The Healadin Thread - Page 68

Endoscient · 04/30/08, 3:50 AM

I am currently working on a Rawr module for Paladin healing.

What I use to evaluate total healing done is compute with the amount of mana I have what my ratio of FoLs to HL will be. I use the formula:
time_hl = (totalMana - (length * FoL.Mps)) / (HL.Mps - FoL.Mps);

Then from there compute how much overall healing I do. I decided to do it this way because this takes into account that any extra mana you have is used to Holy Light more instead of Flash of Light. Here is what it looks like currently

Trying to model our Brutallus kill tonight. 5:40 fight, I had a shadow priest and resto shaman in my group. Here is a WWS of the kill.

Everything the same, except without resto shaman or shadow priest buffs.

This might look a little bit off, but somethings it doesn't consider yet.

Crits and non-crits overhealing differently - while in good situations (normally progression content) they aren't dramastically different, 40% vs. 50% will make a difference.
Mana per 5 might look really high, but some effects (Memento, Mana Spring) which don't provide Mp5 to character sheet but are easily computable to it are being adding in there.

It is not totally done yet, somethings I still need to do

A lot of items with special procs aren't included yet
Divine Illumination
Divine Favor
Healing on non BoL targets
Downranking

Any feedback or ideas would be great. If you want to try it out yourself you can check it out of the Rawr subversion repository.

One interesting thing you see is how good the +10 int gem is, but the problem with int gems and gemming for int is that it loses a lot of its value the longer the fights get. Like changing the time of the Brutallus up to 7mins it lowers the 10int gem from 2nd place to 5th (out of 9). So on shorter fights int is really good, but it can be 1/2 as good depending on length of the fight.

Jagdrox · 04/30/08, 6:09 AM

I reworked my mana burning % and even pushing how many Fols vs. Hls i use, intellect still seems to be a quite dominant stat. My fol rk6 burn % is 19%, which is kind of high in my opinion. One must take into account that fol is a cheap set of spells and 6 rk6 fols cost the same as 1 rk11 HL.
My new values for 19% rk 6 fol, 50% rk 9 HL, 26% rk 11HL, and 3% rk6HL. Fight time lowered to 500s, as 600s is the extreme.
Int= 319
Heal= 120
mp5= 954
crit= 285

numbers not too different from my previous calculation.
The rawr seems fascinating... The addition of a shadow priest is a luxury i'm rarely afforded, as I don't "need" it. skill, down ranking, mana management, chain potting and other methods are things paladins should be doing constantly if not getting a shadow priest and so i do.

Back to itemization... from a thoughtful point of view. Pure int and mp5 make sense, one is extremely good for short fights and the other helps keep the engine running.
HL critting though is completely necessary... but a single gem of 10crit rating, doesn't seem to cut it compared to 4int 2mp5, according to the model presented.
Also a whole section has been discussed about +healing, and must be taken into account, as pre-BC imo it was the only stat worth getting if one was going to raid heal in addition to buff bot. +healing allows one to down rank significantly to save mana, but again is 22+healing over a 250 heal fight vs. 600s of 4 mp5. It almost seems like a control question at this point in my opinion. Is it possible to really control your critting to prevent over healing, is it possible to control the perfect rank every time to prevent overhealing because +heal is so high.
Some of the more recent fights, from what i've read, (i'm still raiding "beginning content"), seems to stress healing to the limit and make +healing very useful, for even rk 11 HL might not cut healing a tank without sufficient +healing.

I'm still looking for more advice, personally i'm going to try replacing some of my 9healing 2mp5 gems with 4int 2mp5, and my 11healing 4 int w/ 4int 2mp5, and one of my 11healing 4crit w/ 4 int 2mp5 and see how it affects my raid performance.

Also is there anyway to model using the data spread sheet having S1, S2, or S3 gloves, which give 2% crit to fol. I am sure that will affect my calculations.

