Protection and you! - Page 131

Qalor · 08/29/08, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

What I'm seeing from your results is that while attack power is better than spell power for threat, spell power is better than innate weapon damage. So you gain threat by switching from the Titansteel Bonecrusher to the TitanSteel Guardian, trading ~60dps and 140 AP for 490 SP. But you would get even more threat if you could convert that spellpower into an equivalent itemization value of attack power -- then you'd have a low-dps weapon with +820 AP on it. Pity such weapons don't exist (well, except for druids).

It leads to a somewhat paradoxical gearing strategy: Stack str/AP on your gear, but use a caster weapon instead of a melee weapon (speed being equal, of course). I don't really think that's what the developers had in mind, but there you go.

However, if I remember correctly, the only reason the Guardian came out ahead was because it gained an inordinate amount of spell damage from its sacrificed dps. If that is a bug or a random glitch, then caster weapons won't win out.

Cathela · 08/29/08, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by BFG

This is because Paladins will have only one tanking skill that scales with weapon damage (prot Warriors have 3 and use them more often), and auto-attack threat is insignificant. The only way to change the balance without overpowering HotR would be to add a copy of Heroic Strike or Devastate/Revenge, which is probably not happening in WotLK.

Right, exactly. I don't really think this is a problem, but I do think the developers need to be aware of it, because we're going to be demanding more slow-swinging spellpower weapons as the game goes on. (Most caster weapons have speeds of 2.0 or faster; [Gavel of Unearthed Secrets] is a very unique weapon in TBC.)

Originally Posted by Qalor

However, if I remember correctly, the only reason the Guardian came out ahead was because it gained an inordinate amount of spell damage from its sacrificed dps. If that is a bug or a random glitch, then caster weapons won't win out.

URLs for people following along at home (can't do an item link for beta items):

Titansteel Guardian
Titansteel Bonecrusher

According to Hyzenthlei, sacrificed dps turns into spellpower at a rate of 4 sp/dps. The Guardian sacrifices 60.9 dps compared to the Bonecrusher, which should turn into 244 spellpower. Even if the attack power on the Bonecrusher gets turned into spellpower and added in, that's still only another 82 spellpower for a total of 326.

I think what happened here is that they calculated the spellpower based on sacrificing the Guardian's dps all the way down to the old 41.3dps that's common for pre-WotLK caster items. That would be 102 dps sacrificed, or about 408 spellpower. Add in the 82 spellpower from converting the AP, and you end up with exactly 490 spellpower.

The question is whether that's a mistake, or if that's the new standard way to do things.

EDIT: The blue weapons in WotLK appear to follow the same pattern. Compare at ilevel 187:

Beguiling Scepter
Meathook's Slicer

The standard dps for one-handers at this ilevel is 120. The Scepter has 314 spellpower, which implies 78.5 dps sacrificed -- which would normally yield a 41.5dps weapon, rather than 73.6.

So they're pushing the melee dps on caster weapons up, without correspondingly taking away spellpower.

Redcape · 08/29/08, 2:39 PM

It looks like caster weapons are getting the same progression as they used to in spellpower for their ilvl but only losing 60% of their dps progression instead of 100%. It sure seems like prot paladins will be using caster weapons at that point, regardless of what random stats they allocate to them on top of the inherent spellpower (barring a few truly awfuls, like int/spirit or haste!).

Polishedhead · 08/29/08, 3:29 PM

Hello my purple armor wearing friends.

I have a question regarding M'uru's Void Spawns & shadow resistance gear. I hear they melee and they also cast resistable shadowdamage. Questions are:

For a Paladin who tanks the Sentinel plus the spawns; does it help using shadow resistance gear, if so, how much?

For a Paladin who tanks only the spawns; does it help using shadow resistance gear, if so, how much?

Reason i ask is our pally doesn't want to spend ~1.5k gold on the set, if it helps, he's gonna need it, so i need to know for sure that it helps. Therefore if u can give a reason as to why it helps rather than "ye our guild did that lol" it would be great (apologies if this sounds rude). I'm pretty sure it CAN be done both ways.

Also a sub-question. Is it worth grouping up 2 sets of spawns before AoEing or should they always be killed as they come before the second set of spawns have arrived?

Dippyskoodlez · 08/29/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Polishedhead

Hello my purple armor wearing friends.

I have a question regarding M'uru's Void Spawns & shadow resistance gear. I hear they melee and they also cast resistable shadowdamage. Questions are:

For a Paladin who tanks the Sentinel plus the spawns; does it help using shadow resistance gear, if so, how much?

For a Paladin who tanks only the spawns; does it help using shadow resistance gear, if so, how much?

