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Old 06/10/08, 2:42 PM   #1516
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by pope master View Post
Get rid of the spell hit gems. It doesn't do you nearly as much good as straight up stam, straight up spell damage or the epic gem combining the two.
As I understand it, the rule of thumb is to never use a gem that does not have stamina, and to never socket anything except straight stamina unless you specifically want the socket bonus. If you are shooting for a socket bonus, then you want [Solid Star of Elune] in Blue sockets, [Glowing Nightseye] in red sockets, and [Enduring Talasite] in Yellow sockets. (Or, use their epic equivalents.)

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Old 06/10/08, 2:46 PM   #1517
SpaceDrake
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Monk
 
Shadow Council
Originally Posted by gogandantes
Oh god halp
Yeah, spell hit is worthless. Slap some more stamina on that madness. Ditto the spelldam/stam gems, just go straight Stam in a few of those. 400+ before applying Superior Wizard Oil is way more than enough for up to, like, Tier 6 content.

Beyond that you look very solid gearwise, although you could use a little more adjustment to your talent build. I would drop Vindication and Improved Judgment entirely and put that in Anticipation; taking Anticipation puts less of a stress on your gear for +defense and allows you to stack more avoidance or Stamina junk. I'd drop down to 2 points in 1H spec to get that last point in Anticipation and two points into Spell Warding (less damage is less damage, natch, and 4% off of a 2000 damage spell on top of any resists is a lot). Finally, this is something I prefer, I'd go with Improved Devotion Aura instead of Reckoning; Reckoning is a kind of nice threat buff when it goes off, but that doesn't happen too often on a lot of bosses and you should have Devo up when tanking anyway since Retribution doesn't fire if you're uncrushable and 1200 armor is, like, wearing another helmet. It'll put you at nearly 17500 armor, which would be enough for Tier 5 content without trying.

A few things need adjustment (definitely ditch Vindication and Imp Judgment, they do very little for you), but you definitely have the right ideas.

(Also you're wearing the gear I want in a month or two )

(also how does this forum not have words and argh, Lord BEEF has failed us all )

EDIT: Spell hit is worthless, slap some more SPELL HIT on that madness

Last edited by SpaceDrake : 06/10/08 at 3:05 PM.

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Old 06/10/08, 2:47 PM   #1518
Grindolf
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Xavius (EU)
A few quick questions about totems, didn't find any answers through google, searching or common sense (feel free to flame if one of those should have yielded results).

Assuming I can choose, which should I go for, Flametongue or Superior Wizard Oil? Guessing totem is superior for single target and oil for aoe-tanking, but that's just worthless guessing. Also, I'm assuming WF is superior to everything, but is it?

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Old 06/10/08, 3:04 PM   #1519
SpaceDrake
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Monk
 
Shadow Council
Originally Posted by Mavrinac View Post
Hey Spacedrake, I've seen you around on ShC. I think I may have run into that same paladin, and yes, he is wrong.
Turglynn Yeah, The Meddlers maintain a strict "no drama" policy so I'm not going to name names... but if The Person In Question is as militant to other Tankadins as he was to me, I would suspect he's locked horns with a lot of the ShC Tankadin community at one point.

A little off the topic, this little discussion actually raised another question from me for you guys: If you're uncrushable, critical hits are impossible as well as crushing blows, correct? If i'm wrong let me know, but I never really thought about it. Personally, I try to keep 490 def and 102.4% miss/dodge/parry/block.
Technically, yes: if you're uncrushable, you're also uncrittable by fiat regardless of your defense. It's a good idea to maintain 490+, though, since if you slip on the Holy Shield you don't want to be crittable (crushes are bad, but crits are basically wipes, especially on madness like Teron Gorefiend or even Malchezzar) and going up to 490+ gives you +20% mitigation anyway.

Gogandantes, I generally stick to this opening rotation: SoRighteousness(on trash, Wisdom or Light on bosses), Avenger's Shield, Consecrate, Holy Shield, Judgement, SoVengeance, then I repeat this one: Holy Shield, Consecrate, Judgement, SoVengeance. If you can follow that, the rotation's worked quite well for me, so the one you've proposed seems pretty nice.
I sort of go back and forth on SoV. On the one hand, I know that it causes a ton of hate when fully stacked and if you can "seal dance" between it and SoR the bottom falls out on your aggro, but I can never seem to get it to refresh in time to not lose the stack. On the other hand, 1200+ judgment crits give me wood.

Originally Posted by Grindolf
Assuming I can choose, which should I go for, Flametongue or Superior Wizard Oil? Guessing totem is superior for single target and oil for aoe-tanking, but that's just worthless guessing. Also, I'm assuming WF is superior to everything, but is it?
Frankly I always go for my Oil. It's a straight buff to my Holy damage which I know causes double aggro, as opposed to something that may or may not go off. I'd love to see some actual numbers run on it, though.