Malleus · 04/30/08, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by Zarty

Unbuffed I have 2030 +heal, 10.6k mana, 107 mp5 (in combat), 17.9% spell crit (not holy), and 25 haste rating. I've been trying to grab some crit items but haven't seen many yet (like [Glowing Breastplate of Truth]--though I'm not convinced it's an upgrade to [Chestguard of Hidden Purpose].

In particular I've been struggling with which trinkets to use. I have: [Pendant of the Violet Eye] [Lower City Prayerbook], [Tome of Diabolic Remedy], [Scarab of the Infinite Cycle]. I've also considered buying a [Xi'ri's Gift] for more crit, or talking my guild into letting me grab a [Sextant of Unstable Currents].

I generally tank heal (or assist heal on fights where that's appropriate.) I've mostly been trying for a balance of stats since I haven't been able to decide what to focus on, though I've been grabbing the various haste/crit/mp5 pieces as I can.

edit: I've also been considering socketing for crit, since my crit is so low, but I'm not sure that's a good idea.

I know people who swear by socketing for crit, but they're either serious crit whores or they geared purely for regen and need to compensate. Right now, though, you shouldn't be having problems. Your crit/MP5 balance is roughly the same as mine - the 2.5% extra crit you have is matched by the 20 extra MP5 I keep - you're doing the same job I do, and I do fine on even the hardest, dirtiest jobs in T5 content. IMO, if you want more crit you should come at it from an angle of increasing crit as you gear up without reducing anything else.

GBOT vs Chestguard: Chestguard is only giving you about 50 more raw +heal than GBOT would, from a tally of 2000+. 2% crit is worth 1% of your buffed +heal and 15-18 MP5. Rhetorical question: would you take 20 +heal over 10 MP5?

Haste: 25 haste is worthless. Save your cloak until you have enough haste to reduce cast times by 6-10% IMO, and use your haste set on the fights where you need to cast a lot of HLs or move about a lot. In the mean time use Kharmaa's or Stainless Cloak.

Trinkets: the first thing you need to do is grab an Essence of the Martyr, as it's better than either trinket you have currently. I'd probably use Scarab of the Infinite Cycle as well, or Tome if I were worried about regen. Both trinkets are acceptable in most places that will take MasterCard. I'll go on record as saying I do not like the Pendant, but that's a matter of personal choice; I can see where it would be valuable.

Palados · 04/30/08, 7:54 AM

Hehe, how is 2% crit worth 15-18 mp5? Keep in mind, in T5/early T6 content you mostly use FoL and downranked HL, since you can't spam HL11 for a long time. For FoL non stop spam 2% crit is 6-7 mp5 only (assuming you never go oom till the end of the fight and all the time cast FoL). In average fight I would rate 2% crit around 8mp5 top, about half of what you posted. Also Chestguard has 3 sockets. I would say go Chestguard and socket it according to your taste. After all if crit is all what you need - buy badge chest and socket 10 crit in it.

Also it was pointed out many times, that you can't compare crit and mp5 directly. Best way to look at crit is to calculate your mana pool increase, not treating it as mp5-like stat.

Endoscient · 04/30/08, 8:31 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Haste: 25 haste is worthless. Save your cloak until you have enough haste to reduce cast times by 6-10% IMO, and use your haste set on the fights where you need to cast a lot of HLs or move about a lot. In the mean time use Kharmaa's or Stainless Cloak.

Why? Haste stacks additively. If you have 1% haste you will cast 1% more spells. You get nothing special at 6-10% haste.

Qfactor · 04/30/08, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

Why? Haste stacks additively. If you have 1% haste you will cast 1% more spells. You get nothing special at 6-10% haste.