Reason i ask is our pally doesn't want to spend ~1.5k gold on the set, if it helps, he's gonna need it, so i need to know for sure that it helps. Therefore if u can give a reason as to why it helps rather than "ye our guild did that lol" it would be great (apologies if this sounds rude). I'm pretty sure it CAN be done both ways.

Also a sub-question. Is it worth grouping up 2 sets of spawns before AoEing or should they always be killed as they come before the second set of spawns have arrived?

While we're still on muru.... not yet killed... heres what ive found :O

I wear 273 shadow resist, and tank about 2 waves of spawns at a time. (Neck, cloak, boots, belt) Then i stack spell damage for threat!

If you can heal a paladin through sentinal tanking plus voids... well.... wow you have some crazy healers o_o.

The sentinal hits like a truck, and in full shadow resist you wont be able to tank it.

Shadow resist does help mitigate a LOT of the void spawns shadowbolts though. Their melee damage is almost completely eaten away from block value.

Also note in that set of shadow gear and t6, im at 483 defense which is enough for the spawns, but im also not gemmed 15 stam every socket like a lot of people.

Cathela · 08/29/08, 5:45 PM

Doing some simple theorycrafting on the value of different stats for threat. Assuming all relevant talents for the most part (stat multipliers) plus BoK plus Unleashed Rage or equivalent. Ignoring One-hand Spec since it scales everything. Assuming Shield spec gets fixed to include Strength-derived block value. Ignoring misses/crits/resists for simplicity; I'm just going for back-of-the-envelope accuracy here.

1 WepDPS -> White dps: 1.0 (*armor factor) (*reckoning factor) tps
1 WepDPS -> HotR: 1.90/6 = 0.317 (*WepSpd) tps

1 AP -> White dps: 1/14 = 0.0714 (*armor factor) (*reckoning factor) tps
1 AP -> SoR: 0.05*1.90 = 0.095 (*reckoning factor) tps
1 AP -> JoR: 0.36*1.25*1.90 = 0.855 (/judgementCD) tps
1 AP -> Consecration: 0.04*1.90 = 0.076 tps
1 AP -> HotR: 1/14*2.4*1.20*1.90 = 0.391 tps
1 AP -> HotR/SoR: 0.05*1.90*WepSpd/6 = 0.095*WepSpd/6 tps

1 SP -> SoR: 0.10*1.90 = 0.190 (*reckoning factor) tps
1 SP -> JoR: 0.58*1.25*1.90 = 1.378 (/judgementCD) tps
1 SP -> Consecration: 0.04*1.90 = 0.076 tps
1 SP -> Holy Shield: 0.10*1.35*1.90 = 0.257 (*blocks per second) tps
1 AP -> HotR/SoR: 0.10*1.90*WepSpd/6 = 0.190*WepSpd/6 tps

1 Str -> AP: 2.0 AP
1 Str -> ShR: 0.50*2.0*1.15*1.20*1.90/6 = 0.437 tps

1 Sta -> SP: 0.3 SP

Converting gear stats to character-sheet stats:

1 Str on gear -> Str: 1.15*1.10 = 1.265 Str
1 Str on gear -> AP: 2*1.15*1.10*1.10 = 2.783 AP
1 AP on gear -> AP: 1.10 AP
1 Sta on gear -> Sta: 1.06*1.10*1.10 = 1.287 Sta
1 Sta on gear -> SP: 1.287*.3 = 0.385 SP

Okay, plugging in some numbers. Assume:

40% Reckoning uptime
30% physical damage reduction from target armor
9 second CD on judgements
Weapon speed of 2.40
One block every 2.5 seconds, hence 0.40 blocks per second.

Then, converting from nominal values on gear/buffs:

+1 Weapon DPS = 1.297 tps
+1 Attack Power = 1.260 tps
+1 Spell Power = 0.674 tps
+1 Strength = 4.059 tps
+1 Strength = 3.506 tps (pre-ShR)
+1 Stamina = 0.259 tps

Going through equal itemvalue amounts of these stats:

3.429 Strength = 13.920 tps
3.429 Strength = 12.022 tps (pre-ShR)
6.857 Attack Power = 8.640 tps
4 Spell Power = 2.696 tps
5.14 Stamina = 1.332 tps
1 Weapon DPS = 1.297 tps

So basically for threat gearing: Strength > AP > SP > Weapon damage, and only go for stamina as a survival stat. (Check my math, of course.)

On a separate note, does any know if stacking haste reduces the GCD for non-spell abilities? I'm thinking about HotR and ShR, which are physical attacks (they can be cast through silence) and wondering how much haste you need before it buys you an extra GCD in your threat rotation.

