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Old 08/27/08, 9:08 PM   #1936
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
I've put together a spreadsheet using the 6/9 rotation for comparing TPS on weapons. Those interested can always find the latest version here: Maintankadin :: View topic - (Build 8820) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

EDIT: The list in this post is outdated. See above.
Click Here ← Click Here
While I'm modeling level 80 ranks of spells, the current beta build puts currently available tanking weapons in this order:
Brutal Gladiator's Slicer
Blade of Infamy (no stamina)
Syphon of the Nathrezim (no stamina)
Rising Tide
Hammer of Sanctification
Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer
Merciless Gladiator's Slicer
Muramasa
Brutal Gladiator's Gavel
Reign of Misery
Hammer of Judgement
Vengeful Gladiator's Gavel
Gavel of Naaru Blessings
Merciless Gladiator's Gavel
Gavel of Unearthed Secrets
Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade

Last edited by PsiVen : 09/16/08 at 4:24 PM.

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Old 08/28/08, 1:59 AM   #1937
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Did you model [Syphon of the Nathrezim]? It's the same DPS as Rising tide, but slower, and with a larger AP bonus. If you're modeling misses, I can see how the hit rating on Rising Tide might still put it on top, but I'm surprised not to see the Syphon anywhere on the list.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/28/08, 2:31 AM   #1938
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Kilrogg
You're right, I forgot about that one. I'll put a few more in as well. Misses are modeled, but Syphon is the same TPS single-target and slightly higher on 2-3. Lacking in the stam department though.

Last edited by PsiVen : 08/28/08 at 3:00 AM.

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Old 08/28/08, 7:24 AM   #1939
Smurrf
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Human Paladin
 
Lothar
For those who are already planning on crossing over into more warrior-style gear in the crossover from 3.0 release to WotLK release...with a shift in weapon desirability, what enchants for weapons appear to be the top? Potency for 20 STR is available, as is Deathfrost, Mongoose, and so on. Or, is there still a need for +40 Spellpower even on a more melee-style weapon?

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Old 08/28/08, 8:12 AM   #1940
Prinsesa
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Echo Isles
40 spell power is still going to be preferable to Potency/Mongoose as far as threat goes even if you use a fast Warrior-tank weapon or a slow Rogue-MH weapon, since Holy Shield and Retribution Aura do not scale with AP, and most of our abilities either scale equally or gain more from SP.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

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Old 08/28/08, 8:35 AM   #1941
jere
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
40 spell power is still going to be preferable to Potency/Mongoose as far as threat goes even if you use a fast Warrior-tank weapon or a slow Rogue-MH weapon, since Holy Shield and Retribution Aura do not scale with AP, and most of our abilities either scale equally or gain more from SP.
Well that is indeed true, but some things to consider:
1. Hammer of the Righteous scales very well with AP and is a significant chunk of threat.
2. Seal of Vengeance scales better with AP than SP. If it becomes our tanking seal, then that will have some effect.
3. Even though two abilities don't scale with AP, we have 2 abilities that only scale with AP or BV, both of which are affected by strength.

Even if some of our abilities scale better with SP then AP, all of them scale even better with STR currently, which is affected by BoK and Divine Strength (if talented) as well. I wouldn't be surprised if Potency edged out ahead of spell dmg. I am not saying it will definitely, but I think it is at least worth consideration given the above points.

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Old 08/28/08, 9:56 AM   #1942
Muarf
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Ner'zhul (EU)
SP is also affected by BoK plus Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise through Touched by the Light.

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Old 08/28/08, 9:59 AM   #1943
PsiVen
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
With numbers as they are, equally itemized SP is worth about 43% of STR (source). So Potency is 24/.431 ~= 56 SP, clearly ahead. If I punch it into the spreadsheet above which has more accurate figures, it's closer to 62 SP.

The balance may shift if SoV changes, which seems likely since it's currently the only ability that scales twice as well with AP over SP rather than the other way around.

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Old 08/28/08, 10:43 AM   #1944
jere
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Muarf View Post
SP is also affected by BoK plus Sacred Duty and Combat Expertise through Touched by the Light.
Well technically all spell power is not affected by those (unless you are only getting SP from Stamina) and even so, the multiplier would be 1.1*1.1*1.06*0.3 = 0.38478, where as strength gets: 1.1*1.15 = 1.265 and is multiplied by 2 when converting to AP, so 2.53 multiplier to STR in terms of AP compared to a 0.38478 multiplier to STA in terms of SP. And STR also converts to BV at a 0.6375 multiplier, which affects Shield of Righteousness.

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Old 08/28/08, 12:03 PM   #1945
Qalor
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by PsiVen View Post
With numbers as they are, equally itemized SP is worth about 43% of STR (source). So Potency is 24/.431 ~= 56 SP, clearly ahead. If I punch it into the spreadsheet above which has more accurate figures, it's closer to 62 SP.

The balance may shift if SoV changes, which seems likely since it's currently the only ability that scales twice as well with AP over SP rather than the other way around.
That 62 SP figure is assuming use of Shield of Righteousness though isn't it? If we're looking at after the patch but before the expansion, I'd think spellpower still would win out.