Aaah the nice thing about %. 150sec of casting fol for example, 1% haste gives you 101,01 casts increase of 1,01 %. 10% haste gives you 111.11 casts. a increase of 11,1%. Hast becomes more vauable when you got more of if (up to a certain point). Also a 1% short cast on move fight doesn;'t help much while a 10% actually can make a differnce. Same with topping clothies up.

marco016 · 04/30/08, 8:59 AM

After a few tries in Twins, I found that the fight has a hugely incredible damage. ( We kill the lady first)
The equips with haste are very suitable for maintaining the hp and provide a high efficiency of healing. Just for advice, I think the paladins stack to +cri must get some equips with haste or you will feel the difficulty in this fight ...

Endoscient · 04/30/08, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by Qfactor

Aaah the nice thing about %. 150sec of casting fol for example, 1% haste gives you 101,01 casts increase of 1,01 %. 10% haste gives you 111.11 casts. a increase of 11,1%. Hast becomes more vauable when you got more of if (up to a certain point). Also a 1% short cast on move fight doesn;'t help much while a 10% actually can make a differnce. Same with topping clothies up.

That is not how haste works. 10% haste means you cast 10% more spells not that your spells cast 10% faster. The formula is CastTime / (1 + haste).

Malleus · 04/30/08, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

Why? Haste stacks additively. If you have 1% haste you will cast 1% more spells. You get nothing special at 6-10% haste.

OK, 1% haste isn't worthless per se, but it is only a trivial increase, not worth sacrificing for. I was using [Man'kin'do's Belt] and [Brooch of Nature's Mercy] for a while. The only change it made to my healing stats was to reduce my overheal - while simultaneously increasing everyone else's, as the reduction was caused by my heals getting in first when there were multiple healers on the same target. When you reach the point where HL goes off in 1.8s with Light's Grace, though, that's negating a lot of time lost adjusting position as well as more than trivially upping your HPS while casting.

(Incidentally, this renders specious the argument that you can't get a run speed increase anywhere but Boar's Speed or crappy gems/spec. For all positioning purposes other than getting out of the fire, all speed increases are equivalent. If it takes you 1.8 seconds to get into position and 2 seconds to cast HL, you won't land the heal any faster than someone who takes 2 seconds to get into position and 1.8s to cast HL.)

Palados - I sat down once with my personal crit level and cast ratio on boss fights and worked out that 1% crit was worth 7-8 MP5. The greater part of the regen boost isn't the mana regained through Illumination, it's the fact that every crit you get puts you closer to spending mana on one less spell. It was fiddly, and odds are good I cocked up somewhere in the equations - probably I didn't account sufficiently for additional crit overheal - but I'm not noticing any huge divergences so far. I'd be shocked and surprised to find 1% crit was worth less than 5 MP5.

alcaras · 04/30/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

I am currently working on a Rawr module for Paladin healing.

Yay

If it's any help at all to the Rawr module's development, I wrote a little PHP paladin healing simulator script here:
Alcaras' Paladin Stat Weighting Calculator

Source code is available here: http://subcreation.net/pal/source.php

Palados · 04/30/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Palados - I sat down once with my personal crit level and cast ratio on boss fights and worked out that 1% crit was worth 7-8 MP5. The greater part of the regen boost isn't the mana regained through Illumination, it's the fact that every crit you get puts you closer to spending mana on one less spell. It was fiddly, and odds are good I cocked up somewhere in the equations - probably I didn't account sufficiently for additional crit overheal - but I'm not noticing any huge divergences so far. I'd be shocked and surprised to find 1% crit was worth less than 5 MP5.

Don't forget, cast ratio doesn't mean you keep the heals going non stop. You have latency, you have small breaks in healing due to reposition, etc. What crit does - it increase you effective mana pool by a certain amount (that doesn't depend on your spell sequence). If you want to compare it with mp5, you can do it in two ways.

1. You can divide that extra mana by a fight lenght. So fight length matters as well, even mp5 will matter - the more mp5 you have, the more effective mana you have and thus the more mana you will get back from crit. That is somehow 'best case' scenario when you use your mana fully and thus use full potential of your crit.

