Protection and you! - Page 152

Rasczak · 09/23/08, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

I probably wouldn't go as far as "idiotic" but the actual damage of HotR itself isn't really very much. Its main selling point is that it gets your seal onto three mobs at once, or in single-target situations that it gets you ~40% more seal activity. A bonus 10% damage to HotR isn't terrible, but it's pretty meh.

Oh I know HotR isn't exploding mobs left and right but its a solid skill (that I personally hope to see buffed) that contributes solidly to our threat and damage. Compared to the t5 set bonuses +15 damage to ret aura, extra block for a single hit from a single target once per holy shield or the rather meager effect of SA giving 11% instead of 10% from t6, its not bad.

GC made a number of tanking related posts today notably this one about silence and mana burn:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Fear on bosses isn't nearly as scary as it used to be since they don't switch targets. Plus there are lots of ways around it with Tremor Totems, Fear Ward and even PvP trinkets. It's also pretty rare in LK. Bosses who silence or mana drain the tank might not even exist. We still like to silence the healers though. It makes their lives more interesting.

and

Q u o t e: "GC, what are you guys intending to do about silences/mana burns/casts like those guys in TK?"
We just can't do that in LK content, at least not on the tanks.

Also important is

We want paladins to be *competitive* MTs if that makes you feel better. If your block is worse than warriors, we'll get that fixed. It's possible to make a lot of progress with theorycrafting, but at some point everyone just needs to get out there and see what happens in a "real world" environment.

From the sound of it GC/blizzard has been over the theorycraft that the community has done and isn't that convinced, or thinks that some changes they have internally have fixed it. Alternatively they have mostly noticed the contentless whining but missed the math that shows our serious weaknesses. She also said they are going to finish the dps pass before they do a serious tanking pass.

For the first one I would love to see some wws comparisons between the various tanks. Ideally someone would have a willing raid that would redo a fight swapping only the main tank from warrior or something to paladin. Depending on the number of sexual favors given the raid might even be convinced to throw the fight at 1% or something so the attempts could be back to back and reduce the number of variables.

As far as contentless posts vs number crunching I haven't been reading the beta boards much beyond the blues. if there have been a serious lack of quality posts I am willing to write one up giving the full rundown of our problems providing someone with beta promises in advance to post it and not just link it.

fake edit: psiven <3

Halion · 09/23/08, 4:49 AM

I found this rather curious.

From WoW -> Game Info Updated 9/22

Warrior: Vitality - Protection - Updated stats/description, changed to three levels

Now, if you go to the beta talent calculator they modified, the stamina portion of this talent is gone. No more 2/4/6%.

I'll be the first to tell you, the "official" talent calculators are WAY behind the latest beta build, and this could just be a mistype or error. But it interested me enough to post it here.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator is the link to the talent calculator.

Prinsesa · 09/23/08, 5:20 AM

Originally Posted by Halion

I found this rather curious.

From WoW -> Game Info Updated 9/22

Warrior: Vitality - Protection - Updated stats/description, changed to three levels

Now, if you go to the beta talent calculator they modified, the stamina portion of this talent is gone. No more 2/4/6%.

I'll be the first to tell you, the "official" talent calculators are WAY behind the latest beta build, and this could just be a mistype or error. But it interested me enough to post it here.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator is the link to the talent calculator.

That would be a rather lopsided change:

Human Level 70 Warrior: 4444 base HP, 133 naked STA, no STA scaling
Human Level 70 Paladin: 3377 base HP, 126 naked STA, 12.36% STA scaling

The break-even point would be at 794 STA from gear

Dwarf Level 80 Warrior: 7941 base HP, 162 naked STA, no STA scaling
Human Level 80 Paladin: 6754 base HP, 143 naked STA, 12.36% STA scaling

The break-even point would be at 971 STA from gear

*Level 80 figures taken from here

bellator · 09/23/08, 5:51 AM

Agreed, it would be odd for them to lose vitality. With the 6% vitality it means the break-even point is about 1435stam before MotW, PwF and BoK are applied. Currently with heroic level tank gear only i'm pushing 1800 stam. At this level i'm already 260hp ahead of warriors. Without Vitality this would be closer to 1600 difference.

