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10/31/07, 1:30 PM
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#166
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Gorgonnash
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Originally Posted by Snowy
You should be having Retribution Aura running if you're tanking
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Agreeing with most of your point, however, I have never run retribution aura in a raid main tank setting. Sure, if you've got a holy paladin running it for you, that's fine. Either way, Improved devotion aura is not worth 5 points. I would have to say the preffered MT build over at maintankadin is:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000
Come 2.3 it will change somewhat. I imagine the points in reckoning will move to combat expertise, with a little more flavor between kings, spell warding, and the new ret talent changes (pursiot of justice and imp jotc).
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10/31/07, 1:34 PM
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#167
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Turalyon (EU)
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Dev aura was just for making damage reductions on low threat groups tbh.
ive not tanked a heroic yet since most ppl arent interested in either a) pala tanks or b) waiting for threat to gen and attacking immediately
But yep i rarely use dev aura when im in a competant group taht can cause some real threat.
I like the look of that build was concerned i was wasting the 5 points in holy, but now its confirmed im happy
Also i see your only like 5 points off im pretri aura.
is it worth dropping precision and spel warding to gain the extra threat gen off retri aura? or is the 4% spell damage reduction and 3% melle crit worth more than on hit damage of 39 as id presume over a instance/raid id get more damage of the ret aura than the 3% crit would proc if taking mass agro.
As i say im new to tanking so might be a tad slow with concepts 
Last edited by deadpaladin : 10/31/07 at 1:40 PM.
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10/31/07, 1:36 PM
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#168
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Jaedenar (EU)
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b) waiting for threat to gen and attacking immediately
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Smells like perfect paladin tank material then!
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10/31/07, 1:36 PM
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#169
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Snowy
The int talent is pretty much 5 wasted talent points, consider how much extra max mana that really gives you. There's your 5 points for reckoning right there. Having said that, why 5/5 Devo Aura? It's pretty unlikely you'll ever be running it right? You should be having Retribution Aura running if you're tanking. So switch those 5 points from Imp Devo Aura into 5/5 1-H Specialization. Read the tooltip carefully -- it increases ALL damage done while a 1-H weapon is increased. This is a strict 5% increase in your threat, so you really want to have this.
The points in Ret are fine, although you may want to either drop 2 points in Stoicism or Guardian's Favor to pick up Improved Judgement.
My paladin runs with a typical 49/12 cookie cutter spec which works extremely well for 5 mans and Karazhan. That would be the following build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
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I partially agree. I personally find points in Guardian's Favor to be a complete waste, it's basically a holy PVP talent. I find that I do run with devo aura on occasion, mostly in situations where threat generation is far less useful than maxing out stamina/avoidance. But the imp devo points just aren't worth it, we don't have enough spare points to go around as it stands. Ask for a holy pally to be stuck in your group instead (if there's one to spare), as they're fairly likely to have that talent (good for MT group, arena, etc).
Stoicism seems to have little worth for PVE tanking, again seems like a PVP talent (it's rare for mobs to dispel your spells). Spell Warding is very useful to have though, as nearly every boss mob in the game does some sort of spell damage.
Reckoning and 1-handed spec are really useful threat generators. Reckoning is much more useful for MTing something than OTing (in the sense of both tanks being on the same mob, not off-tanking a separate mob), as it won't proc unless you're getting wailed on. 1-handed spec is just about mandatory though, 5% is a huge threat bonus.
I haven't had too many occasions where I missed precision, and honestly I liked having some points in intellect, although I will be removing them for 2.3. Any "free" mana I can get helps a lot with the mana pot consumption.
As far as the actual tanking goes, read the basic guildlines in the first post of this thread. It sums up pally tanking pretty nicely in about 6 bullet points  .
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10/31/07, 1:40 PM
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#170
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Mitt Romney?
Blood Elf Priest
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by kalbear
I've seen this elsewhere, and I'm a bit baffled. Is retribution aura really that much worth it over devotion aura when you're talking karazhan and heroic tanking? I realize that as you get in gear progression armor value becomes less and less valuable per point, but early on that +1000 armor value has to be at least worth 1.5% damage mitigation, and that sounds like it's worth more than the threat generated from retribution.
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For that level of tanking, I think Ret aura is far better, threat is much more of a concern. I haven't tanked anything in a 25 man raid, but I imagine I'd be running Devo there -- but Imp Devo still seems like a waste of points. That's for others to answer though, at his level though I don't think it's a concern.
I guess in a broader sense it really depends on threat vs survivabilty in Karazhan. There's some fights where threat isn't a concern at all and survivabilty certainly is, and then absolutely I'd be running Devo there. I dont think I've ever run Devo in a heroic though.
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10/31/07, 1:43 PM
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#171
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Don Flamenco
Human Paladin
Silver Hand
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Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.
It really depends if your trying to get max threat or max mitigation.