2. You can simply look how much mana was returned by crits and then divide it by a fight length. This value will be, actually, lower. But it will show averaged real effectiveness of the crit in this fight. And I assume it is the value you calculated for yourself, since it depend on spell sequence.

Now, if you are in a tank group without SP and shammy and you don't have to heal a lot, your real effectiveness of crit can easily be as bad as 1% = 3-4mp5, while if you are in a SP/shammy group and use your mana till the last bit, it can easily top 8-10mp5 per 1% of crit.

Endoscient · 04/30/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Palados

Don't forget, cast ratio doesn't mean you keep the heals going non stop. You have latency, you have small breaks in healing due to reposition, etc. What crit does - it increase you effective mana pool by a certain amount (that doesn't depend on your spell sequence). If you want to compare it with mp5, you can do it in two ways.

1. You can divide that extra mana by a fight lenght. So fight length matters as well, even mp5 will matter - the more mp5 you have, the more effective mana you have and thus the more mana you will get back from crit. That is somehow 'best case' scenario when you use your mana fully and thus use full potential of your crit.

2. You can simply look how much mana was returned by crits and then divide it by a fight length. This value will be, actually, lower. But it will show averaged real effectiveness of the crit in this fight. And I assume it is the value you calculated for yourself, since it depend on spell sequence.

Now, if you are in a tank group without SP and shammy and you don't have to heal a lot, your real effectiveness of crit can easily be as bad as 1% = 3-4mp5, while if you are in a SP/shammy group and use your mana till the last bit, it can easily top 8-10mp5 per 1% of crit.

Ya, crit scales directly with how much mana you use. So, the more mana support you get from your group/buffs the better crit becomes. Mp5 will provide the same amount of mana regardless.

Zarty · 04/30/08, 2:05 PM

Yeah, I'm not exactly having problems now, it's just I've looted I think two pieces of Tier 5 gear because none of it feels like upgrades (I have the gloves in the bank), so I'm hoping that perhaps I'm missing something. Again, it could just be gear inflation through alternate routes making the rest of T5 gear seem like sidegrades.

My main problem is that I only rerolled to the paladin from my rogue in December, and we've advanced very quickly through T5, so I don't have a lot of alternate gear to play around with, and I don't have a lot of experience on hard fights--everything in T5 feels pretty easy at this point, though we're just about to start working on Vashj.

GBOT vs Chestguard: Chestguard is only giving you about 50 more raw +heal than GBOT would, from a tally of 2000+. 2% crit is worth 1% of your buffed +heal and 15-18 MP5. Rhetorical question: would you take 20 +heal over 10 MP5?

Yeah, but losing the chestguard is going to cost me a lot more than the visible healing if I have to resocket other pieces to keep my meta gem working. I think the sockets are what is pushing it over for me, but I feel like I should have more crit than I do right now. Am I just wrong on that? So many paladins I talk to seem to have a lot more than I do at this gear level, so I feel like I'm missing something.

Losing the meta for something with looser requirements would make things a lot simpler.

Haste: 25 haste is worthless. Save your cloak until you have enough haste to reduce cast times by 6-10% IMO, and use your haste set on the fights where you need to cast a lot of HLs or move about a lot. In the mean time use Kharmaa's or Stainless Cloak.

I have Kharmaa's and Red Riding Hood in the bank, but like I said, until recently I was way low on +heal, so I was sacrificing MP5 to eke out some more +heal anywhere I could. I'm not convinced 25 haste is worthless though, in the same way that +1 heal is not worthless. The difference is likely not visible, but it's there.

Trinkets: the first thing you need to do is grab an Essence of the Martyr, as it's better than either trinket you have currently. I'd probably use Scarab of the Infinite Cycle as well, or Tome if I were worried about regen. Both trinkets are acceptable in most places that will take MasterCard. I'll go on record as saying I do not like the Pendant, but that's a matter of personal choice; I can see where it would be valuable.