jere · 09/23/08, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

Dwarf Level 80 Warrior: 7941 base HP, 162 naked STA, no STA scaling
Human Level 80 Paladin: 6754 base HP, 143 naked STA, 12.36% STA scaling

The break-even point would be at 971 STA from gear

*Level 80 figures taken from here

Just as a note, the level 80 values for base health you got from that thread are off by 180 each. The poster used:

HP - Stam*10 = Base

rather than

HP - Stam*10 + 180 = base

as the original equation is:

base + stam*10 - 180 = HP

The base health values should be:
Level 80 Warrior: 8121
Level 80 Paladin: 6934
Delta = 1187 HP Base Health

Mortehl · 09/23/08, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rasczak

From the sound of it GC/blizzard has been over the theorycraft that the community has done and isn't that convinced, or thinks that some changes they have internally have fixed it. Alternatively they have mostly noticed the contentless whining but missed the math that shows our serious weaknesses. She also said they are going to finish the dps pass before they do a serious tanking pass.

It is worth noting this:

I farmed the best non heroic gear possible on my toon on Northrend and next to the other classes, I was noticeably inferior on the avoidance/mitigation/stamina side. Incredibly inferior on the stamina side. That being said, protadins are a threat rocket (even with the ShoR correction). At least that is solid. You don't really feel the difference between the classes until Maexxna, when you die during the second or third web with no last stand or other trick to save your ass since you already blew shield wall and a nightmare seed.

Honestly, I don't think they're terribly concerned with our tanking at the moment and the ShoR fix probably came from more Wintergrasp testing then anything else. I don't really see this as a bad thing, yet. It is a matter of continuing to collect information and highlight it. Especially the noticeable lack of Effective Health at the moment so that the right decisions can be made when they do go at it.

A few interesting tidbits I want to add as well from a general playstyle perspective:

- The Avenger's Shield glyph is amazing. I am so adjusted to this that frankly, I have a difficult time going back to live. Ranged Shield Slam? Yes please.

- It is possible to defense cap FASTER in WoTLK then you could in TBC. The people bitching about it haven't put the effort in, plain and simple. There is a nice mix of crafted plate, reputation plate, and drop plate in there for you to get it done in about 3 nights of concerted effort.

- Despite the homogenization of gear, I am very much surprised at how much BR/BV plate you can find still.

- I personally have found my threat so overwhelming at this point that I am definitely sticking with a traditional tanking weapon. I realize that the threat gen from the Titansteel Guardian is better, but if I'm providing enough TPS for balls out DPS already.. I'd be doing the raid a disservice by not trying to close the already far too wide EH gap.

jere · 09/23/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

It is worth noting this:

I farmed the best non heroic gear possible on my toon on Northrend and next to the other classes, I was noticeably inferior on the avoidance/mitigation/stamina side. Incredibly inferior on the stamina side. That being said, protadins are a threat rocket (even with the ShoR correction). At least that is solid. You don't really feel the difference between the classes until Maexxna, when you die during the second or third web with no last stand or other trick to save your ass since you already blew shield wall and a nightmare seed.

Honestly, I don't think they're terribly concerned with our tanking at the moment and the ShoR fix probably came from more Wintergrasp testing then anything else. I don't really see this as a bad thing, yet. It is a matter of continuing to collect information and highlight it. Especially the noticeable lack of Effective Health at the moment so that the right decisions can be made when they do go at it.

That is my concern. Granted I am not a 80 yet, so all I have is the math, but I calculating some decent HP (and of course EH) gaps between the two now. It would be great if you could post this feedback on the beta boards too (you might have already done so), but some of the posts made indicate they are seeing us within 2% of warriors, which they are ok with. I am a bit more concerned.

As a side note, the Glyph of Seal of Vengeance seems good: 10 expertise while the seal is active.

