Nubs

As far as Insightful Earthstorm Diamond is concerned it really varies on the paladins healing rotation, I personally use a very high mixed blend of FoL and HL depending on what the fight demands.

A recent parse Wow Web Stats
shows that with using this meta I received a total of 29,100 mana over the course of 3Hours12Mins.

I would think with that kind of mana restore it is definitely worth using.

 

Nubs

Right now I would say your spell critical is too low to really utilize spell haste. You would really end up having no regen and go oom in no time.

If your having issues in heroics take along a shadow priest, back when I was heroic grinding a shadow priest made the world of difference since we don't have an aoe heal their VE would do enough of a job for me to get around to everyone then back to the tank. Also watch the ranks of FoL and HL you are using, you may just need to cast a higher rank. Obviously FoL spamming through a heroic won't work the same as in a T4/T5 raid.

 

Palados

Throw FoL 6 out of your bars/keybinds. I have never seen the situation (not considering complete OOM) where FoL 6 is worth using. Add HL11 to your spell rotations. Sometimes even HL10 isn't enough when tank takes a spike.

As for stream healing - it depends on encounter. For you (assuming it's heroic, t4 and early T5) it should be like this:

1. chaincast FoL
2. if no spikes happen cast HL 4 or 9-10 (depends on how much mana you have) each 10-12 sec to keep lights grace up
3. if tank gets spike - cast HL10-11 till he is topped and then back to steps 1-2.

You can not move completely out of reactive healing, since it either mean (a) tanks gets no spikes and you are lucky or (b) your streamhealing covers spikes fine and in this case overhealing will be insane as well as keeping streamhealing on this lvl will mean you overgear encounter by several tiers.


Bear in mind, that CHOOSING what big spell to use while streamhealing usually IS reactive. Like I wrote before, you usually use 'low mana spell' (FoL7, HL4-7) to streamheal and cast higher ranks when tank got a spike or is going to take it (timed boss abilities). Exact balance depends on fight, but usually after knowing the encounter you know what spell you should choose as 'low mana spell' to both provide good enough streamhealing and have enough mana to cover spikes with HL10-11. Till mid/late T6 you should use FoL as 'stream' spell (with rare HL4-7 to keep grace up).

Remember, that we are not DPS casters who could just macro cast sequence and press one button and be fine. In all realistic situations we should be able to react on tank HP loss. Thats why there is not a single fight where you could say : OK I will cast this and only this spell rank, smash the button and it will work out (unless you could spam HL11 whole fight ).

 

Dragonwing

Although your right, I find it odd that this is not common practice. Most people generally carry DF, DI, HS, and HL 10-11 and max FoL. Quite honestly, especially in fights like Kalecgos, a full time healer should have high and low level healing spells on their bars, a low level HL (5-7 i'd say) , high rank FoL, HL 10-11, and be prepared to alternate healing spells as the counter progresses. it's important you understand mechanics of an encounter for a tank as well, as doing this homework can make healing more predictable.

I.E. kalecgos himself hits about as hard as the demon in the inner realm; however, the demon will stun the tank, which prevents you from avoiding or blocking attacks- thus heavy spike damage. So it's important to be prepared to heavy stream inside the portal, and to rotate Fol/low HoL on the Kalecgos tank.

Just do your homework and keep a decent variety of healing spells prepared, otherwise you'll find yourself a lot less inclined to be prepared for an encounter that requires intelligent reaction.

 

Malleus

That ICD may need reappraising. I just upgraded my helm (more on this in a minute), and as is my wont I was spamming BOL-backed HL11s on myself to see where my new average heal level was. When I ran dry, rather than drink I swapped in my full regen gear and Libram of Mending and started using HL1 every 30 seconds or so to keep the 22 MP5 buff up. While doing this, I had my IED proc on consecutive casts - that is to say, it procced twice within the space of 30 seconds.


OK, the helm thing. Naj'entus dropped [Guise of the Tidal Lurker]. I was wearing [Helmet of the Steadfast Champion]. Was I right to bid on it? I'm sure I was, as the Guise is a clear upgrade in every department other than armour, which shouldn't often be relevant for me. Also, the gains over the Helmet are worth as much as my bracers, which means I can wear an extra piece of SR kit when we go after Kaz'rogal on Tuesday.

