Protection and you! - Page 14

jj_starr · 11/03/07, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vinsent

Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.

It really depends if your trying to get max threat or max mitigation.

Ret aura is huge for threat though, assuming 2.0 attack speed Ret aura is 26 damage per attack, so 13 holy damage a second or (1.9 x 13) 24.7 TPS on each attacker assuming no 1h spec. Just to compare, scant aura which is awesome, only adds @ 25 TPS to my standard cycle (consecrate, SoR, HS, Judge) yet people spend 21 points into ret to get it.

Your mileage may vary but ret aura is pretty damn good in general, if you are in a situation where you can get devo elsewhere, or can do not need max mitigation (trash, ae, etc).

Ret aura is only useful prior to obtaining gear to become uncrushable or when fighting enough mobs that HS charges get used before it can be refreshed. When single target tanking boss mobs ret aura provides zero extra threat since it doesn't proc off of blocks. So since a MT pallys hit table only contains miss/dodge/parry/block it will never proc. Also it's returns when fighting multiple mobs are also diminished since between HS being up, Redoubt procs, and the pallys normal 30%+ avoidance/block ret aura won't be proccing as often as you would think. In end-game raid tanking the aura hierarchy is Sant(From a ret pally hopefully)>devo(from you or another pally)>imp Conc(Silence kills pallys)>ret IMO.

• Snowy · 11/03/07, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by jj_starr

Ret aura is only useful prior to obtaining gear to become uncrushable or when fighting enough mobs that HS charges get used before it can be refreshed. When single target tanking boss mobs ret aura provides zero extra threat since it doesn't proc off of blocks. So since a MT pallys hit table only contains miss/dodge/parry/block it will never proc.

What? That's not true at all. Take a look at this one little snippet from my Paladin tanking Moroes last night. There's plenty of blocks in there, and you can see the Retribution Aura damage every time there's a Greater Blessing of Sanctuary damage.

01:58'52.312 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 21 Holy damage 
312 Pyla's Thorns resisted by Moroes 
593 Zuljia's Heroic Strike hits Moroes for 321 
625 Zuljia's Revenge hits Moroes for 289 
625 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'53.015 Pyla's Melee crits Moroes for 282 
421 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
828 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness resisted by Moroes 
828 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 1227 (358 blocked) 
01:58'54.031 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 176 
203 Zuljia's Devastate dodged by Moroes 
562 Pyla's Holy Shield hits Moroes for 228 Holy damage 
562 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage (BLOCKED HERE)
562 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage (RET AURA HERE)
562 Pyla's Thorns resisted by Moroes 
843 Pyla's Melee misses Moroes 
01:58'55.078 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
843 Zuljia's Heroic Strike hits Moroes for 321 
01:58'56.250 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
718 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 120 
01:58'57.000 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 111 Holy damage (37 resisted) 
484 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'58.546 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Melee parried by Moroes 
843 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
984 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'59.546 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
01:59'00.359 Pyla's Melee parried by Moroes 
375 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 101 Holy damage (34 resisted) 
859 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 2993 (358 blocked) 
01:59'01.031 Moroes's Holy Shield resisted by Pyla 
140 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 1141 (358 blocked) 
375 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
390 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage 
390 Pyla's Retribution Aura resisted by Moroes 
390 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
390 Moroes's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary resisted by Pyla 
781 Pyla's Holy Shield hits Moroes for 228 Holy damage 
781 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
781 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
01:59'02.093 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 100 (glancing) 
234 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 74 Holy damage (74 resisted) 
484 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
01:59'03.156 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness hits Moroes for 646 Holy damage 
171 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
390 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 101 Holy damage (34 resisted) 
468 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
843 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 119 
01:59'04.281 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 111 Holy damage (37 resisted) 
01:59'05.437 Pyla's Exorcism hits Moroes for 480 Holy damage (480 resisted) 
656 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
656 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 71 (54 blocked) 
843 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
890 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:59'14.781 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
01:59'15.000 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 139 
093 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
453 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
531 Zuljia's Shield Slam hits Moroes for 516 
937 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 73 (glancing) 
01:59'16.968 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 123 (glancing) 
968 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 2362 (358 blocked) 
01:59'17.062 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 49 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
546 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
859 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 109 
01:59'18.281 Moroes is afflicted by Curse of Agony 
703 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 130 
703 Moroes is afflicted by Demoralizing Shout 
718 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
01:59'19.062 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
062 Moroes is afflicted by Shadow Embrace 
546 Sporty's Melee hits Moroes for 274 
562 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness resisted by Moroes 
562 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 858 (358 blocked) 
781 Sporty's Melee hits Moroes for 135 (glancing) 
781 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 149 
984 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 109 
984 Anzha's Curse of Agony dots Moroes for 204 Shadow damage 
984 Moroes is afflicted by Deadly Poison VII 
01:59'20.000 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
000 Sporty's Sinister Strike hits Moroes for 403 
000 Zuljia's Thunder Clap hits Moroes for 149 
390 Moroes is afflicted by Corruption 
390 Moroes is afflicted by Thunder Clap 
406 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage 
406 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
406 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 7 Nature damage

jj_starr · 11/03/07, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Snowy

What? That's not true at all. Take a look at this one little snippet from my Paladin tanking Moroes last night. There's plenty of blocks in there, and you can see the Retribution Aura damage every time there's a Greater Blessing of Sanctuary damage.