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Old 06/10/08, 3:13 PM   #1520
Rhaegal
Don Flamenco
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by Grindolf View Post
A few quick questions about totems, didn't find any answers through google, searching or common sense (feel free to flame if one of those should have yielded results).

Assuming I can choose, which should I go for, Flametongue or Superior Wizard Oil? Guessing totem is superior for single target and oil for aoe-tanking, but that's just worthless guessing. Also, I'm assuming WF is superior to everything, but is it?
WF means you don't get WoA, which as I understand it is better for paladin threat than WF--certainly in an AoE tanking situation, but I think even for single-target tanking as well. Also remember that Flametongue and Windfury won't stack, so if you're asking for Flametongue, you won't be asking for WF. Considering WoA will increase Flametongue's damage as well, it's a pretty good combination on a threat-limited fight. Not sure about Weapon Oil, though. Even if the oil doesn't out-threat Flametongue, though, the shaman is (in general) better off dropping a Searing Totem for the extra DPS, assuming no nearby CC.

However, it depends entirely on what your tank group looks like. The difference between WoA and WF for you doesn't even come close to the difference between WF and no WF for a warrior tank, or if any extra rogues/DPS warriors spill over into the MT group in a melee-heavy raid.

Also, to SpaceDrake: Flametongue goes on off every melee hit, so there's no wondering whether or not it will go off. On the other hand, it can be resisted, which isn't the case for all of your holy damage.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

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Old 06/10/08, 3:26 PM   #1521
Mordekhuul
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Warlock
 
Terenas
Originally Posted by dariusii View Post
i've asked a GM in the past and i had a problem with my righteous defence working properly. it was fixed with a patch but he told me that its effected by physical hit rating and not spell hit rating. even though it uses mana, just like holy shield, it is considered a physical hit rating.
I'm not sure if you are asking a question or answering a question that I didn't see looking back over the previous page of posts.

Either way, I'll expand a little.

Druid taunt, Warrior taunt, and Paladin taunt (RD), as you say, benefit only from melee +hit. This was changed many patches ago, as all taunts used to rely on spell hit, making it difficult for warriors, for example, to improve their hit rate on taunt.

However, in all other ways, all three taunt abilities are still treated as a spell. This means that the miss rate on taunt for the three classes is 17% against a level 73 (or boss) opponent, and means that 1% of that can not be done away with, no matter how much you stack +hit.

It also means that you cannot taunt if you are silenced, I believe, even for warriors and druids.

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Old 06/10/08, 4:16 PM   #1522
Arikah
pokazhet lik sveta istina
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Rhaegal View Post
WF means you don't get WoA, which as I understand it is better for paladin threat than WF--certainly in an AoE tanking situation, but I think even for single-target tanking as well. Also remember that Flametongue and Windfury won't stack, so if you're asking for Flametongue, you won't be asking for WF. Considering WoA will increase Flametongue's damage as well, it's a pretty good combination on a threat-limited fight. Not sure about Weapon Oil, though. Even if the oil doesn't out-threat Flametongue, though, the shaman is (in general) better off dropping a Searing Totem for the extra DPS, assuming no nearby CC.

However, it depends entirely on what your tank group looks like. The difference between WoA and WF for you doesn't even come close to the difference between WF and no WF for a warrior tank, or if any extra rogues/DPS warriors spill over into the MT group in a melee-heavy raid.

Also, to SpaceDrake: Flametongue goes on off every melee hit, so there's no wondering whether or not it will go off. On the other hand, it can be resisted, which isn't the case for all of your holy damage.
WoA is most certainly better for aoe tanking, but i am in the belief that WF is better for single target (boss) tanking. WoA when single target tanking will only provide a very small boost to your consecrate and sor/jor, i'm thinking somewhere in the +10 per tick range... WF when it procs gives you an instant ~220 sor (and a small white hit) at the risk of being parried. If i could remember the proc rate of wf with a 1h, i could come up with some math...

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Old 06/10/08, 4:34 PM   #1523
• Chicken
Mod
 
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Gnome Monk
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Windfury totem is 20% chance to proc, and is worse than Wrath of Air even on a single target unless you have really extremely high amounts of spell damage. I made a post about it a while ago right here: http://elitistjerks.com/700443-post4.html

While the math in that post is missing a few key factors, I expect that the amount of spell damage required to make Windfury equal or better would still be far out of reach of what's viable even if you took all factors into account.

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Old 06/10/08, 4:56 PM   #1524
Grindolf
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Xavius (EU)
You misunderstand me. I very often find myself in a situation (ZA in particular) where I just have to let the DPS choose totems. I often outgear the instance and time is money friend, so I just have to accept flametongue totem (caster group) or windfury (melee group). In those two situations, would I be better off just sticking a wizard oil on my weapon? Assuming it's mostly single target of course.

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Old 06/10/08, 5:11 PM   #1525
• Chicken
Mod
 
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Gnome Monk
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Ah, I see.

Flametongue totem is worthless, stick with Wizard Oil; Flametongue totem doesn't benefit from your extra threat from Righteous Fury, meaning it's threat is simply equal to the damage it does, and the damage it does isn't high.

