Agree with Malleus. Downranking nerf strikes chaincasting. No matter how you gem, you can't chaincast anymore. Thus you will be healing reactively. Thus haste IS the best stat for you to react faster.
Is the removal of downranking being added in 3.0.2? If so, I definitely agree that stacking haste is going to be the best option for gems and will have to do so myself . Another question, I've heard that beacon of light is only working for effective heals? Wouldn't this make it quite possibly the worst spell to cast on a tank (possibly even worth leaving out of a talent spec?). The only use I can see for it would be casting it on someone who is taking dark barrage in phase 2 illidan, or similar circumstances where you would like your tanks heals to heal another player who isn't your assignment but is taking heavy damage (maybe you cast it on the OT if you are MT healing?). Seeing as the patch goes live today, I posted this here instead of in the wotlk thread.
To be honest I feel the exact opposite way about haste with downrank nerf. I feel haste has just become the worst stat and you should go for int gems instead. Even though healing is 'reactive' there's nothing to stop you from cast/cancel. I think cast/cancel with superior regen provided by stacking int is the future. I just don't see waiting for someone to take damage and then casting a heal ever working regardless of how much haste you have. You should always be casting anyway, before the downrank changes haste was good since most of those casts landed. With the downrank change a lot less of them land and as such haste is much worse.
One thing to keep in mind if you are concerned with the expenses, during leveling rating->stat conversion drops like a brick, sp being the best choice.
Yes, the change to base mana percentage for all spells is going live now. I do not think stacking haste is going to be necessary, there will be other buffs due to raidwide Windfury and 15% from Judgements of the Pure, and at level 80 there will be a lot of haste on gear as well.
BoL is of limited use in most raiding encounters, but in that it's very much like other healer's 51 point talents. Let's leave it at that. There has been a lot of discussion in the WOTLK thread about Beacon and how amazing/bad it is, and it does not need to come up here again. For just one talent point, it's great, if you want to skip Judgements of the Pure and Enlightened Judgement, that's fine too.
I will be gemming INT for now and see whether mana is going to be a big problem.
To be honest I feel the exact opposite way about haste with downrank nerf. I feel haste has just become the worst stat and you should go for int gems instead. Even though healing is 'reactive' there's nothing to stop you from cast/cancel. I think cast/cancel with superior regen provided by stacking int is the future. I just don't see waiting for someone to take damage and then casting a heal ever working regardless of how much haste you have. You should always be casting anyway, before the downrank changes haste was good since most of those casts landed. With the downrank change a lot less of them land and as such haste is much worse.
The fact of the matter remains that throughput is becoming one of our most important attributes (if not the most important?). Intellect will increase +healing, but this isn't so useful without downranking. It's more likely that +healing will simply add to overhealing. Crit rating has always been an unreliable stat in terms of HPS, which leaves stacking haste as the most reliable/preferable stat for paladins as downranking is nerfed. As stated by Palados and Malleus, palaldins are now reactive healers and throughput is the most important attribute for a reactive healer.
Does anyone know how to check if Divine Favor is on CD and if not cast it? I know how to cast it but I can not find on any of the macro sites a way to check if an ability is on CD.
This is a little late, but if you're still following this thread, what might work for you is "/castrandom divine favor". It will skip abilities on cooldown.
Tonight the t6 legs dropped from Council and went to be DEd. My friend got but did not have the 4 pc holy set. He had the legs from Kalecgos instead. He turned in the token for the holy t6 legs, and found that with the bonus, ungemmed and unenchanted his heals healed for about the same, 2100 for both legs.
His question is, would it be better to enchant the t6 legs and use for the 4pc, as it would increase the amount his FoL heals?
He loses Haste, about 10 mp5. and some crit, in favor of a bit more healing done by FoL.
Tonight the t6 legs dropped from Council and went to be DEd. My friend got but did not have the 4 pc holy set. He had the legs from Kalecgos instead. He turned in the token for the holy t6 legs, and found that with the bonus, ungemmed and unenchanted his heals healed for about the same, 2100 for both legs.
His question is, would it be better to enchant the t6 legs and use for the 4pc, as it would increase the amount his FoL heals?
If you have ten bars of chocolate, and I offer to swap them for ten identical bars of chocolate plus a voucher for a free bar of chocolate, what do you do? I think the average six year old can answer that.
Well, Malleus, I posted this in order to help him on a forum where people normally are helpful and give constructive answers, and then you come and just type something entirely unhelpful without taking into consideration the gains and losses of other stats.
