Really, the problem is that if you're gearing primarily around spell haste and don't get a spriest.. you won't be able to last using a large portion of Holy Lights of any rank. Therefore you're going to be using mostly flashes, in which case your HPS is going to be extremely limited either way and since you can never acquire enough haste such that it nets you the FoL HPS to use FoL over Holy Light, you're best off gearing for more longevity.
I thought that this was discussed way earlier within this thread: Spell Haste's value is stripped of almost all of it's value should mana ever become a concern.
If none of your raid's holy paladins in Sunwell are using a spriest the majority of the time, convince your leadership to recruit more Hunters(more/equal dps, not reliant on a spriest).
When it comes to T6 content and Spell Haste.. sure it's nice to the point where Illidan Cape and BBoK are best available to you, but really raid and tank damage is so very minimal in those zones that it's far from needed. You could gem all 10 Spirit gems and be fine. But seriously, just go by this rule: If mana is rarely an issue(most likely relating to a spriest or not), start gemming for more and more haste.
I have just recently started stacking spell haste and well given proper rotations of DI/DF/Pots, mana is rarely an issue, not even on KJ or Muru for me. I am given a Spriest for maybe one fight, Muru, and I find that mana is rarely an issue.
The nicest thing about paladin gear is that in pve they give us enough base mp5/healing/crit, to basically do what we want to with our gems, ie: heal stacking, haste, balance, crit, whatever you want.
In sunwell I have found that haste is the dominant way to go over crit or a balance set-up. My two favorite so far have been heal stacking and haste.
The mana issue may come from the whole fact that I heal stacked for a year+ and have never had a great abundance of mp5, or crit, or it could be just from knowing what heals to push and what heals to save for oh crap moments.
HL7 is my premiere heal on raids. Typically a rotation on a tank is HLHLDIHLFOLFOLHLDFHLHLHLFOLHL, etc its pretty much just a mindset with what gear you are using. Mana is not a problem with my haste set-up. Then again I also don't give a crap about topping meters or being the top-dog paladin on WWS and all i care about is keeping my target alive and doing my job properly.
Naturally you'd be fine without a spriest if your healing assignment wasn't so demanding in terms of the HPS required. I'd be interested to compare our HPS as well as overhealing and healing assignments on a few fights. It does sound to me like our healing strategies vary a bit, I've always preferred healing outside of my assignment.. especially on KJ and without a spriest my limited HPS wouldn't really allow for it.
As far as heals casted, I stick to FoL7 and HL9 so the healing output would naturally be a bit higher.. really it comes down to what you gain by taking away the spriest from the paladin vs what you gain by giving one a spriest.. and since we run 3 hunters we really don't lose any DPS and one caster group does get conc aura when it's nice(such as KJ).
In Sunwell I do a mix of tanking and healing. I heal for Kalecgos, Brutallus, and Twins. For all 3 of the fights I am lucky to get a Shadow Priest because the DPS need it more or the Resto Shaman get one while also buffing the dps group. Because of this I have been really against gemming any form of haste in my sockets. However, because it is important that you focus on HPS heavily due to massive damage I have tried spell crit for the past 2 months, which has been nice and seeing lots of crits is really great. Also, I never had Memento till last night (woot!). The problem I have seen with crit though is that has a very unnoticable upgrade as you put more and more in. I believe I only got about 2% crit (purely rough estimate).
Anyways, the only fight I have a real bad mana problem is Brutallus. The incoming damage is not that strong compared Kalecgos and Twins thus hurting my mana pool and the damage output to the tanks are obviously strong. I think I am going to try Spell Haste because I hear about it everyday that I should be going spell haste and that crit is horrid. Also, as Xulthus stated, the itemization on T6+ gear is really amazing.
Libram Swapping mid combat
I was online for a limited time today after the change. Is it possible now to swap librams between casts or is this technique completely destroyed? (I sincerely apologize if this was posted in this thread earlier)
Last edited by Tuesasinus : 07/16/08 at 3:44 AM.
