Hi guys,

I have been reading EJ for a few months and I finally have something to post. I've been looking for some basic stats for the EP system and even an explanation. Since I never found one I just worked it out myself. I have come up with a Loot Rank sheet for a Holy Paladin. I'm only up to about 1850 heals and still in t4/BoJ gear and not to sure how the gear progresses after that. Can some of the experts here take a gander and tell me if it scales properly through t5-t6+ gear? Thanks in advance.

Paladin, Holy

The only problem with hast is the mana efficiency...

Hast can be the most powerful stats for pally, but its restricted by the fact that it makes you alot less efficient.

1 point of hast has a potencial HP/S ~4-5 times bigger them 1 point of healing.

But when you increase Heal, you increase your HP/S without any extra mana, but when you use hast, and gain lets say, 1% HP/S. You in fact will cast 1% more Heals in the same time. So you will use 1% more mana.

It's a strong stats for HP/S but it reduce your efficiency in the same porcentage it increases your HP/S.

So, what need to be discussed, is how much efficiency we need?

Haste doesn't make you less efficient. It actually increases your efficiency (by making FoLs faster and thus requiring slightly less HLs), but the increase to efficiency from haste is significantly lower than the increase to efficiency from +healing/mp5 and even somewhat lower than crit.


As for WWS and meters, I've already said many times those differences are not going to be shown on meters. What you'll see on meters is who is a better healer, who is more focused, who is using significantly more consumeables (on difficult fights where they actually matter), who got lucky and who has a better healing-meter-topping assignment (or ignores his assignment in order to top meters). These factors are much more significant for your WWS/meter results than how you gear, and that's why you're never going to be able to prove any theorycrafting with WWS/meters.

Using WWS/meters to compare who is gearing himself better is like comparing the speed and fuel efficiency of cars by having 2 different drivers drive them on different hours from point A to point B in town (preferably one with high traffic and lots of traffic lights to make things worse) and see who took less time to get through the trip and who burned less fuel. While the car with better speed/fuel efficiency will be more likely to get through the trip faster/burning less fuel, you're not going to actually be able to measure it with that kind of experiment no matter how many times you repeat it.


Same goes for running heroics (especially new ones) - if your group plays perfectly healing is so much more extremely incredibly easier than if they suck. Even heroic mech can be challenging to heal if you pick your party members "correctly".

Hast makes you less efficient...

If u use a Hast gem, your not using a 22 heal or a 10crit one. If u use a hast equip, you are not using that other one with better crit/mp5/heal.

Hast will increase your HPS, but you will need to spend the exactly same % you gain on HP/S, of Mana/Sec.
Hast will not directly decrease your efficiency, but if you actually use the hast to heal more times in a determineted space of time, so generating a increase of HP/S because of the Hast, you will need to use the same % of extra mana.
If u stack heal or crit, you will increase your HPS without the need to spend more mana them you do right now.]

Ex: Your HL costs 840 Mana, you have 0 Crit, and 0 Mp5 (Just to make the math easy here) You have LG up so its 2sec cast time.
Lets say your average HL hits for 4000, generating a 2000 HP/S.
If you stack 10%(151) of Hast, you will end with HL's that Hits for 4000, and now generates a 2200 HP/S
But before the Hast, you was using 840 / 2 Sec = 420 Mana/Sec
Now you are expending 840 / 1.8sec = 466 Mana / Sec

Lets say now that you increase your Heal, not your Hast.
If you stack 600 of Heal, you will end with Hl's that Hits for 4438, and now generates a 2219 HP/S
Now your expending the same 840 / 2sec = 420 Mana / Sec


The amount healer / point of mana expended will not decrese, i know. But its a mistake consider that hast didnt affect your efficiency just cause of this. The real problem is that hast dont make your heals bigger, it makes them faster, so you will need to cast more heals, and expand more mana.
If you can magically add X of hast to your gear without loosing anything, it would be a great improvement, but you cant. You will loose something... Heal, int, or Crit.


Heal vs Hast = Hast gives you near 4x the HP/S of +Healing, but +Healing will make your total healed by your mana pool increase, and hast not. If you go OOM, hast failed to you.