968 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 2362 (358 blocked) 
01:59'17.062 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 49 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage

You're right it looks like it did proc off a block. I know I read somewhere else that it doesn't proc off blocks and even went outside and fought some of the mobs outside shat with only ret aura up and it didn't proc once. Anyone have any idea why it wouldn't have procced on the mobs outside shat? (It was proccing on regular hits but everytime I blocked I was only getting the HS damage.)

EDIT: Just tested it again and again it wasn't proccing. Here's my combat log:

22:18:18 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee miss [You]
22:18:20 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:21 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 175
22:18:21 [You] -- Holy Shield
22:18:22 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee miss [You]
22:18:23 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 141
22:18:25 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee [You] 67
22:18:25 [You] Damage Shields [Ironspine Petrifier] 27
22:18:26 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 133
22:18:26 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee [You] 61
22:18:26 [You] Damage Shields [Ironspine Petrifier] 27
22:18:28 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:29 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 182
22:18:30 [You] ++ Seal of Righteousness
22:18:30 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee [You] 58
22:18:31 [You] Damage Shields [Ironspine Petrifier] 28
22:18:31 [You] -- Seal of Righteousness
22:18:31 [You] Judgement of Righteousness [Ironspine Petrifier] 542
22:18:32 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 167
22:18:32 [You] ++ Seal of Righteousness
22:18:32 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee miss [You]
22:18:34 [You] ++ Holy Shield
22:18:34 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 126
22:18:34 [You] Seal of Righteousness [Ironspine Petrifier] 194
22:18:34 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:35 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:18:36 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:37 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:18:37 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 192
22:18:37 [You] Seal of Righteousness [Ironspine Petrifier] 194
22:18:38 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:39 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:18:40 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 178
22:18:40 [You] Seal of Righteousness [Ironspine Petrifier] 194
22:18:40 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:41 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:18:42 [You] -- Holy Shield
22:18:43 [You] Melee [Ironspine Petrifier] 153
22:18:43 [You] Seal of Righteousness [Ironspine Petrifier] 194
22:18:43 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee [You] 69
22:18:43 [You] Damage Shields [Ironspine Petrifier] 28
22:18:44 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee parry [You]
22:18:46 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:49 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee [You] 68
22:18:49 [You] Retribution Aura resist [Ironspine Petrifier]
22:18:49 [You] ++ Redoubt
22:18:51 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee dodge [You]
22:18:52 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:55 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:57 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:58 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:18:59 [You] -- Redoubt
22:19:01 [You] ++ Blessing of Sanctuary
22:19:01 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee parry [You]
22:19:02 [You] -- Seal of Righteousness
22:19:03 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee dodge [You]
22:19:04 [You] ++ Holy Shield
22:19:05 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:19:05 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:19:05 [You] Blessing of Sanctuary [Ironspine Petrifier] 48
22:19:07 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee parry [You]
22:19:08 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee miss [You]
22:19:10 [Ironspine Petrifier] Melee block [You]
22:19:12 [You] killed [Ironspine Petrifier]
22:19:12 [You] Holy Shield [Ironspine Petrifier] 219
22:19:12 Death: [Ironspine Petrifier]
22:19:14 [You] -- Holy Shield

Cathela · 11/03/07, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by jj_starr

You're right it looks like it did proc off a block. I know I read somewhere else that it doesn't proc off blocks and even went outside and fought some of the mobs outside shat with only ret aura up and it didn't proc once. Anyone have any idea why it wouldn't have procced on the mobs outside shat? (It was proccing on regular hits but everytime I blocked I was only getting the HS damage.)

It doesn't proc on full blocks. It does proc on partial blocks. So, unless your block value is greater than the damage the mobs are doing to you, you'll be proccing Ret plenty.

jj_starr · 11/03/07, 11:24 PM

Aha that explains it. Ty for setting me straight and sorry for the confusion.

Bronwyn · 11/03/07, 11:27 PM

Question: has any of the present Prot-Paladins ever tanked RoS Phase III? I plan on using our Paladin as MT there, but I don't know how badly he will be affected by the mana-burn (which on a warrior is a rage burn)

• Chicken · 11/04/07, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn

Question: has any of the present Prot-Paladins ever tanked RoS Phase III? I plan on using our Paladin as MT there, but I don't know how badly he will be affected by the mana-burn (which on a warrior is a rage burn)

I haven't heard of anyone actually trying it, I think the general assumption was that the mana burn damage would get too high; the actual mana being burned shouldn't be an issue (As with a warrior tank, that would be a predictable damage spike your healers should work around, so your Prot Paladin should near instantly have some mana to work with again after it hits). The reason the mana burn would be too high compared to a warrior is that a Prot Paladin is less efficient at dumping large amounts of their mana than a warrior is at dumping large amounts of rage (Basically, the same reason you don't hear of many feral druids tanking him either). Edit: And of course you'll already be using at least a Prot Warrior to tank for phase 2, which is another reason why you rarely hear of any other classes tanking phase 3.

