I didn't said they need it . I said that some extra haste would be good to have in such particular and similar situations. Also when we moved from 11 to 9 healing twins (reverse order, brought 10 healers and 1 DCed), some of the shamans told me that haste was really good to have. One of them has around 250ish (and SP ofc ). I guess if he would invest that item budged in mp5 and some extra +heal he would loose in performance by quite a bit.
It is quite subjective, but many people find haste a nice stat. And saying what's really better, is like holy war between Windows and Linux apologets. You can calculate how big HPS increase haste gives vs crit and healing, you can do some not very relevant in real raiding environment efficiency calcualtions, you can find wws that support almost any stat as the one to save from wipe. But in the end of the day it all comes down to what people feel they would like to have taking into account current gear and support they receive. I think no one will doubt, that SK gaming paladin who had 2 SP and 1 resto shammy in one of their first Brutallus kills would benefit from haste more than any other stat by a big margin for example.
I think no one will doubt, that SK gaming paladin who had 2 SP and 1 resto shammy in one of their first Brutallus kills would benefit from haste more than any other stat by a big margin for example.
Well, yes - I imagine that if I had 1200 MP5, I could use haste rather effectively too. But you can't discuss stat efficacy in terms of kitty-corner cases like Brut with two S-Priests.
I think we're running around in circles on the issue now, to be honest. Unless and until someone can provide actual data for comparison, there is little left to say.
I actually run without BoL on most tank/spankers, opting for improved might in its stead (kings is always up). It's a non-trivial threat increase when you run the rawr models, so it seems worth it. Healing without BoL is definitely noticeable though, and I would heavily suggest including it if you are ever having tank deaths due to lack of healing throughput on your own personal part. On Brut, usually our rare tank deaths are positional crisscrosses with healers moving in/out of burn. That being said, BoL is probably worth more than BoM on this fight, as threat is largely not an issue when the situation involves taunt exchanges using warrior/feral.
On fights like Felmyst and Kalecgos, however, I typically run without BoL as threat is something of a major consideration on Felmyst, and the taunt in the ghost realm can be a bit touch-and-go on Kalecgos. Although I have made a mental note in the future, to switch to re-bless BoL if I find myself topside and about to walk into an enraged Kalecgos.
Don't you guys run a ret paladin for imp bom? If I'm healing a tank I really try to make sure light is on there. The kara libram is quite powerful with it.
For what it's worth, I'm running with a haste set these days (at 324 I think) and it's quite nice. You can run the mail legs and cloth shoulders from sunwell, craft the crit gloves, and have a really nice haste set without sacrificing much more than a little crit. Given how poorly itemized the plate equivalents in those slots are, I would recommend at least trying it out, drops permitting. Spamming HL9 at near FOL speed is pretty badass.
What it comes right down to, is you will have more than enough healing and regen once you start picking up your first sunwell peices, so you choose between crit and haste. I was gemmed purely +22 heal before switching to all haste and wouldn't even consider going back. I'm not really in a position to stack the hell out of crit, but it would be interesting to play with the reverse -- all the +crit plate and gemmed crit.
I think we're running around in circles on the issue now, to be honest. Unless and until someone can provide actual data for comparison, there is little left to say.
What data do you want exactly? You are good enough to not simply ask 'What stat is better?', so probably you could formulate the question? There was only 1 real question so far - what haste do you need for HL10 to match HL11 in HPS (while for HL11 case same budget goes to crit) and how much mana you save in both cases. I answered, how much haste you need. And it turned out that for stats posted you get more mana from going haste and switching to HL10 than going crit and doing HL11.
Describe situation you are interested in and I will try to calculate what you want :P.
It's not a requirement. It's quite viable for one Holy Paladin to spec 41/11/5 (+4) for Imp Wisdom and Imp Might. He can then take care of both buffs, as most classes don't have a use for mana regen and AP. Kitty DPS Druids would like both, but losing Wisdom is only a difference of one extra Mangle every 90 seconds or so; Prot Palis get sufficient mana regen from SA; and I'm told Enhance Shammies prefer Might to Wisdom. Only Retridins strictly need both Might and Wisdom, but if you have a Retridin then of course the problem is already solved.
(As an aside: my guild has four raid quality Paladin tanks, so we're rarely without someone who can do BoK. I've vaguely considered respeccing 42/8/11 for Precision, Imp BOM and SoC so I can maybe do a little semi-effective soloing.)
