Protection and you! - Page 11

g0dsmacked · 10/29/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

There's definitely situations I can see that build being powerful. I'm pretty sure that if you don't need to aggro up to three adds solidly at any point in your tanking career, you'll be getting more threat out of Sanctity Aura; and that for a lower mana cost as well. For raiding in particular Avenger's Shield isn't really needed outside of a very few fights in-game; I'd hate to be without it for tanking at Shade of Akama for example, though I'm certain I could manage without with some effort.

The downside really is in the fact that you lose Ardent Defender and Reckoning; Ardent Defender is most likely not worth speccing for if you can only put 2 points in it. I was thinking in this direction myself: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (If you take out the points in Ret, get Avenger's Shield, and put the 'basic 20' in Holy you'll get the build I'm probably taking next patch)

From a pure threat point of view in any situation this build is going to be pretty strong. It'll actually sport ~19% more damage (and thus threat) on practically everything you'll face while raiding. I'd say it's also got good survivability in a single hard-hitting target situation. It'll be less good than a build with Ardent Defender at taking damage in a situation with a lot of smaller faster attacks though, and it also lacks Reckoning which is a nice threat boost in a situation in which you're tanking a lot of mobs and are also expected to outaggro single target DPS on a specific mob.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my current build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my 2.3 build ( granted the tool tips havent changed to reflect, but thats where the points will be)

Gromweld · 10/30/07, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Regan_

Talking about builds, I would like to reintroduce the discussion of what would be the new MT paladin build in replacement of the old 49/12 variations pre-2.3.

For now I'm thinking on going with this:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

I plan on going with the following for 2.3:

Unleashed Gaming

This is primarily an MT build, designed for max mitigation/avoidance. Reckoning will be missed, as will Guardian's Favor.

Daeren · 10/30/07, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Gromweld

...you know, I had never actually gone through the parses for exactly how much our warriors block for in "normal" tanking gear. I was basing my numbers off of a comment from our MT about having a "threat" set that gets his Block Value past 700. Since Block Value is a much more important threat-generation stat for Warriors I figured that wasn't much higher than his normal.

Yet again I stand corrected - I block for 420 in my high-avoidance gear, where our MT blocks for 441.

So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.

From going through your parses, it seems like you ate one shear on your first kill. That might make it a bit harder at least.

On damage taken, your warrior took a maximum of 11561 damage, you a maximum of 10872. He does have 4,7% more avoidance, which may explain why he's easier to heal, but it stops around that. You did not take 1k more damage per hit. Actually, on average hits taken, you had 500 less damage taken compared to him per attack on average.

So, don't knock yourself for this, it's great to see fellow tankadins achieving stuff like this.

jere · 10/30/07, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

For figuring out the coefficient of the direct damage proc from Seal of Vengeance at 5 stacks, could someone post some numbers on the damage it deals with completely no spell damage? Preferably try it with a few different speed weapons.

Edit: For clarity, I'd like the numbers from patch 2.3; not live.

Chicken, I didn't see where anyone responded to you on this, so forgive me if I missed it. I have been testing on the PTR and have found the Direct Damage portion of SoV to be defined by roughly:

weapon_speed*10 + (weapon_speed/90)*spell_dmg.

I spent some time testing various weapons in SMV (to avoid zone buffs) and without 1H spec.

I posted the numbers I got here:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Seal of Vengeance Redux

Just scroll down on page 3 to my table where I posted my results (and what I expected to see via the equation I determined).

I had 2 weapons (a 1.6 speed and a 3.6 speed) that had no spell dmg and found that the direct damage SoV did was exactly equal to weapon_speed*10 (so a 1.6 speed would do 16, etc.)

I need to test with weapons of other speeds more, but this is what I have found.

Also, somewhere before you asked about 1H spec and SoV. 1H spec does increase SoV damage. I found that out testing a few patches back, so I don't have any hard data, but I can probably come up with some values if you want. I have a guest over for the week though, so it will probably be a week before I can sit down and test again.

