It's not sometimes, it's just depending on what you're looking at. If you're looking at burst, then yes I'm ignoring it. If you're looking for efficiency, I'm not ignoring it, but it's not the most powerful stat.

The reason it's definitely less than 50% is that obviously you will overheal more with crit than you'd overheal without crit, while doing 1.5x healing every time you crit (mana returns from illumination is calculated already, it's not being ignored either). So with say 20% crit, your heal will land on average for 10% more than it would with 0% crit, but will also overheal more than your average heal overheals for. This is because you *try* to heal people based on how much HP they're missing based on your non crit heal (wether you succeed in practice or not doesn't matter), and the fact you try that is already enough to force some level of bias against crit, as in assuming it heals for less than +50% on average on every crit. Of course sometimes you heal someone who needs more than your actual heal heals for, so you'll actually get effective healing from it, therefore crit doesn't go all into overhealing.

Where exactly it's at between that 0% and 50% I'm not sure, but even assuming it's close to 50% doesn't show crit as an amazing stat. And considering the way I play and the way people posting here claim they play, seems like at least a significant portion of my and their crit healing goes to waste. For the reasons that were already brought up (such as the fact your normal heals also overheal, and the difference between fights/players/situations), finding the exact or even a decent estimation of how much of the crit actually goes to overhealing is very hard. But I think I brought enough evidence for why it should definitely be noticeably under 50% and noticeably above 0%, for efficiency calculations.

The claim I make of crit giving nothing for emergency burst healing is a completely different argument.

Definitely not trying to derail the thread, because I'm still quite uncertain of how to value crit, but this is something I've posted on my guild forums and something I'm trying to figure out for myself.

Thanks to arena points/personal ratings, I don't really have any money concerns, so the money spent leveling alchemy, etc is completely irrelevant.

Here is the post:




Trying to decide what 2 professions to use while we progress and clear through sunwell.

Currently I'm Enchanting and Jewelcrafting, but I've been considering Alchemy.

Here are the benefits of each over status quo/non-tradeskill best of the best.

Enchanting:
-> +40 healing (enchanting your rings versus scrub non enchanting rings)

Jewelcrafting:
-> +4heal, +2crit (BoP Epic gems vs BT/SW/lolbadge Epic gems)
-> +16heal, +2mp5, +3int, +5haste ([Amulet of Flowing Life] vs [Brooch of the Highborne])

Total Jewelcrafting Benefits:
-> +20heal, +2crit, +2mp5, +3int, +5haste

Alchemy:
-> +7mp5 (taken from following excerpt)


WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT:

Before I can really compare the 40 healing(Enchanting) to the 7mp5(Alchemy) to the 20heal, 2crit, 2mp5, 3int, 5haste, 100lawl(Jewelcrafting), I need to determine first that the Glimmering Naaru Sliver actually exists and second how the effect being channeled effects it.

Since it is channeled you lose 8 seconds of doing anything else... what does this cost you and more importantly when can you fit it in.... I'm just not sure how I feel about it yet. I'm a lot more partial to passive abilities, and I consider alchemy ability passive, because potting isn't an option sometimes.

I'm trying to think of encounters that I would be able to think to myself, "oh here I am with a 2000 mana deficit... time to pop my SLIVER MAN" and drop healing and channel for 8 seconds. Illidan moving in to phase 2 maybe and of course it would be pretty amazing for arena, but I dunno how useful it is otherwise for a Paladin.

If the fact that it is channeled makes the mp5 gain higher than 7, closer to like 20 or even more, then I think alchemy will pull ahead of jewelcrafting for min/maxing.

*Note: I'm not actually considering replacing Enchanting, because the gains are independent of gear, whereas the Alchemy and Jewelcrafting gains are strictly this patch, sunwell top end loot dependent.



Sorry if some of that seems a bit silly, odd, but it was for my guild forums/didn't original type it to post here lol. If anybody has any insight please let me know =))

Thanks

One thing to note about alchemey trinket is that most people won't get the Muru trinket until after kil'jaeden is daed. Which is ultimately what we are gearing for. You also don't need to channel it which can be a huge deal on some fights. Highly unlikely on Brutallus I can user Sliver anywhere near enough for 33mp5.

You also forgot about Leatherworking with [Drums of Restoration] 25mp5 for each person in your party (and they stack).

Ok, someone help me out here. I'm trying to make sure I'm not missing something simple. This goes back a few pages, but I've seen it referenced a few times since then...

The idea that they would only be casting ~100 ~2 second cast time spells in a fight that lasted 360 seconds (so only 200 seconds of cast activity) on one of the highest burst fights currently in game seemed very odd to me, so I went and took a closer look at the WWS.

Looking at the WWS, it's clear that the two bears (Sammy and Azzie) are the tanks. Now let's look at the report for abilities used for one of the 3 pallies, Fenira for example. According to this list, Fen cast only 98 HL, as Palados had mentioned.

However, if you look at the Breakdown for Fen under "Heals Out", it's stated that Fen hit Sammy 91 times and Azzie 80 times. If we take these two together (91+80=171) and assume a cast time of ~2 seconds, then we come out with a total cast time of ~342 seconds for these casts alone (Fen actually had a heal or two cast on himself in addition). This ~342 out of 360 seconds seems far more likely to me than having only spent 200 seconds casting, and also makes more sense in covering the damage. It really is far more likely that none of the pallys had no down time than that they had 40+% down.