Crit vs Hast = Hast gives you about 2.5x the HP/S of Spell Crit, but Spell Crit will make your heals ~0,027% more mana efficient, and the extra heal from crits will increase your total healed / Mana pool, and hast will not.


In my opnion hast is a stats that you only need to look for if you never go OOM.
Its the best stat to stack if you can spend that amout of Mana/Sec, but if your party composition isnt favorable, like some pallys that play without SP or Shaman, on Tanker party, i dont think hast will be as viable as +Heal/Mp5.

Hast is a stats that you should look for if you end every fight with alot of mana. It will burn your mana, but with a great reward of huge HPS increase.

Of course if you lose an efficiency stat for haste you lose efficiency if itemization points spent for both stats are equal... However it's much easier to compare how much you gain with one stat using your current stats as a baseline and then how much you gain with each of the other stats, and find some equivalence point between them.

Just saying haste for itself reducing your efficiency is misleading, as it actually increases efficiency but by a lot less than +healing does, so if you give up equal itemization of +healing for haste you'll lose efficiency of course.

To calrify why it's easier to just look at gains and then compare the different gains of different amounts of different stats, try answering "what gives more efficiency, 30 haste rating or 10 healing?" or "what gives more HPS, 30 healing or 20 haste?" and "is the loss of efficiency by switching 30 healing to 20 haste rating worth the HPS gain?"
All of these are much easier to answer if you figure out the efficiency gains of each stat and the HPS gains of each stat compared to your current stats.

Hum, Mirk. Actually it increase efficiency in gal meaning and decrease in your meaning. You just use the same word with a tad different meaning. That was and is the reason for misunderstanding between me and gal too.

Gal, my point is somewhat close to some of the latest posts. Theorycrafting works fine, but as soon as you enter T6 (and tendency seems to be even bigger in sunwell), you realise that you need actually more HPS and that FoL simply can't cut it. Your calculation don't take into account the tendency of underhealing encounters by bringing more DPS that is more and more popular in T6 (we almost halved number of healers for Najentus and in a month will reduce the number of teron healers by 50% from initial value). Idea is that by shortening fight duration with more DPS you need less time to heal and thus can (and should) use powerfull heals instead of FoL spam.

Sunwell bosses are DESIGNED in a way, that you need really insane HPS to make things rolling. Look at WWS, many paladins in Brutalus fight EXCLUSIVELY HL. Just because FoL won't cunt it. Because you would better bring other healer instead of FoL paladin. Raiding environment changes. Believe me, almost no hastedins use haste to increase effectiveness by casting more FoL and less HL. They do it because they really need increase in HPS/bursts.

Your main conception used in your calculations (I guess) is that paladin should spam FoL with HL when you have to cover some burst. As soon as this conception won't work (due to very low number of healers or very intensive damage on raid) your calculations are misleading. Imagine absurd situation where raid constantly takes 6k damage each 5sec and tank gets 10k hits each 4 sec on top of that. Can you imagine any assignement for FoL paladin (aka assignement where he would be better than other healing classes)? I can't. While assigning him on tank and letting cast big HL each 4 sec would work perfectly (plus about 0% overhealing from crits in this case).

You said that keeping casting HL more or less regularly is a no go in real raid environment. Well, Bruallus WWS shows that many paladins cast HL (9-11) each 3.5-4.5 sec for 6 min non stop.

In fact, the concept stays true as long as you can cast any number bigger than 0 of FoLs. More HPS will slightly increase that number of times where FoL is enough HPS and thus save you mana, even if it just means you cast 2 FoLs in a fight instead of 1 FoL you still gained efficiency (assuming you actually needed every drop of efficiency). Even if you never ever cast a single FoL, you can say the exact same thing about using more lower rank HLs and less higher rank HLs, using the same kind of math (although will give different HPS->efficiency gains due to the lower efficiency of HL).

Of course you don't gear haste for efficiency, why would you? Healing/mp5 do it so much better. I was just pointing out the efficiency benefit of haste is not zero nor negative, and thus an item with 20 healing and 10 haste provides clearly higher efficiency than an item with just 20 healing, on top of the significantly higher HPS it gives which is the main benefit of haste.

My way of calculating doesn't assume anything you're claiming it does. Only thing you have to assume in advance is the most efficient heal you're willing to use (generally FoL but doesn't have to be if you insist not to) and what your approximate mana distribution on the different spells is like. I don't see how your definition of "higher requirements of sunwell fights", even if true, breaks any of the theorycrafting.

