i know it doesnt make you less efficient, its just that it dont make you more efficient either, and you are trading efficiency stats, (Mp5 and Crit) for it.)

How is mp5 an efficiency stat when you never run out of mana? Imo you shouldn't make use of the haste gear (Teron belt for example) since you sacrifice too much other usefull stats. But when it comes to socketting there is nothing better in game 10 spell haste gems imo. There is no other stat that will increase your efficiency more, not even raw 22healing gems.

I understand what you say, but if you go OOM the tank will dies too.

You don't go OOM...

How much MP5 and Crit u stacked before being able to heal, using hast, a 6min long, and extremaly heal intensive fight?
When doing Illidari and Illidan, did you swap much pieces of gear to Mp5 or Crit?

No... regular maxxed out +healing gear. And yes I was spam healing all over the place.

Right now, my calculations shows me that:
Hast is totally underated by most pallys.
We need to just use +heal, to reach 2200-2300 +heal, them Hast becomes the primary stats to HP/S.
Crit need to stand at astlast 20-25% unbuffed in holy, and them you can stack Mp5, probably 200+, but atlast 150 unbuffed.

Haste is imo a new factor, since before 2.4 spellhaste didn't reduce the global cooldown & thus didn't matter for flash of light. In addition the haste gear from BT isn't really better then T6 counterparts

Since im not yet doing Sunwell, im still farming BT/Hyjal, i would like to know how mana intensive is the fights you face there.

Kalecgos & Brutallus are pretty healing intensive... so is felmyst but in a different way. Since on felmyst you will take alot of healing & thus regen a load of mana. Haven't killed Felmst yet but didn't rly have any mana issues yesterday.

If kiljaeden proves to be a long mana intensive fight, all the theorycraft of stacking Hast for sunwell will become useless. Well not useless, its still better them +Heal once you hit the 2300+ healing, but we will need alot more of Mp5, and we will be unable to really STACK hast.

It doesn't get any more intensive then Brutallus... Kil'jaeden is most likely gonna be a long epic fight much like C'thun back in the days. A control fight where tactics are the best way to succes rather then pure gear.

On top of that... untill now there has not been 1 single fight in this entire game from Lucifron over Kel'thuzad (hell I killed Kel'thuzad in full Judgement) to Illidan where a paladin needed mana regen... I don't see why all of a sudden I would need any on Kil'jaeden.

More pots... all I can say rly.

Originally Posted by Palados

P. P. S. Just an observation - most paladins in top guilds and in guilds killed 2-3 Sunwell bosses don't have 22heal in every slot. They actually do have quite some crit and haste, including both crit and haste gems. I am theoretical physicist and I know that if a good theory says that something has to be done in a way X, but experimentalists do it in a way Y, then most probably that theory doesn't work or for any reason it's more convinient to do it way Y. If theorycrafting says go +heal gems in all slots but best paladins don't do it, there should be a reason behind it.

Most paladin use other gems then 22healing in order to activate the meta socket. Most paladins socket Insightful Earthstorm Diamond in their meta which requires you to have 2 blue & 2 yellow sockets to. Usualy filled by 2 x 11healing 2mp gems & 2 orange/yellow gems. Cause eventhou mp5 is not rly important for paladins, IED reduces the mana cost of your heals by 15. Which is alot more usefull then 26 poor healing for the alternative meta gem.

What I find really disturbing these days is how people think intelect & mp5 is good for paladins... yes it's nice to have. But NEVER at the expense of other stats. Never ever...

Mirkael · 03/31/08, 2:26 PM

Well, idk about you, but i go oom in some fights, and i use pots on every CD in all fights.
Illidan, illidari are the most important ones.

Maybe its cause of bad raid healing assign, that obligate me to sometime save the life of someone with a HL.
Other possibility is the fact that i need to use alot of Max rank HL on those fights, most of the time, its just me and a druid on the Tank that takes the Pally on counsil, or on the tank that take the Flame.

If my efficiency was better, on fights the tank takes little damage, i would be able to help on raid heal even more them i do now, like on Najentus.

If u never leave the Tank target, you probably will have alot less mana inssues, but my guild have weak healing, and i need to help with all i can.
And 90% of the times i raid without shaman, boomkin or SP on my party...

Amera · 03/31/08, 4:14 PM

I've been collecting a haste set once I heard about the incoming GCD changes, but I hadn't been using it until fairly recently. During Sunwell (Brutallus in particular) on the PTR, all our paladins had the same assignment (spam the tank), and we experimented with haste gear. Obviously the math shows the HPS increase, but in practical testing, the stability of tank health increased considerably when we all dumped the mp/5 gear for as much haste as possible. It also accounted for significant gaps in healing done for which of us was wearing haste gear and who wasn't.

The only fights in BT where I feel I need to pot, barring some exceptional circumstance, are Council and sometimes Illidan. On Bloodboil I pretty much always have a shadow priest so it really isn't necessary, even with HL11 spam on the fel rage target, just due to gains from spiritual attunement. I also have an alchemist's stone if I know I'm going to be chain potting on a fight, but I haven't used that in months.

My project before the reset Tuesday is to resocket all my yellow slots with +haste and get some of the crafted/badge haste gear, and give that a whirl for our next clear. I'm expecting some pretty nice results.