Not helpful.
Now, taking those losses into consideration, which legs are more beneficial to wear, until he gets a 4pc bonus from belt/boots.
So, I just wanted to get other peoples feedback on major glyphs to use. Primarily I'm trying to decide between Flash of Light and Holy Light.
My gut feeling is very much in favor of the flash of light glyph. Reason being, if I get the holy light glyph and I find myself in a situation where only one person is taking damage and a lot of it, I'm not sure if flash of light spam would provide the HPS needed to do the job and I don't really see a 'chain heal' that hits for around 600 each target being that effective in a situation where its needed. I trust my gut feeling, but I want to make sure that it coincides with what others are thinking.
On a side note, I see a lot of people talking here about how paladins are having to heal, as far as I can tell the discussion is focusing mainly on single target healing the way we have been doing in the past. I haven't gotten a chance to see how it feels in a T6 raid, but from what I could tell in the joke kara/gruuls/mag run that I did earlier today, it feels most efficient to almost always keep beacon of light up on some target, be it the main tank if there is a lot of unfocused raid damage going around, off tank so that I can heal both at the same time or myself so that I can easily do hand of sacrifice on a target and not have to target myself ever. Do you think that a good role for pallies to fit into now in a raid would be more along the lines of raid healing and backup tank healing or should I focus more on healing the tank and throwing beacon on a random target in the raid so that at least that one person is covered?
I don't know if my ideas make sense, so on a fight like Najentus, I'm envisioning myself beaconing the tank and then healing one of the groups while still trying to watch the main tank in case a big spike comes that I need to cover and ideally have a holy shock crit proc up so that I can get that quick holy light off.
Well, Malleus, I posted this in order to help him on a forum where people normally are helpful and give constructive answers, and then you come and just type something entirely unhelpful without taking into consideration the gains and losses of other stats.
Not helpful.
You're aware that it's an explicit violation of forum rules to ask for a gear check, right?
Getting back to your question, which post-edit is open to discussion at a generic level: Paladins are now reactive healers. Our primary stats are those which increase HPS from an individual cast - haste, crit and spellpower in that order. Crit also provides longevity and additional haste from Infusion. For extra longevity we can use MP5 as required.
In the situation you describe, you're getting the same output from each non-critical Flash, but losing cast speed and crit. Each Flash is therefore taking longer to cast, and with a lower crit percentage your average Flash including crit bonus will be smaller. The equivalent healing results are illusory; you are on balance losing HPS.
I haven't seen this discussed, so I will post it here.
When 3.02 went live, it would seem that, for Holy Paladins that might consider questing outside of a raid/small group environment (aka solo questing), it is now much more difficult with how Seal of Righteousness works now.
Without crunching the numbers, it feels like I do about 15% of the damage that I used to with it; it looks like Seal of Vengeance might be the "new" Holy Paladin questing seal now. Can someone help me with this?
I plan on staying Holy-specc'd while leveling in WoTLK, but not if it is going to be *glaringly* painful to do so without a "tolerable" damage seal for a Holy Paladin to use. Thank you in advance for your consideration.
Geboran, I guess everything is relative. For at least 70-75, retribution is broken enough that it's massively faster than holy, regardless of seal. Beyond that it starts to level out some as the stat ratios steepen, but generally speaking the dps tree of any class will be much faster to level than the healing tree.
From my own anecdotal evidence, Seal of Vengeance/Seal of Corruption and Seal of Blood/Seal of the Martyr were roughly similar in a holy spec with mainly spellpower gear, and both seemed more powerful than Seal of Retribution. Again, though, if leveling speed is a concern, you probably should be in the retribution tree.
It is more painful, but my experience has been that its largely made up for by the short cooldown on Holy Shock. Given we're now judging wisdom or light 'by default' now, I found it harder to go out of mana and have been taking to pulling larger numbers of mobs rather like you might with a Prot build, which then makes decent use of the newly scaling Ret Aura and our old favourite Consecration too.
So has anyone else tried 43/0/18? Im running with just about ~50% holy light crit unbuffed (t6 bonus too), ~45% holy shock crit, and ~41% fol crit (s4 glove) and I have to say it is pretty nasty. The ridiculous amount of crit helps with being able to use holy light a lot more without mana becoming an issue. This is the build I went with; Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft and the only issue I had was to put the last 2 points into the ranged talent for the judgments or into infusion of light. ATM I would say Im still experimenting with the build, I went with the range talent to keep jol up easier for now, but if the change to make infusion give an instant fol went through it would be a no brainer.