 

Palados

Unless you overbid a druid who would have bigger upgrade from it, you are right bidding on it. Helm is not bad. And it is especially good for prot/retri paladins who are forced to heal on some encounter since for them mp5 > crit any time. Basically, it's not very 'tree-druid' item. It's more off-spec helm /shaman/pala helm, full resto druids aim for high spi if possible. mp5 is still good, but between two equivalent items they would choose spirit one rather than mp5 one.

 

Malleus

That's the thing. I overbid a Druid who was using [Cowl of Nature's Breath], and while I think the loss of 34 Spirit negates all the MP5 (as well as a raidwide loss of 9 +heal on his group), I'm not sure that my gaining 12 Int, 50 +heal and 5 MP5 was at this point a larger upgrade for me than it was for him.

What I do know is that since the change to Spirit-based regen, you may as well call the Guise the Chamois Leather. There's no wasted points on it at all for Shamans, or for Healadins building a high-regen set.

 

• frmorrison

Generally it is nice to pass when a healing class wants its armor type.

In the end it doesn't matter much, the non-ideal Tree druid item will drop again.

 

Palados

Would agree with you, though different raid groups have different rules. Many guilds allow all physDPS classes to bid Illidan leather helm on par with rogues. Would I (as raid leader) ask paladin to pass it for druid? Yes. Would I force him to pass? No. DKP is DKP, for both it's a big upgrade, no points wasted on non-pala stat aka spirit.

 

Bhall

Hi,

lately i was wondering what is the best of holy paladin. Should i rather stack mp5 and crit and use mostly rank 11 HL and rank 9 HL sometimes. Or try to stack more haste and use lower rank.

Example:

Now i use rank 11 HL and i have x HPS. How much haste would i need to have the same HPS with rank 10 HL. How much mana would i gain by using lower rank and how much mana would i loose by casting faster and sacrificing some mp5 or crit for spellhaste.

My stats are atm 2450 + healing, 181 mp5 unbuffed, 25,6% holy crit, 131 haste raiting, 10500 mana unbuffed.

Lets value stats by epic gems. 4mp5 = 10 haste raiting = 10 spell crit raiting = 22 healing

If i would sacrfice stats and in the end i would have 2350 healing, 150 mp5 unbuffed, 25% holy crit and 270 spell haste.

how much would my healing output and mana efficiency change?

Anyone did some research regarding this? Ofc it doesnt have to be exactly like this. I am just giving these stats as an example.

 

Palados

This is the question, that Galg wanted to investigate before he disapeared.

Some rought calculations: I take into account your current +heal and crit and assume that haste is 0 for simplicity. Spreadsheet shows that your HL11 and 10 give 9.95 and 10.6 HP per mana respectively, while costing 840 and 710 mana without Lurker Libram. In order for HL10 to catch HL11 in HPS with those stats you need around 174 haste rating using the formula:

haste_needed = 15.7 * [100*(840*9.95 / 710*10.6 - 1)]


And it will save you about x*52 mana, where x is number of HL10 casts. If you cast HL10 each 2.5 sec (24 casts per minute), it will save you 1248 mana per minute. To save that much mana from HL11 crits for example (using same casting rate) you would need about 9.7% more crit, that is 214 spell crit rating.

P. S. Apparently I thought that 25% is your non holy crit. But even reducing crit by 5% won't influence the basic result - for very good geared paladin, going haste will be more efficient (mana wise) than going crit due to downranking. I will try to derive general formulas and check where is the treshold at which haste becomes better, also taking into account that extra crit increase HL11 hps as well.

 

Palados

Now more precise analysis.

Assumptions: BoL active, no librams (to take them into account one has to do a spreadsheet), holy build (thus extra 5% holy crit, 12% healed, illlumination). I will take into account T6 bonus, since there is no need for haste on sub-mid T6 lvl.