Reason: missing words
I was online for a limited time today after the change. Is it possible now to swap librams between casts or is this technique completely destroyed? (I sincerely apologize if this was posted in this thread earlier)
It is no longer possible to swap librams as you start a cast. Libram swapping is now only viable if you have a full global cooldown to waste since swapping once a cast has started now cancels any cast.
For those of you that have trouble getting the BBoK, I would suggest the ZA ring as a cheap replacement. Sure it lacks stam, but other than that, they are pretty close.
Tpyo: Our healing through put will be vastly different especially if you get a spriests and use hl9 rather than 7. With cancel casting I tend to not do as much brute healing as others but my effective healing and overheal are pretty much not nearly similar. Then again if you have excess mana I believe overheal is not bad.
The gains and losses for having a spriests, i personally believe, are minimal. We gain the vast amount of mana back, making it so we can uprank or we can even spam cast. Those pivotal times when you have to regen may be out the window too. With a spriest I think comes more caution than when you have that mana battery, again this is all just a mindset in healing, which yes is a mindset and nothing more. If you have your mind on healing and producing the best results, you have all the tools in front of you to do so, you cant theorycraft that.
To go onto haste vs. anything else, again preference, if you produce the best results with your gear set-up, go you. If you dont, maybe you should experiment with other things. I am certain you and I have no problems with pushing HPS, being that I believe thats one of the most important things for a paladin, no healing overall, but hps done, as that shows the most effective of tank healing.
Some fights I have found haste kind of mediocre for: Muru (prenerf), anything in BT, all of this is just because for muru I have been on void tank duty and I would like more burst healing in this situation. Again...preference. And I said BT because well Im pretty sure you could heal that with 0/0/0 as your spec.
Hi Tues!
The nerf to libram swapping hit me like a ton of bricks on brut last night. I think i canceled like 3 pivotal heals on our feral...I was not very happy, thank god haste saved my ass :O.
All in all I have to rank my experiments with each gem set up as follows:
1. Haste
2. Healing
3. Balance
4. Crit
5. anything else you can muster...
I really think that pushing HPS is just phenomenal in this game, not to mention, I am EST playing on a PST server now, and with the haste I can basically negate any server lag (if any) or UI lag I am experiencing, it is just an amazing stat. And trust me I was anti-haste when i was stacking 22s thinking i was a real pally baller, shorts included, with really high healing and amazing burst heals. Crit was just mediocre, I love having a good base stat of it just like mp5, but other than that, i think that there is much more you can do with healing or haste, even a balance set-up, that just brings more to the paladin class.
But the bottom line for paladins. Its preference. You wanna stack int? Go ahead, I tried it pre-tbc in the BWL/AQ era, for crit! I wouldnt do it again but hell if thats what you wanna do! DO IT!
But if we are gonna talk gemming for pvp...I dont even know where to begin on live let alone comment about it on a public forum, I think I shall try crit again.
I just do BT, but I have found spell haste to be the best stat to put in yellow gem slots for PvP and PvE.
However, you need about 50 haste before you start seeing a difference (0.05 seconds faster on Flash).
The only issue with using haste is if you want to play a shockadin in your healing gear, your dps is barely increased with having spell haste.
Losing 22 mp5 on Tuesday from Mending hurt, but I just used a few more potions to cover the difference. I have not done Arena to see how that turns out.
Losing 22 mp5 on Tuesday from Mending hurt, but I just used a few more potions to cover the difference. I have not done Arena to see how that turns out.
What Libram are you using instead of Mending then?
Most probably Souls Redeemed or the Lurker libram. It'll vary depending on whether he has enough Paladins to apply Blessing of Light, either to tank targets or globally.
With this change eliminating Mending as an option - or at least, making it inferior to the Lurker libram in any scenario where you need to cast HL more than once every eight seconds - what librams do we have left that are useful apart from Souls Redeemed?
If you downrank HL and use HL relatively often - Lurker libram is the only option. For HL7-9 it reduces mana cost by quite a few %, while souls redeemed is nerfed for downranked spells.