There was only 1 real question so far - what haste do you need for HL10 to match HL11 in HPS (while for HL11 case same budget goes to crit) and how much mana you save in both cases.
I have to say I don't see the point of this question. It doesn't seem to have any bearing on in game playstyles/mechanics/strategies. Does this mean we can spam HL10 constantly instead of some other spell? Or does it mean that paladins now need to use ranks 9/10/11 (and a low rank for LG) of HL? Honestly I think that complicates things too much where they shouldn't be.
Hello guys, I don't play a paladin but told my fellow guildy I'd try and find out this information for them since they asked me and weren't sure.
For a raiding paladin in MH/BT gear, how is [url=http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32067]Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] versus Elixir of Major Mageblood, now as far as I know the spirit from the former is wasted, so it's basically 30 intellect versus 16MP5, I think the latter is better but was wanting to check what you guys use.
I use Adepts and Draenic Wisdom on content where I know I'll get half an hour minimum from it. The additional 1.5% crit makes up for the loss of MP5.
On progression content, IMO you should always use Flasks over Elixirs anyway. I use Flask of Mighty Resto, so you can take that as a partial nod towards Mageblood if you want to stay with Elixirs.
In either event, the rules are not set in stone. If you don't have enough regen from other sources, obviously you go with Mageblood. If you do, you may as well get the extra 500 mana and 0.5% crit.
We're typically running a 2xPaladin configurations these days - we consistently use Ret on Brut (we just exchange mights/kings assignments on tanks), but beyond that our best ret paladin happens to be our best prot paladin, so choices are limited on some of the other fights.
Although in hindsight, our warrior tanks are typically getting an enhancement shaman, so I'll probably just drop might all together next week and see how it pans out, with the exception of our feral tank on Felmyst.
Originally Posted by Malleus
On progression content, IMO you should always use Flasks over Elixirs anyway. I use Flask of Mighty Resto, so you can take that as a partial nod towards Mageblood if you want to stay with Elixirs.
In either event, the rules are not set in stone. If you don't have enough regen from other sources, obviously you go with Mageblood. If you do, you may as well get the extra 500 mana and 0.5% crit.
Mp5 is an OK choice if you're leaning heavily on FoL spam, otherwise go with the extra crit from int consumables. On the subject of flasks/elixirs - the mighty restoration flask follows the same rules. It's a a pretty subpar flask if you use any concentration of holy light (which is pretty much anyone in Sunwell). That being said, I'd suggest using [Flask of Distilled Wisdom] if you're looking for economic solutions on progression content.
I recently made a post on the wow forums with my thoughts on mp5/spell crit, and I've just been sidetracked by people with anecdotal comments. I'd like to run this by you guys and see what you think:
The gist of it:
The first is that the definition of "mana pool" has to be changed to account for your mp5 regen. obv. if spell crit was simply worth 10k*.6*spell crit rate, no one would get it.
the other thing is that spell crit "stacks" with itself. For example, if someone had 0mp5 and 100% spell crit, they wouldn't just be able to stay in a fight 60% longer than someone with 0mp5 and 0% spell crit. They'd get 60% of their mana back, then 60% of that, 60% of that, etc. (i know that's not how illumination it works in a... real-time fashion"
so if you put them together, you get this formula for the worth of your spell crit in mana:
(mana pool + (mp5 regen * time of fight)) / (1 - (.6*spell crit)) "
and so the comparison model is more like:
mp5 * time of fight vs. (mana pool + (mp5 regen * time of fight)) / (1 - (.6*spell crit))
Using this model, 1 mp5 ~ 2 spell crit (something that is roughly right) makes more sense.
"mana pool" is defined as base pool + any mana pots you use
GETTING "UNLUCKY" WITH CRITS
blah blah blah bernoulli/binomial distros...
100 heals, 50 crits on 30% heals? Binomial Calculator
(plug in p = 0.3, n = 100, probability of successes > 50)
probability is .00001. So link me your WWS, and I will concede that you had 1 in 100,000 luck.
HIGHER CRIT RATE = MORE RELIABLE
variance is n*p*(1-p) for our distribution. If you don't understand that, how about comparing these two statements:
It is easy to get more than 8 crits out of 100 when I have 10% crit.
It is easy to get more than 16 crits out of 100 when I have 20% crit.