Let us call the amounts of buffed +healing H, non holy spell crit - C (25% => C=0.25), haste rating - Hs. I assume than you spam HL11 each 2 sec (a bit unrealistic and shifts the result into higher haste area, but we should start somewhere and it will give us some estimate). I will try to answer the question, how much +haste you will need to let HL10 catch HL11 in HPS, assuming HL11 gets crit, equivalent to haste for HL10. And how much mana you would save in both cases. The answer x (in rating units) can be found by solving an equation:

(1+(x+Hs)/1570)(1840+580+H*5/7)*1.12*(1+0.5*(C+0.11))=(1+Hs/1570)(2321+580+H*5/7)*1.12*(1+0.5*(C+0.11+x/2210))

that will give us the following monstrous formula:

x = [481*(1.055+0.5*C)*(1+Hs/1570)]/[(2380+H*5/7)*(1.055+0.5*C)/1570-(1+Hs/1570)*(2861+H*6/7)/4420]

Example: for 2450 +healing, 20% spell crit and 131 haste rating variable x=330. That means that adding 330 haste rating to your current HL10 you would get the same HPS by non stop spam as by adding 330 crit rating to your current HL11. In the first case you would save 265 mana per 5 sec (crit taken into account already), in the second case you would save you 188 mp5.

So, going for haste instead of crit you both save more mana due to downranking and get additional benefit of increasing max possible HPS (HL11 spam). (a bit counterintuitive result, isn't it?)

I have to mention that this result is valid for a good geared paladin. For paladin with low values of H, Hs, C going for crit could be a better option. I will check if it's true, though I would need to use some mathematic software I guess.

 

Malleus

I'm at what you might call those lower levels, and even as small a change as swapping out [Man'kin'do's Belt] for [Girdle of Many Blessings] made a visible difference to my longevity (this being pre-2.4 badge items, BTW, not my current gear).

Though I am in no position to craft it out precisely, I suspect that there are minimum required levels of Holy crit and MP5 - probably around 25% crit and 130 MP5 - and until those levels are attained, the perfect amount of haste is zero because you don't have the regen to support it.

 

Palados

You have to take into account, that haste allows you to downrank more. Of course if you keep the same spell ratios you would go oom faster. However i agree, without having enough mp5 and crit haste is not worth gathering. As well as it isn't really worth having preT6, save some extreme scenarios.

 

nilum87

Is spell haste really not worth getting preT6? I'm currently in T4 + Badge gear + 1 piece of ZA gear (see armory) and I push (with my standard 10man raid buffs) 1984 healing, 173mp5, 22.9 holy crit, and a meager 14 haste.

According to some gear swapping I've been thinking about, by bumping my haste to about 97 (easy by swapping some 8 haste gems in and bringing in the pvp healing/haste neck and pally haste badge gloves), bringing FoL down to 1.407 sec and reducing my healing, mp5, and crit by a smidge, I can increase my HPS by ~50-100, depending on my FoL and HL percentages (I don't have the gear yet and haven't been able to test my theories, which makes me a sad panda).

Can anyone else comment on the viability of bringing ~100 haste into a gear set of the T4/T5 level?
Partially related, I almost never have a Shadow Priest or Shaman, so would mana become an issue in T5 lvl raids, 10 or 25 man.

 

• frmorrison

You don't need haste before Sunwell, since there isn't such massive damage going around before then that can't be handled easier by a Chain Heal.

However, going for more haste is an option pre-Sunwell, just it is not a common choice. Since the faster cast isn't needed yet, you will get better returns stacking healing, crit, and mp5.

 

Malleus

I very much doubt that. It would require you to currently be doing 1100-1150 HPS via chaincasting. Paladins with 300 more +heal than you have and comparative regen struggle to achieve that without going OOM.

Regarding the viability of haste: it's only of use when you're chaincasting to the limit of what your regen can stand or need to compensate for large spikes while moving. There are no fights in pre-T6 content that fit the second criterion (except maybe Zul'jin phase 3), and at your gear level it's easier and cheaper to increase your regen or +heal than it is to increase haste.

