Protection and you! - Page 149

PsiVen · 09/19/08, 3:50 PM

Uh, wow. So you're saying a 10k ShoR crit should be generating 32,604 threat? That's reeeeeeeeally excessive. Here's to hoping we have our threat modifiers, not our damage retuned.

• zeidrich · 09/19/08, 4:09 PM

Removing while I verify numbers.

Rasczak · 09/19/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by daelo

We just restarted the servers to fix an issue with the diminishing returns formula we added for Dodge, Parry, and the enemy's chance to miss you. The issue fixed was that the formula now works! This will have a definite effect on all tanks ability to mitigate damage due to effectively lowered amounts of those avoidance values.

We'd love to see combat logs from our more melee intensive raid fights after this change.

Anyone with beta up for testing the changes?

JulianMaiev · 09/19/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Nice work, jere! Interesting to see that about white damage, but it makes sense.

Do DKs have an interrupt? If they do, then I think almost certainly we'll get one. If they don't, then I could see having two tanks with interrupts and two without being considered "flavor" (though I hope that's not the end result).

It would be very simple though to simply attach a 4-second (or whatever) interrupt to HoJ. The only effect it would have on PvP would be that dispelling the stun would still leave the target interrupted for a couple seconds.

There was a glyph for Exorcism at one point that turned it into an interrupt; they should be able to code it as castable on anything but only damage-dealing to undead and demons, and that's another way they could go.

Sydane · 09/19/08, 5:09 PM

Remember, every single dps in the raid will be doing 43% more threat as well. They baked in salv, so the balance comes out the same. 30k threat from 10k damage seems like a ton, but in the past the dps was only doing 4.5k threat from that same 10k damage anyway. The ratio hasn't changed any, when it comes to the baseline threat modifiers.

Now, the increased threat overall, from more damage and better abilities, seems to fall in line with Blizzard realizing that the "win Omen" minigame really doesn't bring much to the table in terms of fun. The game lacks tanks as it is, so penalizing undergeared tanks by making it hard for their well geared dps friends to run with them doesn't help things at all. Blizzard can still tweak the threat challenge on encounters the same way it always has, with threat wipes and knockbacks, but the old days where pugging was a nightmare either because the tank didn't generate enough threat or the dps did too much seem to be behind us, and that is a really good thing.

Halion · 09/19/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

It would be very simple though to simply attach a 4-second (or whatever) interrupt to HoJ. The only effect it would have on PvP would be that dispelling the stun would still leave the target interrupted for a couple seconds.

This just in.

"We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job."

Again, from Ghostcrawler on Beta boards.

Edit: We are still a little behind other tanks. DK Mind Freeze is a 10 sec CD, Warrior Shield Bash is a 12 sec CD. We are on equal footing with druids, both HoJ (untalented) and Bash are 1 minute CD's. It's a step in the right direction, but not quite equality.

Mordekhuul · 09/19/08, 6:10 PM

Ghostcrawler also pontificated a bit on perceived disparities in our ability to main tank here.

Anyone have an offhand number for how much stamina a raid buffed paladin walking into Naxx10 has on beta or a guess at how much a raid buffed paladin in the expansion might have on starting Naxx10/25?

Considering our talent advantage on stamina scaling, it is just the disparity in base health we have to overcome if comparing tankadins to warriors, and a feel for how quickly we'll close that gap in the expansion may be telling.

PsiVen · 09/19/08, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Sydane

Remember, every single dps in the raid will be doing 43% more threat as well. They baked in salv, so the balance comes out the same. 30k threat from 10k damage seems like a ton, but in the past the dps was only doing 4.5k threat from that same 10k damage anyway. The ratio hasn't changed any, when it comes to the baseline threat modifiers.

Now, the increased threat overall, from more damage and better abilities, seems to fall in line with Blizzard realizing that the "win Omen" minigame really doesn't bring much to the table in terms of fun. The game lacks tanks as it is, so penalizing undergeared tanks by making it hard for their well geared dps friends to run with them doesn't help things at all. Blizzard can still tweak the threat challenge on encounters the same way it always has, with threat wipes and knockbacks, but the old days where pugging was a nightmare either because the tank didn't generate enough threat or the dps did too much seem to be behind us, and that is a really good thing.

I don't think you're seeing the big picture here. Our threat is already outrageously good to the point of DPS never even coming close, and now it's 43% higher than way too high. They're double dipping here, by improving our scaling and damage dramatically and then "baking in" Salvation. Imagine if you will, a situation where as a warlock entering Naxxramas your tank is doing 5000 TPS (yes, this is a serious figure). You would need to do 6500 DPS and never soulshatter in order to pull aggro.

Threat meters are in the game now for a reason, and it's supposed to be useful information, not pretty big numbers for tanks to look at instead of damage meters

Cathela · 09/19/08, 8:14 PM

As reported in the general paladin WotLK thread, the coefficient on SotR has been reduced to 100% in a recent hotfix (though the tooltip hasn't been updated yet). That gives 130% with SotT, or 143% with SotT+1hspec. At present it still has no inherent threat modifier aside from what it gets from RF.

