I think the best solution for RD is still to have it behave 2 different ways:

Targeting Enemy -> Taunt that single target
Targeting Friendly -> Taunt 3 off that friendly

Simple, elegant, doesn't change how most of us were used to using RD anyway (with a ToT macro for multi-target taunting).

I would argue that, by definition, any fight which allows taunting does not require you to ride the MT for threat.

Imagine Nalorakk with hurtful strikes instead of lashes. Of course, that requirement hasn't actually been seen, and riding the MT's threat when you're taunt-bouncing is borderline trivial, but it still doesn't make the concept redundant.

Has anyone noticed that Divine Guardian is buggy when you put up Divine Shield/Avenging Wrath? Since AW has been added back to the Forbearance clock it seems the talent has gotten very buggy.

Also I'm slightly miffed that AW is now tied to Divine Protection through Forbearance, so blowing our Threat booster and shield wall is now a two minute window of one another. I hope all these "fixes" to Ret will have "fixes" for Protection by the time we hit 80 or we might find ourselves in the same place we were at the start of BC.

They seem to be aware of the problem. It would be nice if they fixed it sooner than later.

While, admittedly, we are more vulnerable to silence effects than say, a warrior, I agree that we are severely much less vulnerable to disarm effects. I play on the horde side, so I always have Arcane Torrent, and this is a boon amongst boons. Silencing everything around me while returning a percentage of my mana is amazing, and has saved me in many fights.

The disarm effect as it works now though, can be rather evil. While I would still have Consecrate and Holy Shield, since I switched my weapon to a DPS weapon, a lot of threat would be lacking since I couldn't cast Hammer of the Righteous. So while we are less vulnerable, we are still prone to lose aggro should that situation arise.

Similairly, druids cannot be disarmed (correct me if I'm wrong on that), and if a warrior is they still have Shield Slam as well. So disarm hurts everything but doesn't necessarily destroy it.

Disarm is much more irritating in my opinion, the way paladins are now, seeing as how I would say a large portion of my threat is generated from Hammer of the Righteous.

We get shield slam on the way to 80. With the 71 points now, would seal of command be worth talenting perhaps? Something like This.

While Dippyskoodlez's build would be interesting, and definitely something to experiment with, I've found the Seal of Corruption (Or I believe it is Vengeance on the Alliance side) is fantastic for AoE tanking, which is the basis of paladins anyway. Being able to switch targets and still have yet another Holy damage HoT on the mob is just fantastic.

Another good reason to use Corruption is the fact that, if we DO get silenced or disarmed, that's yet another way that we are generating threat by just standing there. It makes it very easy to stack if you get Reckoning, and for some reason I believe I've noticed Hammer of the Righteous possibly adding it on to the mob (looking further into it, if you've noticed, tell me what you've found.)

Seal of Command would definitely be a neat idea, but I think I will stay with Corruption. Even the judgment effect is generally more stable, seeing as how I don't stun people very often at all.

I targetted the socomm talenting more for single target like a boss, because after you get that 5 stacks built up, keeping the SoV active seems like a waste. Further melee attacks only do like 12-14 damage, whereas something like SoR or SoCom would continue to do damage making the most of reckoning. SoComm with the proc glyph, might go well with a high DPS weapon, primarily since it can crit. There's so much debuff wise that increases crit, we would probably get a decent bit out of it.

I do believe HoTR is adding SoV(SoCorr for BE's) to multiple mobs, which is awesome, and I hope it never changes. Its one excellent way of making use of the seal. It would be beautiful to see holy shield taken off the GCD or as someone posted earlier, the 30s holy shield duration with 8s cooldown. That was a beautiful idea. Right now I just strongly dislike our rotations.

Shield of Righteousness is not locked out by disarm effects. It IS locked out by silence, and probably also by holy school locking.

Divine Shield is not affected by most silence effects.

Silences are nasty, but not game-breaking for prot with Crushing Blows gone, unless there is a perpetual silence around the boss. Most bosses seem to be going with HUGE reductions in spell casting speed instead of silence as the "don't stand in melee" mechanic, so...no worries anyway? I mean, if they roll Mother Shahraz out again in Ulduar, I'll start yelling with everybody else. I think they see how irritating that was, though.