Am I misreading the WWS somehow, or is there really an issue with what's stated on the abilities page? Or is there potentially something else here that I'm overlooking...

Yup, that explains it then. This makes far more sense, encounter wise.

I don't agree with that logic at all. If I always cast heals in estimation of fulling there health up exactly, then yes crit would be quite crappy for increasing healing done. But how often when does that happen in tank healing. If my tank is down around 5000 health (the situation where you say crit overhealing is the most noticeable) I will not use a Holy Light, except if maybe I am the only healer on the tank and only then if he can take a lot of burst. When tanks have 25k health, being at 80% health is not cause for a Holy Light. Especially when my average FoL hits for 2600 (with crits, 2300 without). Most of time I use Holy Light on the tank is when he gets closer to 8k health down. In that situation a Holy Light crit won't really overheal at all. If I overheal then it is mainly wether or not someone healed the tank before I did.

Sure, non crit Holy Lights overheal as well. But you also get a lot of crits that do 8500 pure effective healing. So you need to empirically analyze data on how many of your non crit Holy Light spells overheal versus how many crit Holy Lights don't overheal before you can argue that point.

This isn't really true for raid healing at all. But the almost all of the time I am tank healing, so that is what I gear for.

I never claimed I know exactly how many of the spell crits effectively add healing. I just said that the total increase in healing done is less than crit/2 and more than 0, for the exact reason of what you just said - you don't always get heals wasted when you heal nor do you always use them fully. On average it would be somewhere in between, and for efficiency what matters is the average.
Anyway remember I did the "max possible" value of crit assuming you get most of the crits healing as effectively as non-crits and crit still wasn't a stat worth stacking mostly (although at that max value it gets more comparable to argue that it's dependent on some factors). However I don't think it's anywhere near the full 50%. Even when FoLing a tank you're usually just topping him off along with the other healers, and while it's hard to say how much overhealing it adds versus effective healing, it definitely adds more "overhealing per effective healing added" than +healing/mp5/haste add. How much I'm not sure, but it's most likely not something neglicible.
If you find a way to actually give a good estimation of crit overhealing I'd love to see it.

Regarding the WWS, if he casted 98 hits and 73 crits for a total of 171 HLs, he spent 143640 mana. While he did have every mana support possible (which generally would mean you don't care about efficiency much so all efficiency calculations are nearly moot anyway), I still don't see how he had mana to cast all of this.

Illumination 29,772
Vampiric Touch 21,545
Spiritual Attunement 8,107
Restore Mana 8,116
Drums of Restoration 4,560
Mana Spring 3,925
Mana Restore 3,900
Mana Tide Totem (Mana) 2,226

Totals to 82151 mana, which means he started the fight with 61489. So either he regened mana from sources WWS doesn't record, in which case he had amounts of mana that are more rediculessly high than what you'd normally expect from having SP+shaman+pots which would mean he doesn't really care about efficiency so efficiency calculations don't hold, or he simply didn't cast that many holy lights. Either way there's a problem with WWS, and either way what actually happened in the fight doesn't contradict anything I've said so far.


I'd also love to see a way to calculate how faster heals (while keeping HPS constant) help your efficiency as well as your burst HPS - as they obviously help but the amount in which they help is quite hard to put into numbers for niether efficiency nor burst healing. That is how much burst HPS would you give up for having your cast time shortened by X (assuming that's an HPS loss after reducing cast time)? How much efficiency are you willing to give up for reducing your cast time by X (ignoring burst HPS benefits of it)?

With 15k starting mana then he'd need 645 mp5 over the 6 minutes. The only way to explain is if he wasn't casting max ranks, which means the HPS->mp5 conversion works just fine except you need to calculate using the minimum HL rank instead of FoL, and that's assuming you really can't cast a single FoL during the fight and he wasn't just using downranked HLs instead of FoLs as a way to burn extra mana for some extra safety (which would again mean you don't really care about efficiency but more about HPS).

Bottom line is no matter what situation that paladin from the WWS was in, that data doesn't contradict any theorycrafting I've explained so far.

Paladins on Brutallus generally vary between R7/R9/R11 HL, and perhaps R1 for LG on occasion, so thats definitely a possibility.

If you can afford a R7 HL are you really unable to ever afford a FoL (resulting with more mana to sparingly HL11 when needed)? The HPS difference isn't really big while the efficiency loss isn't small.

Anyway the bottom line is you're never spamming HL11s therefore my efficiency calculation system has use when efficiency matters.

Sorry, the first time I read your post I thought you meant 50% of the gained healing from crits (ie 1250 of a 7500 crit). Yes, the value of crit overheals is between the min and max, that is all you proved.

Why do you say that when spamming FoL on the tank that +heal adds a lot more then +crit that it is worth more the Illumination mana no matter what? With 2300 average Flash of Lights (which I can get with 2750 buffed healing and ToL in tank group) 1% crit adds 12 per FoL on average, while 45 healing (aproximately equal in item points) adds 22. The crit also gives you 3.6mp5 on average. While this isn't good enough to stack it (ie still not gem for crit), it can still effect gearing choices. Like trying to decide if you should replace [Implacable Guardian Sabatons] with [Pearl Inlaid Boots].

I am not saying I know exactly how much it is worth. But that you shouldn't just write it off for burst healing and it as at healing throughput as you say. Yes I know it isn't efficient to stack, but there are lot a gearing choices besides what stat to stack.