I am thinking going with the judgment one (10% more judgement damage), SoV one (10 expertise), and the RD one (8% taunt hit)

Yenadar · 09/23/08, 9:52 AM

To those chattering about DPS caster weapons being superior threat to traditional Tanking weapons (even slightly, moderately, or massively) ...consider this:

Our gearing, enchanting, and gemming choices have -always- been about the choice between avoidance, mitigation, and threat.

I think it may be entirely intended that our best threat weapons are not avoidance/mitigation weapons. I don't think Blizzard's comments regarding tanking weapons and same-gear-as-warrior should be taken to mean that there is 1 gear-set which is superior than all others for all circumstances for all classes.

Warriors themselves have DPS weapon alternatives for a threat boost, at the cost of avoidance/mitigation. Just because their threat weapons aren't caster weapons doesn't mean our threat weapons shouldn't be either.

Getting the best avoidance/mitigation weapon -SHOULD- mean that we lose a bit of threat. It is the way with the rest of our gear slots, enchantments, and gems, no reason it shouldn't apply to weapons as well. Blizzard has just done an excellent job to keep that threat loss approximately equivalent to the other tanks, instead of a 40-70% threat loss that Live experiences.

..and my threat on Beta is so ridiculously high, that unless they nerf it heavily, I could tank with a Sharpened Stiletto without suffering that badly. End game level 80 may see different, but not as it stands now.

Thorgred · 09/23/08, 10:01 AM

I made this post over at Maintankadin regarding our stat scaling:

Originally Posted by Thorgred

Scaling Values:
From a spreadsheet that i believe is mostly correct, given a spec with Seals of the Pure but not reckoning:
Note that the first stat (TPS) is before buffs, and the 2nd stat (TPS per iPoint) = after kings/divine strength and shows the threat per relative value of the stat.

Both Seals:
1 Weapon DPS = 2.1 TPS
1 BV = 0.59 TPS = 1.04 TPS per iPoint

Using SOV:
1 AP = 0.5 TPS = 1 TPS per iPoint
1 SP = .38 TPS = 0.44 TPS per iPoint
1 Str = 1.25 TPS = 1.58 TPS per iPoint
1 Sta = 0.114 TPS = 0.21 TPS per iPoint
1 Sec weapon speed = 3 TPS

Thus as an edit to my previous post, using SOV and an epic spellpower weapon:
1 DPS = 2.1 TPS as melee weapon
1 Sacrificed DPS = (7*0.38 ) = 2.66 TPS as a spellpower weapon.
Which puts spellpower on a weapon as the best scaling stat, followed by strength and block value.

Edited to compensate for change to ShoR scaling.
And also with reference to what I posted earlier on that same thread:

Originally Posted by Thorgred

You also need to look at the difference in spellpower weapons come WoTLK:
in live, all spelldamage weapons are set to 41.5 DPS and sub 2.0 speeds. Spelldamage on weapons is calculated by first finding what the weapon dps would be, taking 41.5 and multiplying this result by 4.
(ie every 1dps sacrificed = 4 spelldamage)

In WOTLK there seems to be a different formula whereby a certain % of weapon DPS is sacrificed, and the spellpower gained per dps sacrificed changes with item quality. This means that epic spellpower weapons are far far better than green spellpower.

Formula:
Sacrificed DPS = 42.5% of weapon DPS.
Spellpower gained per dps sacrificed:
Green = 5.5
Blue = 6
Epic = ~7

The Titansteel Guardian gains 8 spellpower per dps sacrificed - this may be an oversight from old itemization formulas and explains why this seems to be the best tanking weapon so far.

In perspective, if our pink pompom followed the same formula as LK weapons, it would do ~57 DPS and have 298 Spelldamage.

Cathela · 09/23/08, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

- The Avenger's Shield glyph is amazing. I am so adjusted to this that frankly, I have a difficult time going back to live. Ranged Shield Slam? Yes please.