Hustle · 10/30/07, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Wouldn't 10% str and 15% seal/judgement of righteousness damage deal more threat than 5% damage via 1h weapon spec, assuming you can drop the points from parry and still be crush immune via blocks? (note that being crush immune via blocks rather than via parry actually deals a bit more threat as well).

As for the rotation, remember that when redoubt is active you can actually let your holy shield wait for a concentration+judge+reseal. Depending on what portion of your threat is from holy shield blocks this might be a TPS loss, although I highly doubt it after glancing again at the OP's TPS from spell damage values. Figuring out redoubt's uptime to calculate actual TPS is a big problem, but figuring out whether you gain or lose tps by delaying HS when redoubt is active shouldn't be.

A poor choice given that our white damage is a very very small source of threat, and 10% strength when you only have 130ish is a very minuscule amount of block value. Imp SoR is more for Holy Paladins who want to solo farm as holy, not for protection. The 15% bonus occurs on the base damage of the ability, the effect is not calculated with your spell damage, which means it doesn't scale at all with your spell damage/gear level.

Also, dropping points from parry like you mentioned is definitely not something I would recommend for any tank. Avoidance is a wonderful thing, and while I prefer the consistency of blocks as a tank and as a healer, it's not something you can overlook gaining 1% avoidance for 1 talent point.

Hustle · 10/30/07, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by jere

I had 2 weapons (a 1.6 speed and a 3.6 speed) that had no spell dmg and found that the direct damage SoV did was exactly equal to weapon_speed*10 (so a 1.6 speed would do 16, etc.)

Interesting find. To counter this, I've been using a 1.8 speed weapon to tank with since I hit 70, and since they added the extra damage component when a 5 stack is present I've never seen anything higher than maybe 15 on the upper end of non-partial resists unless Crusader is judged.

I will pay super close attention to this tonight, but I am almost 100% certain I've never seen anything close to 18 even though with my weapon that should be the approximate value. I'd check a WWS for you, but I believe the name of the extra damage is Seal of Vengeance, which wouldn't do anything for us I'm afraid.

flyingtoastr · 10/30/07, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Hustle

Interesting find. To counter this, I've been using a 1.8 speed weapon to tank with since I hit 70, and since they added the extra damage component when a 5 stack is present I've never seen anything higher than maybe 15 on the upper end of non-partial resists unless Crusader is judged.

I will pay super close attention to this tonight, but I am almost 100% certain I've never seen anything close to 18 even though with my weapon that should be the approximate value. I'd check a WWS for you, but I believe the name of the extra damage is Seal of Vengeance, which wouldn't do anything for us I'm afraid.

If he did this testing on the 2.3 PTR it would be more damage than we are seeing on live right now.

From the latest patch notes:
"Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased."

Cathela · 10/30/07, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Hustle

The 15% bonus occurs on the base damage of the ability, the effect is not calculated with your spell damage, which means it doesn't scale at all with your spell damage/gear level.

That was fixed some time ago, actually. Imp. SoR affects total SoR and JoR damage now.

Also, dropping points from parry like you mentioned is definitely not something I would recommend for any tank. Avoidance is a wonderful thing, and while I prefer the consistency of blocks as a tank and as a healer, it's not something you can overlook gaining 1% avoidance for 1 talent point.

If you're regularly in MT type situations, sure.

But when facing a situation where tank mitigation is the overriding concern, most guilds won't be using a paladin tank anyway. So for a lot of people there are good reasons for skipping the 10+ point sink in Ret entirely (once crushes are no longer an issue, of course).

Personally I love being able to put Imp. LoH on any of our tanks without sacrificing the mana bar of one of our holy paladins.

Fiola · 10/30/07, 1:14 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

If he did this testing on the 2.3 PTR it would be more damage than we are seeing on live right now.

From the latest patch notes:
"Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased."

The coefficient seems to be (1.1% of +dmg + 10) * weapon speed.

[Paladin] Ability Mechanics

If I remember correctly, the Live coefficient is around 1% * weapon speed, so the buff is the addition of base damage and a coefficient tweak.

jere · 10/31/07, 7:01 AM

Originally Posted by Fiola

The coefficient seems to be (1.1% of +dmg + 10) * weapon speed.