Hammer of the Righteous and Judgement both stack Seal of Corruption/Vengeance.

Seal of Command in my tanking gear would be of limited use, I'm fairly certain - is its AP scaling really high enough to outstrip Vengeance/Corruption/Righteousness with a 1h weapon, especially considering Seals of the Pure as an option? Prot Paladins still have almost no crit - SoR/SoV/SoC not being able to crit has no impact on it. I'd rather have regular threat.


The 20% nerf to Seal of Vengeance disappoints me. My level 70 threat was not higher than the other tanks - it was mostly competitive, but not exceptional. This nerf would make sense to me if I were, oh, level 75-80, where SoR makes threat a complete joke. I'm not level 75, though - I'm level 70. I'm missing my (by far) most mana-efficient single-target threat skill, my highest TPS skill, my highest burst threat skill...they're all the same skill, and it shows up at level 75. I was destroying most of the other tanks in Naxx at 80 (usually), but I'm barely keeping up to them in BT/Sunwell.

This is bad, so bad for us, need to be put in physical skill, thanks for testing it, i never got the time/mobs to test it in beta.

It's affected by school lock, and to be viable for holy paladin to be a saving ass mechanics need to be possible to fire it when receiving a silence when one of your team or yourself are near to die.

But you get already Anub'Rekhan in naxx where you get silenced if not perfectly running or you get some lag, and so you stay in a very dangerous position when restart tanking with some second of impossible to get up Holy Shield and so on.

I'm still using SoR + [Libram of Divine Purpose] and i find me very competitive in Sunwell too, but if you see my gear is like all the other TPS warrior tank get good hit rating and expertise to never miss TPS, i loose the highest bursts in TPS generation but it keep steady and never go under 1,5k TPS.
The strange at the moment is, why sometimes i get deflect on Hammer of the Righteous ? in raid i'm melee hit capped so strange this, and is a loose of allot of threat.

'Deflect' replaces 'Parry' on the melee attack table when you're using a pseudo-ranged attack; i.e. Hammer of the Righteous. You can most likely mitigate this the way you also mitigate Parry: Expertise.

No, in last night's Kara badge run JoW was ticking just fine for me. As advertised, it ticks half as hard as my BoS, and was roughly equivalent to Replenishment over the course of the run as far as total mana gained.

1.5k tps? I'd be pretty upset if that's what I was doing.

We did our normal 1hr 30min Sunwell clear last night. I tanked all of it, despite being considered a holy paladin for main spec purposes, and I was a bit upset about the difference in my threat compared to pre 3.0.3.

Basically after 3.0, I was doing around 3k TPS omen reading, and I could hit 4k TPS omen reading on Brut. Either way, last night I felt like I was struggling to do 2200-2500 TPS and in my guild that's not enough. I had quite a bit of threat frustration last night. Ret paladins ripping like crazy, offtanks passing me super fast. Just not what it was =/

I'm going to assume once we get Shield it will be fine. Anybody else worried about tps in comparison to other tanks?

Yes we got the nerf bat on us too, and we're the lowest TPS single target now.
But we're lacking talents point for some more TPS talent at the moment.

I didn't have much of an issue last night through Black Temple and Mount Hyjal. Each boss, I was considerably 40-50% threat lead over the second... just as I was in 3.0.2. The real test will be tonight when we do Sunwell, I'll have to see if my threat changes any in there. Doubtful though.

"We are probably going to modify a deep Holy talent or two to add additional damage (J of the Pure maybe). That’s pretty safe. We’re not hugely worried about Prot, because there’s this thing they can do with their shields that can do some pretty sweet burst damage…. "-Ghostcrawler


I think blizzard isn't too worried about 70 threat currently, and more worried about our 80 threat uncluding shield slam. I agree, though, our threat right now isn't too bad. Most raid mobs are demon/undead right now especially, so it should be OK for another week. If anything it IS a tad low, but shield of the righteous should equalize this. Only worry I have is fitting it into our rotation, the previously mentioned holy shield duration change would be amazing.