You're aware that it's an explicit violation of forum rules to ask for a gear check, right?
Getting back to your question, which post-edit is open to discussion at a generic level: Paladins are now reactive healers. Our primary stats are those which increase HPS from an individual cast - haste, crit and spellpower in that order. Crit also provides longevity and additional haste from Infusion. For extra longevity we can use MP5 as required.
In the situation you describe, you're getting the same output from each non-critical Flash, but losing cast speed and crit. Each Flash is therefore taking longer to cast, and with a lower crit percentage your average Flash including crit bonus will be smaller. The equivalent healing results are illusory; you are on balance losing HPS.
I have no idea if this discussion is still relevant, but just thought I'd put a word in ;D
The person who asked this question said that FoL healed for the same when the pants were un-gemmed and un-enchanted, so the question was not quite so trivial.
In my opinion I'd say go with the T6 for the bonus
Paladins are now reactive healers. Our primary stats are those which increase HPS from an individual cast - haste, crit and spellpower in that order. Crit also provides longevity and additional haste from Infusion. For extra longevity we can use MP5 as required.
My issue with the above statement is two fold, and at its core is a fundamental problem I see with the Paladin Holy tree direction.
The first and foremost argument I'd make is we have barely begun to see the fights ahead of us in post-woltk launch times. We've seen what appears to be a very under-tuned instance in Naxx 25/heroic 25. To make a claim that we are now reactive healers based on whats available to us right now seems a bit.... shall we say premature? Afterall, whose to say that we won't be switched back into a chaincasting holy light turret come difficult days ahead? If the direction of this game is to get away from that, I fail to then see how any "challenges" can be thrown our way.
The only foreseeable challenge to be introduced to Paladins with the holy tree as it is, is a fight where mobility is crucial. Similar to how Felmyst requires a sort of heal on the run type of movement. The tree in its current existence satisfies this fairly well (reduced casting times through talents such as infusion of light and an improved holy shock). Yet even this challenge would get old and few classes would be able to keep up with such a fight thereby making the new Blizzard Design Philosophy (BDP™) obsolete (making every class relatively interchangeable with other classes capable of similar roles).
Secondly, my other issue with your statement "Our primary stats are those which increase HPS from an individual cast". The stats that most affect this would be +healing and +crit no? "Individual casts" shouldn't pay any attention to follow-up casts, thereby invalidating +haste as an important stat. Technicality I suppose. If your job is to increase pure HPS, however, over the duration of a fight, then sure I can see your statement being true.
Philosophically what your saying seems wrong to me. If we go back to BDP™, making Paladins the class that most excels at single target, haste impacted heals, would almost seem to be contrary to boss fight design. If we are given this much haste and we discount the notion they want us to excel at one thing; it can only mean that they wish us to be spot-healing the raid with Beacon of Light with the ability to switch back at a moments notice to the main tank. This seems a risky maneuver considering the difficulty of determining how much damage is incoming and when and how many healers are likely to be included in post-WotLK encounters. So are we truly being designed as a recipient for haste? or does this all seem like a wasted/futile/diversionary effort in Paladin revisionism?
I am less concerned about what stats to track right now (though I do agree an earlier poster that with Divine Plea, +int gemming is the way to go), and more worried about the future difficulty of this game and correspondingly with the level of fun one is going to have with the Paladin class considering BDP™.
To make a claim that we are now reactive healers based on whats available to us right now seems a bit.... shall we say premature?
Consider the following facts which are available to us right now:
1) Paladin healing spells have increased in cost across the board, but are somewhat larger.
2) The top end of the Holy tree concentrates on abilities that shorten cast times.
3) Paladins are pushed to include the hitherto prohibitively expensive Holy Shock in their rotation.
4) Paladins can no longer downrank spells to conserve mana.
5) Potion use has been reduced to one per fight.
6) Shadow Priest mana restoration worth up to 350 MP5 per Priest has been replaced with Replenishment, worth at most 175 MP5 and non-stacking.
7) Blizzard have flatly stated that facts 4-6 above were implemented to make people "worry about mana".
8) The Paladin mana regeneration spell nerfs throughput and has the stated design intention of being for emergency use only.
This is not a subtle push we're talking about here. Our expenditure has been increased, our regen slashed and just to top it off, Blizzard have all but said they don't want us chaincasting any more. So no, we shall not say it's premature to claim it.
For the glyph choice - I'm assuming you're deciding between HL and FoL because the other two are seals of light and wisdom - I think both of those suck and FoL sucks more than HL, grab LoH glyph unless you arena.