[Paladin] Ability Mechanics

If I remember correctly, the Live coefficient is around 1% * weapon speed, so the buff is the addition of base damage and a coefficient tweak.

I think the only difference is the added base bonus damage (which seems to be weapon_speed*10 so far as I test it). The spell damage coefficient seems unchanged between live and the PTR.

1.1% should be about right. I use 1/90, which happens to be 1.11111111~%, as that seems to be pretty accurate for the results I have seen.

And I am indeed testing on the PTR at the moment for those who were asking before, I have just put off testing for the week till my guests leave (I am guessing they don't want to see me hit demons for 2 hours at a time all week while I record data

)

dakalro · 10/31/07, 7:42 AM

Even though I'm not a paladin, is there any at least decent reason to skip AD, I mean at 23-24k hp, which shouldn't be too hard for any t6 geared prot that's 8-8.5k hp threshold, providing, if not leaped, up to what, 16% extra DR when going from full to 0hp? Looks like a huge bonus imo, esp for trash or bosses that hit a bit under 9k or so.

• Chicken · 10/31/07, 8:31 AM

The only reason to skip it is if it prevents you from getting other talents your builds needs. E.G. I'll be skipping it because I want at least Illumination for healing purposes; some paladins will be skipping it because they want to maximize threat by picking up Sanctity Aura.

The downside of taking full Ardent Defender now is that it'll basically put you on at least 43 points in Protection, thus prohibiting you from picking up any of the good talents in the other two trees. If that isn't an issue for you though, you should definitely pick it up.

deadpaladin · 10/31/07, 12:34 PM

Hi ive recently respeced from Holy to prot and have been trauling the thread for builds.

ive seen a few differant ideas on the way to build and for differant purposes, so im stumped for how to play it.

Im intending to be a main tank and have pretty much been tanking away spamming conc and shield reserving wrath for when/if i lose agro on someone. (right def is a pain to use will ahve to try that macro )

current build is pretty much prot going for int bonus of holy and parry of ret. gear is still a work in progress

My Profile

Im thinking of respeccing to loose Dev aura and gain reckoning as well as shuffling a few points to be more along the lines of other prot builds ive seen, but considering to try for imp retir aura.

is this wise? Also could you point me towards any build/gear layouts so i can have a see which would be more suitable for me?

• Snowy · 10/31/07, 12:58 PM

The int talent is pretty much 5 wasted talent points, consider how much extra max mana that really gives you. There's your 5 points for reckoning right there. Having said that, why 5/5 Devo Aura? It's pretty unlikely you'll ever be running it right? You should be having Retribution Aura running if you're tanking. So switch those 5 points from Imp Devo Aura into 5/5 1-H Specialization. Read the tooltip carefully -- it increases ALL damage done while a 1-H weapon is increased. This is a strict 5% increase in your threat, so you really want to have this.

The points in Ret are fine, although you may want to either drop 2 points in Stoicism or Guardian's Favor to pick up Improved Judgement.

My paladin runs with a typical 49/12 cookie cutter spec which works extremely well for 5 mans and Karazhan. That would be the following build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

kalbear · 10/31/07, 1:25 PM

There's your 5 points for reckoning right there. Having said that, why 5/5 Devo Aura? It's pretty unlikely you'll ever be running it right? You should be having Retribution Aura running if you're tanking.

I've seen this elsewhere, and I'm a bit baffled. Is retribution aura really that much worth it over devotion aura when you're talking karazhan and heroic tanking? I realize that as you get in gear progression armor value becomes less and less valuable per point, but early on that +1000 armor value has to be at least worth 1.5% damage mitigation, and that sounds like it's worth more than the threat generated from retribution.

Or as this article points out, while you get diminishing returns from armor mitigation in terms of damage prevented, you don't get diminishing returns in terms of your life expectancy as armor increases. I would think that until you're AC capped, more armor is always better.