1. I modeled meta gems by adding a 3k 'bonus'. Should help give a better sorted list for helms.
2. I added a spell crit modifier. Basically this allows you to modify the 'advantage' you get from spell crit. Because of overheal, some amount of spell crit is wasted from a healing perspective (not mana returned - just the extra healing). This modifier is used to properly weight the impact of spell crit for ordering item lists. I use 50% of the 'extra' healing as useful. In other words I value a crit as giving me 1.25x extra healing, not 1.5x.
3. I added a modifier for how much time you are out of the 5 sec rule. This helps in calculating spirit based mana regen.
4. I added a spot to type in the Mp5 you get from an 'in party' shadow priest.
5. I added skullfish soup and modifiers for shaman totems and abilities.
6. I modeled spell haste. Basically I gave a modifier that multiplies against the spell haste increase. So if you have a 1% cast time decrease (15.7 spell haste), this can translate into x * 1%, where x is something you set. If you have infinite mana and FoL spam - then x should be 1 - which increases your healing output by 1%. If you are mana limited then x should be 0 (basically saying that spell haste didn't increase you overall healing because you are not time limited but mana limited). Something in between can help model a 'I'm not out of mana often and want to properly view spell hastes advantages in getting a spell off quicker. This is useful in how items are sorted.
7. Mp5 modifier was added. Some paladins are in a situation where mana is never a problem. To them Mp5 has little to no value. So this modifier is a multiplier against Mp5 which then helps weight the attribute when sorting the item lists. 0 means no Mp5 weighting. 1 means normal weighting (ie: mana limited fight). This only effects how items are sorted.
I also added a number of new items and probably some buffs and other stuff I forgot. Take a look at it and let me know your thoughts.
If you downrank HL and use HL relatively often - Lurker libram is the only option. For HL7-9 it reduces mana cost by quite a few %, while souls redeemed is nerfed for downranked spells.
I use Soul Redeemed if Tanks have Light otherwise Libram of Light (I am in BT so use more Flash than HL).
I thought Souls was a flat bonus to healing if your target has Light; I know for Flash I get a flat 60 added to the heal. Perhaps it is reduced with HL7, but HL9+ is not affected by downranking.
Edit: The spreadsheet linked above does not have Season 4 items, like Brutal Ornamanted pieces and the Guardian's pieces. Season 3 stuff is there though.
Edit: The spreadsheet linked above does not have Season 4 items, like Brutal Ornamanted pieces and the Guardian's pieces. Season 3 stuff is there though.
Yep - I don't PVP so it tends to be the last stuff that gets put in when I update. I'll attempt over the next couple of weeks. Typically the PvP gear is a 1 tier downshift from PvE. So I'd expect the S4 gear to be somewhere around BT level or maybe a smidge worse.
I'd also like to add that as you gather more Haste the Lurker Libram becomes amazingly better. Here is an example:
Constant state of casting no haste:
34 mana off heals basically meaning 34mp2 translating to 85mp5.
Constant state of casting 151 haste:
151\15.7= rounded down 9
2[Cast time of HL with Light's Grace]\9=.22repeating[.22 sec off cast time]
1.8 sec cast on HL with Light's Grace
34 mana off Holy Light cast meaning 34mp1.8 translating to 94.4 repeating mana per 5 seconds.
People really need to convince their guilds to do Lurker. I also apologize if my math is confusing.
I'd also like to add that as you gather more Haste the Lurker Libram becomes amazingly better.
But only if you're casting 100% of the time, and casting nothing but HL. Your figures are somewhat misleading in that regard, as they exclude factors such as latency between casts, movement, and moments when there's no need to cast.
Based on a more typical figure of 24 HLs per minute, [Libram of Absolute Truth] is worth more like 68 MP5 with no haste. If you have a Flash:HL8 ratio of 1:4, you lose another 10 MP5. At a 2:3 ratio it's down to a 43 MP5 bonus, and by the time you hit 1:1 you're better off using LoSR for the increased healing if you have BoLight available.
Also, if you need to spam HL at any significant rank for any great length of time, surely you would have a Shadow Priest?