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Old 08/28/08, 12:41 PM   #1946
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Prinsesa View Post
... since Holy Shield and Retribution Aura do not scale with AP...
This is why I think it's probably a mistake to analyze threat mechanics too deeply before the developers do their "second pass" look at paladins. Doesn't it seem like a pretty safe bet that Holy Shield will be scaling with block value somehow before WotLK goes live?

All we can really do at this point is try to cover all the bases. Presumably if you're tanking already you have a SP-based tanking weapon, so you're covered on that point. Pick up the slowest/heaviest 1-h melee weapon you can get your hands on so you're ready if HotR turns out to be the dominant factor. And if you're not already LC exalted you might want to lock that down, just in case the [Gavel of Unearthed Secrets] really does turn out to be super-awesome.

EDIT: Incidentally: Psiven can you run that weapon through your spreadheet? It's fairly low ilevel, but it's got a unique combination of spellpower and a very slow speed; I'd be really curious to see how it pans out with the current mechanics.

EDIT AGAIN: Looking at the charts you posted in the maintankadin thread, I notice that the Titansteel Guardian is way out in front threatwise. Obviously it's a higher ilevel than everything else, but I'm noticing that it also is a rare slow-swing spellpower weapon, so that makes me even more curious to see where the [Gavel of Unearthed Secrets] comes in.

ANOTHER EDIT AGAIN (last one, I swear): Regarding "things I'd like to know", your formula for consecration is correct.

Also, you mention that your spreadsheet can't handle a non-6/9 rotation right now, which affects modeling of pre-75 threat. However, I think even a non-ShR build is still going to be most efficient as a 6/9 due to GCD meshing:

Judge Hammer _____ _____ _____ Hammer Judge _____ _____ Hammer _____ _____ Judge Hammer... etc.

My understanding is that Ret DPS rotations on live get forced into a 6/9 for the same reasons due to the 6-second CD on crusader strike. So, you should be able to model a level 70 threat rotation simply by removing ShR.

Last edited by Cathela : 08/28/08 at 12:56 PM.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/28/08, 3:27 PM   #1947
Nobbynob Littlun
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Doomhammer
Yeah, testing stuff out is great, but I wouldn't be too rigorous, as we can certainly expect tweaks to get made. For example, Thorgred's post's coefficients for str and/or spellpower on some spells (SoVeng, Cons) don't line up with the numbers I'm seeing anymore.

On a related subject, when we do get around to finding those coefficients, let's not forget the formulae for Seal of Wisdom and Light, as they do scale now For now, Wisdom/Light per point of spellpower look to get around 60/75% (respectively) of the benefit given per point of strength. And let's see, spellpower per-point consumes 86% of the item budget consumed by strength per-point, is that right?

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Old 08/28/08, 8:28 PM   #1948
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
I don't mind being rigorous about updating tweaks, so no worries there. I intend to update with every beta build to get accurate figures.

Cathela: The Gavel is just worse than the worst on the sheet in SP gear, and .3 TPS under Vengeful in the theoretical T6-using-STR gear. Good catch, it's certainly a cheap alternative to the other low-end weapons.

A correction on the enchant, you're right I was assuming ShoR there. However I ran the numbers without ShoR for all weapons:
Potency adds 29.2 TPS (STDEV .51)
40 Spell Power adds 18.7 TPS (STDEV .03)
Potency > 40SP by 10.5 TPS (STDEV .49)

Upon closer inspection my spreadsheet wasn't actually adding strength's block value to anything because of a bad reference. Hence why the earlier number of 20 STR ~= 62 SP seems to hold up here.

Last edited by PsiVen : 08/29/08 at 3:51 AM.

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Old 08/29/08, 2:49 AM   #1949
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by PsiVen View Post
A correction on the enchant, you're right I was assuming ShoR there. However I ran the numbers without ShoR for all weapons:
Potency adds 29.2 TPS (STDEV .51)
40 Spell Power adds 18.7 TPS (STDEV .03)
Potency > 40SP by 10.5 TPS (STDEV .49)
Interesting; the rule of thumb has always been +2sp = +1tps (which this confirms); now we have a rule of thumb that +2str = +3tps (pre-ShR, that is).

What I'm seeing from your results is that while attack power is better than spell power for threat, spell power is better than innate weapon damage. So you gain threat by switching from the Titansteel Bonecrusher to the TitanSteel Guardian, trading ~60dps and 140 AP for 490 SP. But you would get even more threat if you could convert that spellpower into an equivalent itemization value of attack power -- then you'd have a low-dps weapon with +820 AP on it. Pity such weapons don't exist (well, except for druids).

It leads to a somewhat paradoxical gearing strategy: Stack str/AP on your gear, but use a caster weapon instead of a melee weapon (speed being equal, of course). I don't really think that's what the developers had in mind, but there you go.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 08/29/08, 7:41 AM   #1950
BFG
Von Kaiser
 
No WoW main
Gnome Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Cathela View Post
It leads to a somewhat paradoxical gearing strategy: Stack str/AP on your gear, but use a caster weapon instead of a melee weapon (speed being equal, of course). I don't really think that's what the developers had in mind, but there you go.
This is because Paladins will have only one tanking skill that scales with weapon damage (prot Warriors have 3 and use them more often), and auto-attack threat is insignificant. The only way to change the balance without overpowering HotR would be to add a copy of Heroic Strike or Devastate/Revenge, which is probably not happening in WotLK.

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