Thanks, I forgot to mention that I've been thinking about picking up an Essence now that I'm not desperately hurting for gear and spending my badges on other slots. I've been struggling with parting with the 40 int more than anything, since it's about 0.5% crit and 11 healing in addition to the bigger mana pool. I'll probably pick it up and play around with it tonight--I think I have enough badges.

Malleus · 04/30/08, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zarty

My main problem is that I only rerolled to the paladin from my rogue in December, and we've advanced very quickly through T5, so I don't have a lot of alternate gear to play around with, and I don't have a lot of experience on hard fights--everything in T5 feels pretty easy at this point, though we're just about to start working on Vashj.

*nod*

That's as I expected. You're in a good place right now, so don't worry about it. You have several pieces of badge loot that are meant to plug gaps in people not quite ready for T6 content, and the rest of your stuff is reasonable. If you're 5/6 3/4 and not having trouble with dying tanks or going OOM, I'd say that at worst you'll be stretched by Vashj and Kael. I don't believe for a second that you won't suffice for them.

Yeah, but losing the chestguard is going to cost me a lot more than the visible healing if I have to resocket other pieces to keep my meta gem working.

Less than you think. Get a Royal Shadowsong Amethyst in your belt and an 11 heal/5 Int in your necklace and you'll be able to lose the Chestguard without deactivating your IED. You'll lose 20 heal more, but gain a bit in MP5 and crit.

Your best upgrade at the minute is probably the [Enamelled Disc of Mojo]. If you can get that and slap a 5 Int/2 MP5 gem in it, you'll be in excellent shape - more regen, more +heal, slightly more crit and it'll let you use GBOT without regemming.

So many paladins I talk to seem to have a lot more than I do at this gear level, so I feel like I'm missing something.

You're suffering from gearing up via PVP and badges, is all. For the most part, badge loot is missing vital stats for PVE. It's not meant to provide a complete outfit, just to fill a few holes so you don't have to spend weeks grinding for the loot needed to progress. PVP gear all overloads on Stamina and resilience at the expense of longevity. They both lack good sockets.

Also, don't be obsessed with wearing plate all over. It's not until T6 loot that we start getting decent amounts of crit, MP5 and +heal on the same piece of gear. At T5, Shaman's mail generally has more +heal, MP5, Stamina and Intellect than our plate does, and it often has better sockets too. All it loses is crit, which is found in sufficient quantity on the plate gear.

Thanks, I forgot to mention that I've been thinking about picking up an Essence now that I'm not desperately hurting for gear and spending my badges on other slots. I've been struggling with parting with the 40 int more than anything, since it's about 0.5% crit and 11 healing in addition to the bigger mana pool.

The Essence is a flat +84 heal up front and the proc is worth 50 more if you use it every time it's off CD. That's worth more than the crit and the 660 mana over the course of a fight. Until you're clearing BT, then apart form corner cases where regen is needed Essence is for my money the second best trinket a Holy Paladin can wear - the best, if you're not an Alchemist.

Palados · 05/01/08, 7:13 AM

Well, with high crit % Karathress trink is good too, but I doubt you can get it when your guild DPS still need it. Also, to make essence more viable, macro it with FoL/HL usage. It will be used each CD then. With essence, remedy activated (they can be used in the same time) and my ring proc I could have over +3.1k heal. Though it's very rare, but it's fun

.

By the way, I use Zul'jin mail over both chestguard and GBoT, that haste is very nice. Sometimes I equip Chestguard (Council fight on some assignements), but almost never use GBoT lately. It can be situationally better than chestguard, but all in all I would rate [Hauberk of the Empire's Champion] >> [Chestguard of Hidden Purpose] >= [Glowing Breastplate of Truth]. Also, you may consider [Ecclesiastical Cuirass] that is more or less equivalent to Archimonde drop [Savior's Grasp]