I'd love to hear if it works out, because there's certainly some advantages to using a Prot Paladin for that phase of the fight.

Shalcker · 11/04/07, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

The reason the mana burn would be too high compared to a warrior is that a Prot Paladin is less efficient at dumping large amounts of their mana than a warrior is at dumping large amounts of rage (Basically, the same reason you don't hear of many feral druids tanking him either).

You can spam Righteous Fury if you want to drain your mana fast, it's 24% of base mana every global cooldown not busy with aggro/survival skills.

Prinsesa · 11/04/07, 9:48 PM

So,
20 Spell Hit Rating increases your TPS by about 0.83%
20 Hit Rating increases your TPS by about 0.56%
20 Expertise Rating increases your TPS by about 0.94%

I think a better basis of comparison would be to compare equal amounts of itemization points, as opposed to equal amounts of rating, although your point is well taken.

With regards to the Taunt/Growl/RD change, a melee hit would have a 9% chance to miss against a level 73 mob. To negate that, you would need 142 hit rating.

If we have Precision, and assume RD is no longer affected by spell hit, this would drop to 95 hit rating.

Muphrid · 11/04/07, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I think a better basis of comparison would be to compare equal amounts of itemization points, as opposed to equal amounts of rating, although your point is well taken.

With regards to the Taunt/Growl/RD change, a melee hit would have a 9% chance to miss against a level 73 mob. To negate that, you would need 142 hit rating.

If we have Precision, and assume RD is no longer affected by spell hit, this would drop to 95 hit rating.

Equal quantities of rating cost the same, do they not?

Prinsesa · 11/05/07, 1:21 AM

Equal quantities of rating cost the same, do they not?

Apparently they do. My bad.

Offtopic: Hi Muphrid!

I was wondering when I'd see you grace these forums.

Muphrid · 11/05/07, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Apparently they do. My bad.

Offtopic: Hi Muphrid!

I was wondering when I'd see you grace these forums.

Heh, I popped in this thread mostly for noticing your name.

Sort of on topic, it's the equal stat weight that is one of the robust features of the rating system. Often I see people suggest that all ratings convert to a percentage with the same conversion, but this would force Blizzard to give each rating a different item point weight (well, as long as they stubbornly hold on to their item point allocation system, anyway).

falonub · 11/06/07, 1:13 PM

I'm leveling a paladin to possibly go prot and I have a few basic noob questions

. This is my first paladin ever so I'm sure it'll be stupid retarded what I ask but here goes. I was looking at the OP's and a few others that posted, their talents and was wondering if 0/49/12 was the "cookie-cutter" build for prot paladins? Also the talent "Weapon Expertise" I notice that no one actually has it, but with weapon skill being converted to Expertise in 2.3 is this still going to be a skipped talent? And more-so a comment, It's a shame Imp. SoR is in Holy

Also, when you're tanking are you using devotion aura for armor or retribution aura for the threat?(probably the noobest question right there =X)

• Snowy · 11/06/07, 1:30 PM

Yes, 0/49/12 is the "cookie-cutter" build -- you can't really go wrong with it. Right now Weapon Expertise is a really worthless talent -- I actually haven't studied the 2.3 talent trees that much yet so I can't comment on 2.3 builds.

As for tanking, the aura you run is a judgement call by you. Basically it comes down to survivability vs threat. Use the aura that helps your weaker point. Generally for me, I run Retribution Aura in 5 mans and heroics -- I'm usually tanking multiple mobs and want as much threat as possible. For harder hitting bosses in Kara, I'll switch to Devotion Aura. (after all you can pop Avenging Wrath to front load a lot of threat in boss fights) Generally when I run heroics though I run with Retribution Aura since I'm running with very good groups -- so healing isn't an issue, but putting out as much threat as possible is. That just illustrates how it's a judgement call. If you were running it with a bunch of people in blues, then maybe threat isn't an issue at all and you'd want to run Devo instead to help the healer out a little bit.

• Chicken · 11/06/07, 5:16 PM

Weapon Expertise definitely will not be skipped next patch. Not only is expertise very good, it's also 10% extra stamina. I'd say any paladin that seriously wants to tank and skips Weapon Expertise isn't thinking properly.

I'd expect something like this to become the new "cookie-cutter" build really: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Basically it means trading Reckoning for Weapon Expertise. It's a mild loss in threat, but the 10% extra stamina is easily worth it, as are the lower amount of parries (Both from losing reckoning and from expertise). The threat loss isn't as large as it might appear at first sight as well, both expertise and reckoning will improve your auto-attack + seal threat.

Another variation possible on the above build if you really do want Reckoning is dropping Anticipation for Reckoning; but that requires at least a certain level of gear since Anticipation is a fairly good contribution to both crit (0.8%) and crush immunity (3.2%).