 

nilum87

Thanks for the advice.
If I happen to get my haste up to ~100 via gear no one wants (our guild lacks a Resto Shammy) I'll see how it compares to my guild's other Holy Paladin and report back.

Edit:
FYI. I found, over in the Resto Shaman forum, this little snippet.

 

dustbin187

palados, did you account for the lower amount of mana restored from illumination? it's true that you can achieve equal healing per second for less mana, but hl11 costs 130 more mana than 10 -- 78 more mana returned per crit. if you have 25% crit and cast 20 hls in 1 minute, that's 312 mana saved (assuming everything works as one might think), and obviously the more crit one has the "less efficient" downranking becomes

 

Acryon

Not sure if this is already posted anywhere, but I found this addon tonight and have found myself pretty happy with it.
Bang! Libram Swap
What it does is you set it so it will replace [Libram of Mending] with [Libram of Souls Redeemed] or others once you receive the buff from Mending. Then it switches back to it as the buff nears it's end(you can set the amount of seconds of remaining duration before switching). So essentially, (assuming you're casting Holy Light at least once every thirty seconds, which I hope you are) you are gaining a static 22mp5 without losing the hps you could have gained from RoSD by leaving Mending equipped the whole time. Now obviously this can also be done manually, but this mod saves you the clicks, because we're busy as it is.

 

Malleus

Spending 2600 mana to save 312 does not compute.

EDIT: the return per mana point spent for HL11 and HL10 are identical. Therefore, if you can achieve the HPS required by spending less mana, it will always be better than trying to benefit more from crits.

 

Palados

Yes, if you look carefull into that huge formula, you will see that I have taken into account illumination for both HL11 and HL 10 (thats why I wrote that crit was taken into account in that 265 mp5). And what Malleus wrote:

It's better to think about crit restoring mana per mana point than restoring mana per cast. Since in reality all what we need - to keep some HPS and not to cast certain number of casts per minute. And the most efficient way to achieve it is to use lower rank spells with better hp/mana ratio (assuming that casting those downranked spells is enough to keep desired HPS).


Look at your example. If you want HL10 to match HL11 healing done you would have to cast a few more HL10. Even if each HL10 crit restores less mana, you would have more HL10 crits. If you do carefull calculations, you will see that average amount of mana restored per minute would be the same 312 mana. Now you could say, if we cast more HL10 than HL11 than do we save the mana actually? The answer is yes, since HL10 hp/mana is better than HL11 and thus for same HPS you would spend less mana. And the more +healing you have, the better hp/mana HL10 has. Since its mana price is always the same and % difference between healing done for HL10 and HL11 is decreasing.

 

Timi

I have asked a few people on what to do as for gemming for end-game raiding. In my yellow slots A few people have told me 10 spell crit, but then last night me and a friend got talkin about 10 spell haste in the yellow slot instead of 10 spell crit.

What are some of your thoughts on this?

 

Graveluth

Hello.

My guild is currently finishing up SSC and TK (only Vashj and Kael'thas to kill) and progressing in Mount Hyjal (first three bosses down). We will probably venture in Black Temple soon. From what I've read, spell haste is the way to go but that requires good gear, which I don't have yet, so that's one less headache...but I still have to pick between +healing, +mp5, +spell crit...

My current gear can be seen here.

I'm currently with 1958 healing, 72 mp5 and 16,35% spell crit, without taking into consideration the 5% bonus to holy spells , 2% bonus to flash of light from my arena gloves and 6% bonus to holy light from talent.


So the main question is:

Can any of you advise me on which route to follow regarding which stats should I aim to improve first?


I've read somewhere that we should have 2200 healing, 100 mp5 and 25% spell crit (no idea if that's without counting the % bonus from spells or not). Is this true?

 

Malleus

Prior to Sunwell you should have a minimum of 100 MP5, around 25% Holy crit, and as much +heal as you can load on. To start BT, I wouldn't want to have less than 2000 unbuffed. Naj'entus is very healing-intensive.

The fastest gear upgrades I see for you are the badge boots and 60-badge ring (Anveena's Touch). Combined with the correct gems, they'll see you close to 90 MP5 and over the 2k mark in +heal.