Denogran · 08/29/08, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dippyskoodlez

If you can heal a paladin through sentinal tanking plus voids... well.... wow you have some crazy healers o_o.

We've not yet killed him either, but our first night of attempts I did both Sentinel and voids. It was some of the most fun tanking I've done in a long time - probably the most since my first Hyjal packs. We moved to a 4 tank strat though for now, as I will be missing a lot of the next couple of weeks and the three tank strat really depends on a well-geared protadin that knows the fight, whereas the 4 tank strat requires a much less knowledgeable/aware/geared prot pally.

As far as healing goes, it's a drag, ya. But if your healers are keeping your sentinel tank up, then it's not a lot more to keep a prot pally up as well. Our sentinel tank is often taking shadow bolt damage when he drags his sentinel over to die in my consecrate anyway, which puts him pretty close to the damage just I'd be taking doing them both.

Smurrf · 08/29/08, 6:23 PM

Awesome work there...all the information I'd asked for, and then some. Now the question for this, are the resulting threat levels intended for level 70, or for level 80? I see where ShR is plugged in, but we won't have that for the remainder of the 70 3.0 raiding cycle.

Cathela · 08/29/08, 6:38 PM

Good question. Updated the post above to include entries for strength without Shield of Righteousness. It makes strength slightly less powerful, but still the best option by a good margin.

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 08/30/08, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Good question. Updated the post above to include entries for strength without Shield of Righteousness. It makes strength slightly less powerful, but still the best option by a good margin.

But the upshot as far as weapons go is... spelldamage is worth a lot more than weapon DPS, so don't throw out the spelldamage weapons after all? Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. If so, I personally think that's pretty cool. I like the flavor of using a different weapon than Warriors.

Dippyskoodlez · 08/30/08, 3:38 AM

Originally Posted by PsiVen

I've put together a spreadsheet using the 6/9 rotation for comparing TPS on weapons. Those interested can always find the latest version here: Maintankadin :: View topic - (Build 8820) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

What about Tempest of Chaos? I absolutely love this thing for tanking, it certainly deserves a spot in the comparison. I attempted to fit it in the spreadsheet, but my lack of Excel skills is quite evident. 259 spell damage is awesome.

Nobbynob Littlun · 08/30/08, 3:40 AM

Yes, although if you've got a dps weapon lying around it is still useful for dps when soloing. Also, the distinction from warrior tanking weapons might not be what you think (though I'm no mind reader!). Like us, their threat scales more off of strength, and sacrificing weapon damage for strength or attack power will see their threat increased everywhere aside from devastate - so I gather. But, this opportunity doesn't present itself to them as it does to paladins with spellpower weapons. Devastate is much more spammable than HotR, though, so it works out.

Dekkar · 08/30/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Nobbynob Littlun

Yes, although if you've got a dps weapon lying around it is still useful for dps when soloing. Also, the distinction from warrior tanking weapons might not be what you think (though I'm no mind reader!). Like us, their threat scales more off of strength, and sacrificing weapon damage for strength or attack power will see their threat increased everywhere aside from devastate - so I gather. But, this opportunity doesn't present itself to them as it does to paladins with spellpower weapons. Devastate is much more spammable than HotR, though, so it works out.

The nice thing about only the weapon giving us more threat at the expense of weapon damage while the rest of our gear has strength is that we will solo much better. I can see this happening:

-when tanking instances/raids, you need the additional threat from the spell damage weapon.
-when soloing /questing/grinding, you now have the option of using a higher DPS weapon, allowing for more white damage.

I like that.

bellator · 08/30/08, 6:54 AM

Not see this mentioned, but the change to Blessing of Sanctuary looks good:-

As well as 3% dmg it also regens 2% mana / 10 rage / 20 runic power per block/parry/dodge.

This is quite a clever change. Now as we outgear places and our mana regen from being healed decreses out mana regen from BoSan should increase

Worldie · 08/30/08, 9:22 AM

It's a great change, but i can see it reworked again before the end of the beta.
Expecially the rage return part, looks like too much powerful. 10 rage per dodge/parry/block, considering a ~40% combined avoidance for just being uncrittable, means they are going to get the proc about every 4 seconds.
It also gets in contrast with the previous talents added to the protection trees of warriors which granted way less than 10 rage per hit avoided.
I'd not be surprised if it gets reduced to 5 rage in a later build.
Still, a great change, finally a worth 21 pointer

To the one who asked about M'uru, we tried that tactic. Well, it's a very doable strategy, but i'd add a suggestion: tell the paladin's healers to literally spam heals, a second of no heals can be fatal. It's a very RNG dependant tactic.