For the glyph choice - I'm assuming you're deciding between HL and FoL because the other two are seals of light and wisdom - I think both of those suck and FoL sucks more than HL, grab LoH glyph unless you arena.
My current glyphs are Holy Light and Divinity, which seemed to be the best of a moderately poor bunch for Holy. Glyph of HL has been contributing about 1.5% of my total throughput, though, so it's not totally useless. I also have LoH in a minor slot, which makes the spell pretty decent in combination with the Major glyph and 2/2 Imp - particularly as you can drop it on yourself for an instant 1980 mana.
This is not a subtle push we're talking about here. Our expenditure has been increased, our regen slashed and just to top it off, Blizzard have all but said they don't want us chaincasting any more. So no, we shall not say it's premature to claim it.
You don't find the notion of 25% of our current mana being regenerated every MINUTE contrary to your statements? Seems odd we'd need 200% of our mana for a 4 minute fight or 300% of our mana over an 8 minute fight? 20% penalty is nothing if as you say...our heals are "bigger". This is arguably the same if not more regen then we had pre-woltk sunwell (even chaincasting/chainpotting/spriest groups). If they don't want us chaincasting in the upcoming post-Naxx dungeons., why give us this regeneration potential?
Sorry as convincing as your arguments are, your ignoring other factors, including Glyphs.
For the glyph choice - I'm assuming you're deciding between HL and FoL because the other two are seals of light and wisdom - I think both of those suck and FoL sucks more than HL, grab LoH glyph unless you arena.
I am fairly sure Glyphs of Light/Wisdom use Northrend herbs, so you cannot get them yet. They are worth at least 1 talent point each, so that is not worthless.
Atm the best ones for Holy are HL and Divinity, because the rest are not for healing.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I am fairly sure Glyphs of Light/Wisdom use Northrend herbs, so you cannot get them yet. They are worth at least 1 talent point each, so that is not worthless.
Atm the best ones for Holy are HL and Divinity, because the rest are not for healing.
That didn't come out right, the FoL/HL glyphs suck. The wisdom/light ones are good - too good in my opinion but that's not the question here. For now it's HL for the other one for healing. But I'm assuming questions are for 80 though because of the current raiding situation.
Consider the following facts which are available to us right now:
1) Paladin healing spells have increased in cost across the board, but are somewhat larger.
2) The top end of the Holy tree concentrates on abilities that shorten cast times.
3) Paladins are pushed to include the hitherto prohibitively expensive Holy Shock in their rotation.
4) Paladins can no longer downrank spells to conserve mana.
5) Potion use has been reduced to one per fight.
6) Shadow Priest mana restoration worth up to 350 MP5 per Priest has been replaced with Replenishment, worth at most 175 MP5 and non-stacking.
7) Blizzard have flatly stated that facts 4-6 above were implemented to make people "worry about mana".
8) The Paladin mana regeneration spell nerfs throughput and has the stated design intention of being for emergency use only.
This is not a subtle push we're talking about here. Our expenditure has been increased, our regen slashed and just to top it off, Blizzard have all but said they don't want us chaincasting any more. So no, we shall not say it's premature to claim it.
Personally, just don't see value in gemming/enchanting haste or seeking gear with haste. JotP is a huge chunk, 4/5th's of T7 has haste on it (203 rating), raid wide buffs giving you 3% more.
Once you get down to the heart of it, your'e discussing tenths of a second differences. Put another way, your reactive healing is based upon how long your HL takes to cast, so for example if yours is at 1.4 seconds and mine is at 1.7 seconds, I just need to decide (react) sooner than you. If either of us miss our timing, we both suffer the same consequences. You will deliver slightly less healed, slightly faster while I will deliver slightly more healed, slightly slower.
Each of us will choose a play style, both of us will succeed. The pace at which our respective guilds progress will be dependant on all 25 being focused in the raid, not our respective playstyles.
10/10/08, 7:53 AM
. Another question, I've heard that beacon of light is only working for effective heals? Wouldn't this make it quite possibly the worst spell to cast on a tank (possibly even worth leaving out of a talent spec?). The only use I can see for it would be casting it on someone who is taking dark barrage in phase 2 illidan, or similar circumstances where you would like your tanks heals to heal another player who isn't your assignment but is taking heavy damage (maybe you cast it on the OT if you are MT healing?). Seeing as the patch goes live today, I posted this here instead of in the wotlk thread.
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