Compare the two using the demo I linked. You will find that with 20% crit, you get over 80% of your expected crits 87% of the time vs. with 10% crit you will only get it 79% of the time."
Mp5 is an OK choice if you're leaning heavily on FoL spam, otherwise go with the extra crit from int consumables.
That's interesting; I myself was advised to go the opposite route. If you have a decent amount of regen extra MP5 isn't needed when you're Flash spamming, so you may as well have the extra crit to up your HPS a little more. OTOH, in any fight that lasts longer than 3m30s you'll get as much or more mana back from the MP5 than you started with for having 71 more Int.
My gearing has borne this out. I have a drop-in kit for extra regen that I use on fights where I need to throw around the HLs but don't get much back from SA (MT healing on Morogrim/FLK pre-Shaman kill is a good example). It drops around 0.5% crit on my regular setup for an additional 25 MP5 - almost the same changes you'd see choosing FoMR over FoDW - plus around 100 +heal. Despite having to work a little harder with my mana and having less of it, the regen set works for me on fights where I'd go OOM using my standard gear.
@dslfreak - that's a very long winded way to say that the higher your crit%, the more crits you'll get. Also, your conclusion does not account for everything averaging out over the infinitely (or transfinitely) extended series.
MP5 vs CRIT was already discussed and those formulas written. But this statement is wrong:
Using this model, 1 mp5 ~ 2 spell crit (something that is roughly right) makes more sense.
It really depends. Even for the same fight you could have different support. On Brutallus, pala in MT group has about 30-35k mana to use during the fight, while in really supportive group it could be as much as 65k mana (values before taking crit into account). Thus value of crit differs in about 2 times. In other fights it could be completely different as well.
About higher crit rate being more reliable - it wasn't presented here and I agree that it's partailly true. Why partially - it depends on the number of casts too. (Try 0.4, at least 40 crits in 100 casts and at least 400 crits in 1000 casts -the numbers will differ slightly). But in general for binomial stuff (like crit) the more probability is, the better you will get the expected rate. That is a fact. But also a fact is that for low probability chanses to get substantially less 'success' tries are as big as chanses to get substantially more (for 3% crit, chanses to get 0 crits in 100 casts are 5%, but chanses to get 6 crits are around 5% too). So increasing crit % will make your crit rate more 'reliable' in a sence that probability to deviate from averaged value is smaller.
Though usually absolute value of the crit per se is decreasing with the amount of crit you have.
That's interesting; I myself was advised to go the opposite route. If you have a decent amount of regen extra MP5 isn't needed when you're Flash spamming, so you may as well have the extra crit to up your HPS a little more.
Sorry, I should have said it more clearly: the mp5 flask is generally only "useful" when flash spamming, but it is not ideal. The Int flask is ideal in every case across the board, as the extra HPS is always useful and stacking crit has higher scaling returns than flat mp5, especially if you do straight Holy Lights.
You and I are essentially saying the same thing (although your math is a little on the incorrect side; 142 seconds for 25 mp5 to equate to 710 mana, and when you have kings, the int flask is .98% crit, not .5% crit).
Sorry, I should have said it more clearly: the mp5 flask is generally only "useful" when flash spamming, but it is not ideal. The Int flask is ideal in every case across the board, as the extra HPS is always useful and stacking crit has higher scaling returns than flat mp5, especially if you do straight Holy Lights.
Again, I would debate that. My first hand experience is that at least in T5/T6 content, I get better returns from Mighty Resto. This may differ in SWP, but for these purposes we're not talking about SWP - we're talking BT and Hyjal, as that's what was being asked about.
You and I are essentially saying the same thing (although your math is a little on the incorrect side; 142 seconds for 25 mp5 to equate to 710 mana
Yes, and 213 seconds is how long it takes to equate to the 1065 mana you actually get from FoDW + Kings.
Also, I didn't say that FoDW gave 0.5% crit. I said the gains and losses from switching to my regen set were almost the same as those between switching the two flasks. The 0.48% crit difference and 22 +heal is the "almost" - a 1% or 2% reduction in the level of those stats doesn't really compare to the 12.3% increase in the other.
Very sorry to kinda derail here again but my head is kinda smoking trying to decide is it really worth sacrificing like 1% spell crit and buy healing legs from new vendor compared ones from the old one. Any thoughts and advice would again be greatly appreciated.