To top it off I'd love to see a WWS of a fight where you casted 0 FoLs, lasted through the fight, spent the majority of the time casting AND could not cast a single FoL without risking a death. Especially what the <time spent casting>/<fight duration> looks like (and if WWS would've supported it (did 2.4 do anything to help?) to see how much time you spend between your "spammed" HL ranks - but WWS doesn't show ranks of heals used).

On Patchwek style fights ( Static fights with lots of HPS required for safety ) it's easy to see how much u need and how many healers u need to provide it. Haste increses HPS but decreases spam longevity, modeling this relationship for generic fights doesn't sound very usefull... For a particular situation it's very easy and usefull.

On the whole I'd say u need/should have some haste and some regen gear to swap around from boss to boss. Hybrid Bags anyone?

"Spam longevity" is meaningless. The easy example to show why it doesn't tell you anything is that I could show you a gear and heal rank spam where adding 1 mp5 would multiply your longevity by a factor of infinity. Obviously 1 mp5 is never worth infinity, and since there is 1 example that the "spam longevity" is supposed to be relevent to that is obviously incorrect, the whole concept is incorrect as well. That is, no matter what spell you're using, knowing that adding X of a stat multiplies your longevity by Y doesn't really tell you anything useful at all. Another proof is simply saying that healing twice as fast with same mana efficiency is not worse than healing normally, while your "Spam longevity" would be 1/2.

Casting a HL every 3.5s is not even close to spending most of the time casting. That's 43% of the time doing absolutly nothgin. While I can't really tell how much of that 43% you really couldn't be doing anything and how much you were simply not healing as good as you could be, I really doubt during 43% of the fight the tank is sitting at 100% HP.

Keep in mind while FoL spamming is about 1/2 the HPS of HL spamming, so spamming FoL for the full duration alone would probably get not much worse results. And since you'd have so much mana left at the end, during bursts swapping that FoL to HL to the point where you still use all your mana, and voilla you did more healing and spent much more of the fight actually doing something. While you can say that you only need big heals as he either takes damage or doesn't take damage at all, there is no way to prove no matter how much you try and WWS it that cast-canceling HL will save the tank better than always having a FoL incoming with LG up to react with HL after a big hit.

This also has nothing to do with how I calculate itemization as you could use the same calculation with any healing style, you just put in different numbers and get different results (and not much different at all especially if you assume that you're not completely unable to cast FoL).

I also don't see why you're letting a feral tank on a fight when your "burst" includes a 10k fire damage hit even if the boss can't crush. There had been enough discussion in other threads saying it's debateable enough on bosses that deal 0 elemental damage and never crush wether you should tank with a feral or not, so a boss with extreme elemental damage burst should obviously never be tanked by a bear. Not to mention bear tanking has other costs on top of the "who is a better tank" question, like keeping TC (and possibly demo depending who's job it is to keep it up in your raid) becoming the duty of another warrior, and if you don't sit out your prot warrior you're subbing a cat DPS with a prot DPS which is very bad.

Well, isn't working for Brutalus. Basically, this boss can, in principle, twoshot tank. Therefore you do what I think those palas did - cast HL about as fast as boss hits. And let them land. Thats it, no stopcasting, no FoL/reactiveHL combo. As soon as your mana allows to cast HL a LOT (remember, that you won't fight brutalus more than 6min and 20sec or so no matter what) you do it. Mana of those guys allowed them, therefore they did it. You should agree, that as soon as you are definitely sure that effectiveness won't be an issue, you should maximize your HPS aka burn all your mana in that 6min to make a kill safer.

Pala job is to make spikes smoother and let big heals land/hots tick. We did it with FoL earlier. But if we have to do it with HL - I don't see why we shouldn't. We never were pro in reactive healing. We have chanse to be with a lot of haste, but we will see how it will work out.

Hm, you assumed what gemming, when you choose between glimmering and lightbringer shoulders? I woulnd't go for Glimmering over Lightbringer in overall set tbh, but it's just me. I would use sunwell crafted chest over t6 one (it owns by all parameters) and use T6 shoulders in almost every sets you listed as 4th T6.