In SWP I found myself casting FoL less and less. I use HL7 instead as a spell to spam between HL9-11. FoL is too small to be relevant and in encounters where your target has 'no damage' periods your mana is also OK to cast HL7 instead of FoL. So Lurker libram is quite nice, while souls Redeemed is not that good (for HL7 it doesn't add any significant amount of heal to overweight Lurker libram). And no, I don't have SP (save probably Brutallus, but there each and every bit of mana helps and FoL isn't used).
Off-topic:
WotLK Beta: Blessing of Light and Greater Blessing of Light removed. Their effects have been folded into all relevant abilities.
But only if you're casting 100% of the time, and casting nothing but HL. Your figures are somewhat misleading in that regard, as they exclude factors such as latency between casts, movement, and moments when there's no need to cast.
Based on a more typical figure of 24 HLs per minute, [Libram of Absolute Truth] is worth more like 68 MP5 with no haste. If you have a Flash:HL8 ratio of 1:4, you lose another 10 MP5. At a 2:3 ratio it's down to a 43 MP5 bonus, and by the time you hit 1:1 you're better off using LoSR for the increased healing if you have BoLight available.
Also, if you need to spam HL at any significant rank for any great length of time, surely you would have a Shadow Priest?
Thank you for clearing that up. But, no you will not always have a Shadow Priest (at least I don't seem to). FoL seems nearly absolete in the SWP level of raiding to be honest. HL rank 7 for me has been the heal to stick with for a majority of the fights.
There are still many good chances to flash in SWP. The encap target on Felmyst, inbetween stomps if mana is becoming tight, when humanoid waves are winding down on M'uru, cross-raid healing on Twins/KJ, etc.
Why do you choose FoL over HL7 for M'uru or twins fight? HL7 has more HPS and still OK to not go oom due to spiritual attunement (at least for me it wasn't a problem). You could say that foL is faster, but as soon as you have enough time to cast HL7 it should be preffered. And if you don't have this time - well, FoL hardly changes much.
FoL has two advantages over HL - it is very mana effective and has faster cast time. As soon as your mana is OK to move to less effective (and more HPS) spell then 1st advantage is disapearing. Faster cast time is only good in emergency situations (and in those situation in M'uru and twins fight FoL hardly makes any difference) or if you want to heal many people (that you shouldn't in usual situations).
We typically go with the bare minimum of tank healers, so I tend to not drift too far from my assignment. Thus, I tend to lean more on my faster flashes than drift too far to risk a HL of any sort (1.3'ish vs 1.7'ish cast times at my level of haste) when doing assist triage on anything that looks like it currently needs help - this is specific to Twins where it's primarily a resto tree and myself on the Sacrolash tanks.
For M'uru, any time I drift from my assignment (which is solo-heal feral tank elf camp with no HoTs/and JoW bot in the hunter dps campe) it's typically an HL9/11 on the VSent tank when he wanders over by my side and it looks like some help is needed (Sub 10k/5k hp). Since I have no hots though and only backup healing from a raid healing shaman, this isn't something I drift from often - especially considering the busy nature of rejudging mobs as they get knocked down.
HL7 is something I primarily use for tank healing or major raid healing if something is falling apart. This is usually Kalecgos for us. My mentality is to shore something up while the assigned healer for that particular area gets caught back up, so to speak. I never try to replace or ingest that particular assignment with my own healing, as I never want to compromise a tank, and a 1.3 lets me do both with the safety of not leaving my tank behind for too long. I'll HL if the situation warrants it, but my SOP is the above.
The point remains, there isn't a reason to just toss FoL off your hotbar.
anyone who says "risk a hl" boggles my mind. Arent you precasting anticipating damage anyway? If your level of haste is so "high" then why are you even bothering with an FoL? Somethings just dumbfound me.
Sure there is no reason to take it off your bar. But I can pretty much say you're HL usage compared fo FoL usage should be much much much much much much much much more. FoL spammers belong in Kara.
07/15/08, 7:37 PM
tell Kemosabe and Ishaxa i said hi)
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