Very sorry to kinda derail here again but my head is kinda smoking trying to decide is it really worth sacrificing like 1% spell crit and buy healing legs from new vendor compared ones from the old one. Any thoughts and advice would again be greatly appreciated.
Comparing with your legs (armory): considering awesomeness of Kara legs, badge one are a sidegrade. If it's worth paying that many badges - it is up to you. If you don't want to miss crit, you could socket 2 x 10 crit gems. In this case you would trade 1 crit rating for a few mp5 and healing.
In general, you could hardly get an upgrade for any slot without sacrifizing one of the stats. Since items with all stats on them distributed nicely are very rare. Badge legs are an upgrade in general even with sacrifized crit. But upgrade is too small for 2 tier item difference (badge legs are iLvL 141, Tier6 lvl; Kara legs are T4 lvl).
Comparing 2 badge rewards: I would choose older one, due to the fact that they have 3 sockets and you could do really heavy +healing. Also, they cost less, while being about as good as a new reward (due to a lot of iPoints spent on sta).
Hey guys, thanks for all the great info and discussions. I've learned a lot here so far.
I was wondering if anyone could make any suggestions with what I should go for next with my badges. Looking at Rawr, I would think the legs, but it doesn't seem like a huge upgrade for 100 badges.
I'm running BT/Hyjal a bit now, and also sometimes SSC/TK/ZA. Thanks guys and gals.
Your Legs are a good candidate for an upgrade if you have the Badges yes. But the expensive Badges waste too much stats on Stamina and Int.
Out of personal preference i would rather go for [High Justicar's Legplates]. 75 Badges and a a flat 73 Healing upgrade speak for themself (if the same Gems are used as in your current legs + 1 Teardrop Living Ruby for the red socket + [Golden Spellthread]).
So you would gain/loose the following:
+ 73 Healing (53 with cheap enchant)
+ 2 Spell Crit Rating
+ 9 Sta
- 10 mp/5
Fair trade but in the End it is your call but in my experience Healing is harder to come by than Mp/5 (Statfood, Flask, Weapon Oil). Just a useful hint: [Smooth Dawnstone] is not the same as [Gleaming Dawnstone].
Last edited by Namoya : 06/24/08 at 4:28 AM.
Reason: Forgot Socket Bonus
Hey guys, thanks for all the great info and discussions. I've learned a lot here so far.
I was wondering if anyone could make any suggestions with what I should go for next with my badges. Looking at Rawr, I would think the legs, but it doesn't seem like a huge upgrade for 100 badges.
The first thing you need to do is commit suicide, for enchanting your rings with Spellpower instead of Healing Power.
Once you're dead, you can start thinking about upgrading your gear. You have enough crit for now and MP5 in excess, so solutions that drop you a bit of MP5 aren't bad. Namoya's suggestion is definitely a goer.
Other than that, most of your upgrades at this time are marginal and come from drops - Stainless Cloak for RRHC, Anveena's Touch if you get a little short on stats, et cetera. The best other upgrade I can see is to try and replace your T4 pieces with T5. That will be worth a small amount of +heal and MP5, but more importantly four sockets.
Last two pieces to consider: assuming you're farming Naj'entus, it is well worth bidding on [Guise of the Tidal Lurker]. Unlike most leather, it has absolutely no wasted points for a Paladin. Stat-wise it's roughly equivalent to your current helm, but with red and meta sockets. That will give you access to [Insightful Earthstorm Diamond].
Getting IED will boost your regen to the point where spending your badges on [Ecclesiastical Cuirass] becomes a good idea.
Anyway, I've been reading this thread quite a bit and I've learned a lot so I thought I'd look here for some advice on improving my healing.
Currently, my guild is 4/5 MH and 4/9 BT. We're usually short on healers and have about 1 spriest that is usually put with the ranged DPS group. Because of this, I find myself having a hard time MT healing on fights such as gorefiend.
I can't put an armory link to show my exacty gear because I logged out in PvP gear but I have about 1.9k healing, 24$ spell crit, 171 mp5, and 121 haste unbuffed.
On a good fight, I can pull off about 775-850 HPS fully buffed and with chain potting and weaving in a Divine Illumination between my heals, I can keep mana up no problem.
I'm fairly new to raid healing so I've been FoL7 spamming for raid heals when needed and chain-HL7 casting when I'm healing a MT while throwing the occasional HL11 to cover up any spike damage. The main problem I have is my fairly low HPS and overall healing done compared to other healers. On a raiding day where we have a fair number of skilled healers, I struggle to break free from the middle of the top healers list.