Ret aura is huge for threat though, assuming 2.0 attack speed Ret aura is 26 damage per attack, so 13 holy damage a second or (1.9 x 13) 24.7 TPS on each attacker assuming no 1h spec. Just to compare, scant aura which is awesome, only adds @ 25 TPS to my standard cycle (consecrate, SoR, HS, Judge) yet people spend 21 points into ret to get it.
Your mileage may vary but ret aura is pretty damn good in general, if you are in a situation where you can get devo elsewhere, or can do not need max mitigation (trash, ae, etc).
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10/31/07, 1:58 PM
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#172
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Bald Bull
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I'm not saying that you should spec imp dev aura; that's clearly the wrong choice because of shield spec.
Ret aura is great when fighting adds or multiple mobs, but on bosses you're talking at best around 24.7 TPS from it. That sounds a bit high to me, honestly (I don't think most bosses hit at 2.0 speed), but let's go with that. The TPS from kara-equipped people in this thread appears to be around 500, so we're talking another 5% extra threat from ret aura. That's again, at best - no misses, no dodges. (Do parries count for ret aura hits? I didn't think so, but I could be wrong).
Whereas devotion aura improves survivability ( according to that calculation above) by a fair amount too. According to the solved problems there, 1 stamina is equivalent to 25 AC. That means devotion aura at base provides +34 effective stamina, and 51 stamina with improved. That goes down as you improve your HP, but at kara/heroic levels, that's about right.
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10/31/07, 2:34 PM
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#173
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Darksorrow (EU)
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Actually the more HP you have, the more effective HP you get from armor. Actually the amount of effective HP you get is dependant ONLY on your HPs. The amount of armor you have has no effect on how much effective HP you will get from adding more armor. The relative effect of adding armor goes down as you add more armor, but so does every other stat (the relative effect of +1 stam is different when you have 10,000 HP VS 15,000, same as armor, spell damage and almost any other stat,).
Exception would be avoidance, where more avoidance actually gives more relative benefit (50% avoidance when you have 0% is infinitely worse than +50% avoidance when you already have 50%, to give an extreme example). Avoidance though causes inconsistency in damage taken and doesn't stop you from dying to a bust, which is why stamina/armor stacking is prefered. But it actually has increasing benefits the more avoidance you have in terms of how much longer can the healers last.
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10/31/07, 3:18 PM
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#174
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Bald Bull
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Well, the value of armor relative to stamina (in terms of +sta) decreases, but the effective HP basically stays about the same. In any case, it's hard for me to ignore a skill that adds 33 stamina for free at the cost of some threat, especially when gear is an issue. If threat is an issue, I guess ret is the way to go, but I've seen more pally tanks sta-limited, not threat-limited, especially early on in their gear.
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10/31/07, 4:36 PM
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#175
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Glass Joe
Human Paladin
Turalyon (EU)
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K thanks for advice guys, ill try out the 1h spec and leave ret alone for a while 
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11/01/07, 3:16 AM
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#176
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Sargeras
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Originally Posted by Vinsent
Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.
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My problem is our tank group looks like Feral/Warrior/Me/Lock/Tree. Our feral is our third tank and main assist and thus we never have room in group 1 for a devotion paladin. I run ret aura almost all of the time in raids except in situations where I'm going to be tanking something for a long time and reducing incoming damage is more important than threat. I sit around 15.6k armor or so in raids.
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11/01/07, 8:15 AM
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#177
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Bald Bull
Blood Elf Paladin
Echo Isles
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I have a question: What does a Paladin have that supposedly makes Leotheras so easy? I've heard that its the Seal of Vengeance ticking immediately after a Human-Demon transition to instantly generate threat and let the Paladin grab aggro. If this is the case, does that mean Horde Paladins are SOL?
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11/01/07, 8:39 AM
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#178
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King Hippo
Dwarf Paladin
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
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Originally Posted by Prinsesa
I have a question: What does a Paladin have that supposedly makes Leotheras so easy? I've heard that its the Seal of Vengeance ticking immediately after a Human-Demon transition to instantly generate threat and let the Paladin grab aggro. If this is the case, does that mean Horde Paladins are SOL?
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Paladins also have ranged attacks such as jugements/avenging shield which makes it far less of a chore to go chasing after him
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11/01/07, 10:19 AM
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#179
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Von Kaiser
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How positive are we that JoB can never, ever miss or be resisted?
edit: I thought I saw convincing statistical evidence for it, but the ret paladin in my guild swears he's seen it happen. Digging through our last two weeks' worth of WWS doesn't turn up any misses or resists, but he's hit capped so if it's on the melee table then that is to be expected anyway.
I'm curious because this would make MTing Hydross and tanking Leo both much, much easier.
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11/01/07, 11:17 AM
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#180
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by bellator
Paladins also have ranged attacks such as jugements/avenging shield which makes it far less of a chore to go chasing after him
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Ya if you have boss timers you can make it so your avenger's shield will land some fraction of a second after he comes out of WW/different phase. I've never tanked him in the Demon phase - always have a lock do that. But for Demon->human and after WW's, the shield, a judgement, or even a monster heal will usually snap Leo right back on you.
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