I think we all saw a nerf coming, although this one seems pretty steep. Hopefully this is just another testing point and not the final value.

EDIT: Oh, and of course, good news on the HoJ thing. Dunno if this is hotfixed in now or still waiting on a patch.

Holtzhammer · 09/20/08, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Halion

This just in.

"We did add the interrupt to Hammer of Justice. This was done solely so that Protection paladins wouldn't feel like they couldn't tank mobs that needed to be interrupted but were stun immune. We just think that interrupt capability crosses over the line into something that a tank needs to do his job."

Again, from Ghostcrawler on Beta boards.

Edit: We are still a little behind other tanks. DK Mind Freeze is a 10 sec CD, Warrior Shield Bash is a 12 sec CD. We are on equal footing with druids, both HoJ (untalented) and Bash are 1 minute CD's. It's a step in the right direction, but not quite equality.

Rewritting this post. Was orignally doing Druid/pally, but decided to do all 4 tanks.

Comparing Prot Pally v. Bear, Warrior, and DK.

Druid

Feral Charge--15s cooldown, 4s immobilize, 4s interrupt
Bash--1 min cooldown 4s stun, 3s counterspell(interupt+lockout)
to a lesser extent
Maim--10s cooldown incapacitate, 3s counterspell, damage

Paladin

Hammer of Justice--30s cooldown(talented, I know) 6s stun, interupt.
to a lesser extent
Repentance--1m cooldown, 10s incapacitate, but valid CC.

Warrior

Shield Bash--12s cooldown, 6s counterspell. Requires shield
Gag-order'd Heroic Throw--1m cooldown, 100% silence.
to a lesser extent
Conc. Blow--30s cooldown, 5s stun
Intercept--30s cooldown, 3s stun
Pummel--10s cooldown, 4s counterspell.
Warbringer'd Charge--15s cooldown, 1s stun

Deathknight

Mind Freeze--10s cooldown, 4s counterspell
Strangulate--30s cooldown, 5s counterspell/silence.

They may have another one, I dont know for sure. Please post if they do.

Stun's != interupts when it comes to BOSSES, but for non-boss situations, they do. I dont know if it's possible for a warrior to switch stances on a boss and Pummel, but I'm doubting that they can. This is a non-issue when it comes to DPS-spec's, druids and warriors win hands-down.

Follow-up:
I was going to put Seal of Justice, but since bosses are IMMUNE it's a non-issue, unless this mechanic is changed (or SoJ is buffed)

That leaves druids with a talented 15s interupt/stun, a 1m stun/interrupt, and this leaves us with a 30s talented (for triple the talent points) that's worst.

For warriors, 2 talent points (better than us, worst than druids) they get another interrupt on a longer cooldown than ours, but with more threat, and for deathknights, that leaves at least 2 spells that interupt, if not more.

Prinsesa · 09/20/08, 1:14 AM

Maim does not interrupt unless you have the Gladiator Gloves, requires you to be in Cat (non-tanking) form, and most importantly requires you to be in Cat form for a non-trivial amount of time (at least 2 GCDs worth, for one CP plus the Maim).

You can make a case for Feral Charge, but that isn't usable on any raid boss that has a melee attack.

Holtzhammer · 09/20/08, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Maim does not interrupt unless you have the Gladiator Gloves, requires you to be in Cat (non-tanking) form, and most importantly requires you to be in Cat form for a non-trivial amount of time (at least 2 GCDs worth, for one CP plus the Maim).

You can make a case for Feral Charge, but that isn't usable on any raid boss that has a melee attack.

Unless the Wowhead WotLK spell list is wrong, it's listing maim as having a 3s interupt.

"Finishing move that causes damage and incapacitates the target. Additional damage caused may interrupt the effect. The victim's spellcasting is also interrupted for 3 sec. Causes more damage and lasts longer per combo point:"

So a druid cant run 8 yards out, then charge back in for feral charge in a raid?

PsiVen · 09/20/08, 2:12 AM

I'm sure you've noticed that melee bosses tend to follow you and be immune to snares, so no, feral charge isn't really an option there. Maim interrupt was baselined though. Given those two it seems fair enough that druids have Bash as their tanking interrupt, and we have HoJ acting as one on a 30s cooldown if for some reason we needed it to be.

Personally I'm indifferent towards the issue of tank interrupts as the situations that demand them have been pretty sparse. I am however very concerned about the increased threat scaling and its implications for tank DPS (i.e. going back to TBC damage output).

Mode · 09/20/08, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by Holtzhammer

I dont know if it's possible for a warrior to switch stances on a boss and Pummel, but I'm doubting that they can.

You CAN, but it's pointless. Pummel and shield bash share cooldowns.

Hylo · 09/20/08, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Holtzhammer

Paladin

Repentance--1m cooldown, 10s incapacitate, but valid CC.

If you are comparing prot specs you might want to remove that. Repentance requires 30 points in retribution.