I can't say I've noticed any difference in my threat from 3.03 compared to 3.02. Most of the things affecting us were hotfixed in prior to the patch being released, the only thing that's changed is that the tooltips have been updated to match as well.

The only thing I find I keep doing is trying to use Hammer of Wrath when something hits 35% while it's at 20% now, but that isn't making a large difference in threat (Though it is making a difference in how easily I can snipe Shield Orb kills but that's something else).

I'm not sure if the Judgement of Wisdom changes were hotfixed in though, so you might see a threat reduction when using Judgement of Wisdom. Judgement of Light still procs as much as it used to, and still heals for as much as it used to, so is still just as good for threat if it's not overhealing. It doesn't proc for casters yet though that I've noticed, I guess that'll be implemented later, much like removing Avenging Wrath from a full 2 minute Forbearance again.

Apologies if this has been touched on before, but today some buddies and I tested and found that warrior's Vigilance and BoSanctuary do indeed stack their damage reductions.

The test was rather simple; we just had a prot pally, prot warrior, and a random mage come together. Put vigilance on the mage, pally+mage duel to see how much damage consecration does. Put BoSanctuary on the mage in addition to vigilance, see how much consecration does. If anyone wants to test differently, that'd be great.

The implication is that, in scenarios where the main tank is likely to get killed, you can bring in a protection warrior who puts his Vigilance on the main tank, but is otherwise there as a DPSer. The caveat is that it will reduce the main tank's threat output by 10%; however, the dpsing prot warrior will almost certainly be in place to pick up tanking should the MT fall, and watching threat isn't exactly something new for DPS.

EDIT: clarity

While this is true, the biggest changes are HoW as you mentioned, and AW causing Forbearance. The only fights HoW really impact are ones with threat drops (noticed it most on Supremus last night), but the AW change is pretty massive. Basically, if I need to care about my survivability at all, my threat is going to suck, otherwise I run the risk of needing DP and not having it. This was very noticeable on Illidan flame detail, running with only 6 healers and the 2nd flame tank was an arms warrior in a FR suit. Healing was scarce, so I had to do everything I could to reduce the amount of healing required. I had 4-5 DPS riding my ass in threat the entire time (yeah, only 30 seconds, but still) where this was a total non-issue in 3.0.2 when I could pop wings and DP at the same time. Yes, this is purely anecdotal, but the difference was incredibly obvious.

So basically, add 1 vote for them fixing the DS/DP/AW fiasco they've created for PvE tank pallies because they wanted to fix an issue with PvP ret pallies. Knee-jerk design decisions don't tend to sit well.

While the change to Forbearance does suck, let's not blow this out of perspective. We happily were using wings before 3.0 when we didn't have a shield wall and we could tank almost everything in the game. You can do it now too. Our total mitigation has gone up, bosses hit for less and so forth.

You can still pop your wings because you didn't have a shield wall before 3.0 and you were doing just fine then!

Yeah. Keep in mind also that frequently you'll be earmarking DP for use at some predetermined point in the fight -- an enrage or whatever. (In fact, that was one thing I often pointed out back when people were comparing AD to SW.) In that case, if you know you'll be using DP, say, 3 minutes into the fight, then you can go ahead and use AW on the pull without worry.

Sadly I'm not that far into the raid experience (BT/Hyjal) I have only raided up to ZA, so my experience is only up to that and heroic dungeons. So, I probably will sound inexperienced.

I, being in an undergeared guild, haven't really noticed that much of a drop-off either. But then again, my standards for where I need to be as a tank are a bit lower than where you all are.

I haven't found myself using AW a whole lot. I'm looking into working it into my "routine" a little bit more but it hasn't become an absolute necessity as of yet. But we'll see. The forbearance change hasn't effected me that much in my case. I am very much looking forward to our shield slam.

As for working it into our rotation, in all honesty it's probably going to replace Consecrate for me until there are a huge amount of mobs that I need to be tanking. The spell is rarely used for me now as it is. It doesn't seem mana efficient for me to use that when I could just be using my HotR. I am very eager to hear how this is different for high end raiding though. So what are your thoughts on rolling off Consecrate in your normal tanking rotation?