Protection and you! - Page 147

Dram · 09/17/08, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

EDIT: Arrrgh, chain post. Sorry.

If someone could test SotR and DS as well, that'd be great.

I can confirm that DS works through silence.

mclem · 09/17/08, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dram

I can confirm that DS works through silence.

Is HS too much to hope for? I don't think I've seen a comment on that either way, but it'd be a huge boon for tanking silencing bosses.

Prinsesa · 09/17/08, 12:59 PM

Bostung over in the WOTLK Warrior thread ran some threat tests in this post and found that Salvation is indeed baked into Defensive Stance.

That is, the tooltip indicating 145% threat generation is now completely bogus, and Defensive Stance actually generates 207.35% threat.

If we are to follow this for Righteous Fury, then one should expect it to generate (1.9 / 0.7) or 271% threat for Holy damage.

I'll try to run the script he used for testing once I get the chance on the PTR, and I also invite others to test for verification.

If nothing else, this confirms that the "baking in" of Salv was really through a direct increase in threat output, and is independent of any new tanking abilities we're already getting.

DdarkDdemon · 09/17/08, 1:21 PM

It would further negate the usefulness of reckoning to a certain extend.
If the modifier of holy damage is changed with the formula 1.9/0.7 (which happened to defensive stand 1.45/0.7), the modified threat generated by auto attack will not increase.

Eventhough autoattack is only a small part of our threatgeneration and reckoning is mainly important because it procs seals, with the increased usefulness of warriortanking/rogue mainhand weapons autoattacks will be more significant than before.

Redcape · 09/17/08, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

If we are to follow this for Righteous Fury, then one should expect it to generate (1.9 / 0.7) or 271% threat for Holy damage.

This is really over the top. Even if level 80 paladin tanks were only doing 1500 dps (which is a heinous underestimation) they would be delivering 3730 threat/sec. This would mean that threat simply isn't a thing anymore. I imagine they will be either nerfing down some of the prot/bear dps abilities to compensate though.

Either way, having this information not be reflected in the tooltip is pretty stupid. The players should actually get to see what their abilities do.

Tilted · 09/17/08, 2:55 PM

And a warrior doing the same amount of damage would be doing 3112.5 TPS from damage alone, before "baked in" threat generation from things like Devastate and Shield Slam. I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I can't imagine the end result would be much (if at all) less than if Righteous Fury had a 271% multiplier.

From what little reports I've seen from beta, threat is a sheer afterthought in almost all encounters. Tanks simply don't have to try to hold aggro. Time will tell if this paradigm holds true, but I can't believe it's intended to stay that way.

Sydane · 09/17/08, 3:02 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

This is really over the top. Even if level 80 paladin tanks were only doing 1500 dps (which is a heinous underestimation) they would be delivering 3730 threat/sec. This would mean that threat simply isn't a thing anymore. I imagine they will be either nerfing down some of the prot/bear dps abilities to compensate though.

Either way, having this information not be reflected in the tooltip is pretty stupid. The players should actually get to see what their abilities do.

It isn't over the top, it's exactly the same as everyone in your raid having Blessing of Salvation, which is what they said they were doing. It's a very solid buff to non-paladin tanks in 5 mans because they will have the same threat buffer that paladins have long enjoyed. Taking something that was a flat mandatory buff for basically any real raiding encounter and just integrating it into the mechanics was a great move. I do agree that the tooltips should be updated, but tooltips have been notoriously inaccurate for years anyway, and there is talk of a whole new and more accurate tooltip system coming down the line eventually anyway.

Tilted · 09/17/08, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

It isn't over the top, it's exactly the same as everyone in your raid having Blessing of Salvation, which is what they said they were doing. It's a very solid buff to non-paladin tanks in 5 mans because they will have the same threat buffer that paladins have long enjoyed. Taking something that was a flat mandatory buff for basically any real raiding encounter and just integrating it into the mechanics was a great move. I do agree that the tooltips should be updated, but tooltips have been notoriously inaccurate for years anyway, and there is talk of a whole new and more accurate tooltip system coming down the line eventually anyway.

Don't forget though that we're doing 2-3x more damage with the new mechanics, which means the "baked in" multipliers inflate threat generation to monster levels. Blizzard appears to have set the multipliers simply on the change of talents and removal of Salv, but they haven't taken into account that raw damage output has gone up so much that threat gen is a total non-issue on single targets.

Redcape · 09/17/08, 8:18 PM

I definitely think that making nonpaladin tanks be able to hold decent threat in a 5 man is a great idea. However, doing it by raising tank damage and putting dps stats on tank gear is a good idea, and doing it by raising threat coefficients hugely at the same time is a bad idea. They need to set a bar for tank dps vs. standard dps and make threat coefficients to match, this current implementation feels very hacked together.

Cathela · 09/17/08, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

This is really over the top. Even if level 80 paladin tanks were only doing 1500 dps (which is a heinous underestimation) they would be delivering 3730 threat/sec. This would mean that threat simply isn't a thing anymore. I imagine they will be either nerfing down some of the prot/bear dps abilities to compensate though.

Either way, having this information not be reflected in the tooltip is pretty stupid. The players should actually get to see what their abilities do.

Not to be a broken record, but this is precisely why I think we didn't get salv "baked into" RF.

Remember that we're getting a massive new single-target threat generating tool. Prot warriors aren't; their main new toys in WotLK are some AoE utility stuff and some talents to shake up the tanking rotation and make things more interesting. But they aren't getting a new threat-generation tool that's even remotely as powerful as SotR.

I'm 95% certain that SotR is our new "baked-in salv". I'll run tests tomorrow if nobody beats me to it.

In other news, I did some investigation of the defense and uncrittability issue. With no defense skill from talents anymore (Anticipation change), we'll need to get 140 defense skill from gear to be uncrittable against +3 mobs, which is 689 defense rating. Right now the absolute best I can do with my "Tier 6.1" gear is 522 defense rating. I can probably push that up a bit with some level 80 gems, but I don't see a whole lot of level 80 blues that offer significant defense upgrades unless you really focus on getting defense above everything else.

(e.g., the crafted level 76 blue helm has more +defense than any of the level 80 helms, the highest-defense chestpiece requires level 73, etc.)

Russta · 09/18/08, 7:08 AM

Improved Leader of the Pack (Tier 7) - In addition, you gain 4% of your maximum mana when you benefit from Improved Leader of the Pack heal.

It's a Feral change but I noticed this in today's changes. Could be pretty nice for us now that LotP is raid wide and I'd presume most of us raid with at least one.

Prinsesa · 09/18/08, 7:16 AM

As I understood the discussions with Ghostcrawler, I believe that that part of the talent will proc for Druids only, as a way to help their mana-for-shifting issues.

Russta · 09/18/08, 7:57 AM

Really? Well, that's a shame, would create some nice synergy though I guess it'd be pretty overpowered for certain classes.

bellator · 09/18/08, 7:59 AM

I did some 10-man naxx raiding last night. Just a brief comment that whether or not BoS has been baked into RF etc or not does not matter at this point as according to the threat meters no one was coming close to my threat. The highest anyone had at the end of a single target fight was around 30%. The dps is also very nice. On Patchwerk whilst i highly doubt i was using the ideal dps rotation, my dps from prot tanking hit 1600dps (with craftables/heroics etc)

♦ Oggie · 09/18/08, 9:28 AM

When I first saw your post Cathela I did not agree with your post either, but now I agree. I think that's pretty likely overall. ShoR is nuts.