Windfury vs. Wizard Oil is a different matter entirely however. Wizard Oil is 21 TPS, Meaning you'd need 106 TPS from your Seal of Righteousness + Auto-Attack to make Windfury better. 106 TPS is lower than the base TPS values of Seal of Righteousness + Auto-Attack however. In other words, Windfury is better than having a Wizard Oil.

Or to put it very simply: Wrath of Air + Wizard Oil > Windfury > Wizard Oil > Flametongue

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Old 06/10/08, 5:30 PM   #1526
Meglomaniac
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Frostmane (EU)
Reckoning

Hello,
I'm considering a respec that involves Reckoning. The reason I would do this is to get a slight increase in threat, to compete with my t6 geared guildmates dps.
I consulted other paladin tanks on my realm about this, and I was told that reckoning procs more parries. Now, on trash i don't mind being hit more, but i'm also tanking the first Sunwell boss (wich we have downed with me maintanking in rotation) and that's one fight were you can't mess about with being hit more then usual, I have scrolled through the forums, but I have yet found an answer to my questions.
Anyone have experience with Reckoning build in? (1/5 or 5/5)
Did you find out that it triggers more parries, thus taking more damage in return?
Your personal opinion about Reckoning?

Thanks in advance

Last edited by Meglomaniac : 06/11/08 at 5:15 AM.

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Old 06/10/08, 6:14 PM   #1527
Mordekhuul
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Warlock
 
Terenas
Originally Posted by Meglomaniac View Post
Hello,
I'm considering a respec that involves Reckoning. The reason I would do this is to get a slight increase in threat, to compete with my t6 geared guildmates dps.
I consulted other paladin tanks on my realm about this, and I was told that reckoning procs more parries. Now, on trash i don't mind being hit more, but i'm also tanking the first Sunwell boss (wich we have downed with me maintanking in rotation) and that's one fight were you can't mess about with being hit more then usual, I have scrolled through the forums, but I have yet found an answer to my questions.
Anyone have experience with Reckoning build in? (1/5 or 5/5)
Did you find out that it triggers more parries, thus taking more damage in return?
Your personal opinion about Reckoning?
Here is a post I made a good while ago on my experience with Reckoning on a Void Reaver kill. I don't address parries, as I was more interested in the threat benefits on a fight like VR where the boss hits like he is wielding a wet noodle.

It proc'd 7 times for 33 extra hits in a 352s fight, and was worth around 50 TPS for me. I suppose that would mean 33 extra chances for a boss to parry my attack and shorten or rush his next attack, over an almost 6 minute fight.

p.s. Check Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Class Mechanics for good tips on forum posts. EJ discourages post signing, and as much fun as seeing your name in the banhammer forum would be (I love that forum), its good to follow the rules. Friendly tip, and cheers.

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Old 06/10/08, 10:36 PM   #1528
Xequecal
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Khadgar
Does anyone have any advice for tanking Bloodboil? When he's on me, and the debuff stack is high and I need to lose aggro, it's very hard for the other tanks to get him off when he's bashing against Holy Shield/BoSanct so fast. But if I don't cast Holy Shield, he crushes me and that plus a high debuff stack gets me killed. Then when he's on the other tanks, I just can't keep up with them. I run out of mana in 30 seconds trying to generate threat on him. I've tried stepping in for some cleaves to take extra damage, but that just gives me a debuff stack of 4-6 to start out with, and starting from 6 debuffs when he switches target to you is suicide.

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Old 06/10/08, 10:48 PM   #1529
Finkum
Don Flamenco
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gundrak
I would have thought that as HS has twice as many charges per 5s when compared to a warrior's shield block, parry hasting is not such a concern for paladin tanks, except for the small downtime between HS refreshes. Additionally, warriors will typically be interweaving instant attacks (sunder armor, devastate, revenge) between white hits, which means that warriors will have significantly more chances to be parried than a paladin with or without Reckoning (although Reckoning is obviously a lot "burstier").

This is not to say that Reckoning is a no-brainer - you always have to weigh the survivability cost, however minor, against the threat benefit - but it's worth bearing in mind that any fight where you feel Reckoning is too dangerous will be even more so for an equivalently geared warrior tank.

Disclaimer: My prot pally has yet to tank a raid boss, so take my opinion with a grain of salt :P

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Old 06/10/08, 11:20 PM   #1530
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
@Meglomaniac: Mathcrafters over at the Tankadin forums derived that the most bang for your Reckoning buck comes at 3/5 points; the last 2 points don't yield significantly better uptime.

I've tried a Reckoning build and found that Parry-gibbing was never really an issue. Our only Parry-able attack is autoattack, compared to a Warrior's/Druid's autoattack plus a special every GCD.

Without Reckoning, we're Parried generally half as much as any other tank, but we're only 1 expertise behind a Warrior (and 5 expertise ahead of a Druid). So no, I wouldn't worry about Reckoning's extra attacks killing you.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

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