So, I came here. I wanted to know what I could change, stat-wise or rotation-wise, to improve my overall effectiveness as a Healadin. Half of my gear is PvP S2/S3 honor gear and the rest is ZA/Pre-2.4 badge loot. Any help would be appreciated. =)
So, I came here. I wanted to know what I could change, stat-wise or rotation-wise, to improve my overall effectiveness as a Healadin.
"Re-roll Shaman" kind of sums it up, really. Once you reach T6 content, Paladin healers are never going to be top of the healing meter and you need to get used to the fact. Shamans and Priests get to start using their multi-target heals more often, which boosts their HPS into the stratosphere. If you try chasing the meter, you'll either go OOM or take your attention off your target for too long and cause a wipe.
Anyway, I've been reading this thread quite a bit and I've learned a lot so I thought I'd look here for some advice on improving my healing.
Currently, my guild is 4/5 MH and 4/9 BT. We're usually short on healers and have about 1 spriest that is usually put with the ranged DPS group. Because of this, I find myself having a hard time MT healing on fights such as gorefiend.
I can't put an armory link to show my exacty gear because I logged out in PvP gear but I have about 1.9k healing, 24$ spell crit, 171 mp5, and 121 haste unbuffed.
On a good fight, I can pull off about 775-850 HPS fully buffed and with chain potting and weaving in a Divine Illumination between my heals, I can keep mana up no problem.
I'm fairly new to raid healing so I've been FoL7 spamming for raid heals when needed and chain-HL7 casting when I'm healing a MT while throwing the occasional HL11 to cover up any spike damage. The main problem I have is my fairly low HPS and overall healing done compared to other healers. On a raiding day where we have a fair number of skilled healers, I struggle to break free from the middle of the top healers list.
So, I came here. I wanted to know what I could change, stat-wise or rotation-wise, to improve my overall effectiveness as a Healadin. Half of my gear is PvP S2/S3 honor gear and the rest is ZA/Pre-2.4 badge loot. Any help would be appreciated. =)
-Ryuufaith~
You should never be chain casting HL at all, not even downranked.. this was only semi-viable with 4pc t5 pre-nerf. Spamming FoL on tanks is your friend, most mana efficient and will grant you less overheal.. Obviously HL when necessary but definitely shouldn't be your main heal for tank or raid healing. There are obviously some situations where you must spam (stomp on brut comes to mind). Your +heal seems a bit low to start stacking haste, in my opinion..
Paladin healing (or any healing class, for that matter) isn't about topping meters, its about keeping your target up while not running out of mana with or without a shadow priest. In BT and Hyjal there is more raid damage than ever before so your shamans and CoH priests and raid healing druids will almost always outheal you.
You should never be chain casting HL at all, not even downranked.. this was only semi-viable with 4pc t5 pre-nerf. Spamming FoL on tanks is your friend, most mana efficient and will grant you less overheal.. Obviously HL when necessary but definitely shouldn't be your main heal for tank or raid healing. There are obviously some situations where you must spam (stomp on brut comes to mind). Your +heal seems a bit low to start stacking haste, in my opinion..
Paladin healing (or any healing class, for that matter) isn't about topping meters, its about keeping your target up while not running out of mana with or without a shadow priest. In BT and Hyjal there is more raid damage than ever before so your shamans and CoH priests and raid healing druids will almost always outheal you.
Well, most of the healers in my raid are pallies which is why I brought up meters. Perhaps I should've mentioned that... As for the haste, I don't really stack it. The haste just comes with gear that I've picked up. I've also been told to FoL spam but I've done personal testing and found my FoL setup to be inferior in HPS and overall healing done as compared to my HL7 setup.
Wow Web Stats This WWS is of a guild Supremus fight in which there is one other paladin who is similarly geared and is using a FoL setup. You can see that I(Ryuufaith) have a higher HPS and overall healing than the otehr paladin(Lilmissheal) and I also have less overhealing done. I appreciate the input though and more advice would be appreciated.
06/20/08, 10:01 PM
. I said that some extra haste would be good to have in such particular and similar situations. Also when we moved from 11 to 9 healing twins (reverse order, brought 10 healers and 1 DCed), some of the shamans told me that haste was really good to have. One of them has around 250ish (and SP ofc 
Similar Threads