- It is possible to defense cap FASTER in WoTLK then you could in TBC. The people bitching about it haven't put the effort in, plain and simple. There is a nice mix of crafted plate, reputation plate, and drop plate in there for you to get it done in about 3 nights of concerted effort.

I still think I'd rather keep the 3-target AS for the extra utility, but now that AS is instant-cast and its damage has been buffed considerably I do see the appeal of the glyph, and I find myself lusting to have both versions at the same time. It would be even nicer if the glyph reduced the cooldown to, say, 15 seconds; that would turn AS into a serious ranged-tanking tool.

As far as the defense cap, it still looks pretty tough to me. Assuming the base crit rate for mobs is still 5%(?) then you still need 140 defense skill above the level 80 base to become uncrittable (125 for -5% crit, 15 for +3 level mobs), which comes out to 689 defense rating at level 80. A quick scan of WoWhead shows that the best you can do with blue/green WotLK items is 798 skill, and this includes a lot of items that would be considered substandard at level 80 if you weren't specifically going for defense (the crafted saronite bracers and belt, for example). You can "trade down" to lower defense items in some slots to boost stam and other stats, but I still don't see a lot of room to work with. When level 80 enchants get fully implemented, that may open up some more room, but it still looks pretty rough to me.

Keep in mind also that the biggest complaints have come from DKs, who have two fewer slots to work with if they want to tank with a two-hander, which is far superior to dual-wielding for parry reasons. If you get no defense from either hand, the max possible with blue/green gear is 727, which barely leaves you any space at all.

Originally Posted by Halion

I found this rather curious....

Now, if you go to the beta talent calculator they modified, the stamina portion of this talent is gone. No more 2/4/6%.

I'll be the first to tell you, the "official" talent calculators are WAY behind the latest beta build, and this could just be a mistype or error. But it interested me enough to post it here.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator is the link to the talent calculator.

There may also be some changes in store for us that haven't made their way out into the sunlight yet. Frankly I think the whole idea of balancing a flat health gap with a difference in scaling is a bad idea to begin with, because it guarantees you're going to have an imbalance somewhere in the gear progression. They really should just change one of our two +6% stam talents to give us a flat hp boost instead (+30% of base hp or whatever) and let us progress more or less on the same footing as warriors all the way along.

Originally Posted by PsiVen

With regard to the 1st rank of ShoR, I'm a little curious whether they're willing to let us slide through the last month of 70 raiding with a severe threat deficiency. If they aren't the balance will be difficult to manage when we are missing one of our core 80 abilities. Exorcism and AS taking ShoR's place in the rotation mitigates it enough that it won't be an issue for those of us in Sunwell, but is it even a large consideration?

I guess it depends on whether they stick with this "every tank gets a crapton of threat now!" model. If 3.0 level 70 warriors are producing 300% of the threat of dps and paladins are only producing 230%, then it doesn't really matter. If they go through their next "tanking pass" or whatever and decide to scale everyone down to the point where tanks have to be well-geared/skilled to keep up with dps threat, then it could be a problem.

I was a lot more concerned about this until we discovered the "baked-in Salv" effect of RF; as it is right now I don't think lacking SotR will be much of a problem.

Originally Posted by Rasczak

Oh I know HotR isn't exploding mobs left and right but its a solid skill (that I personally hope to see buffed) that contributes solidly to our threat and damage. Compared to the t5 set bonuses +15 damage to ret aura, extra block for a single hit from a single target once per holy shield or the rather meager effect of SA giving 11% instead of 10% from t6, its not bad.

I think we're basically in agreement on this; it's one of the forgettable set bonuses (along with the ones you listed) rather than one of the good ones like the +10% cons damage for 4-piece T6. (One man's "meh" is another man's "not bad".)

Originally Posted by Yenadar

(snipping other good points)

Getting the best avoidance/mitigation weapon -SHOULD- mean that we lose a bit of threat. It is the way with the rest of our gear slots, enchantments, and gems, no reason it shouldn't apply to weapons as well. Blizzard has just done an excellent job to keep that threat loss approximately equivalent to the other tanks, instead of a 40-70% threat loss that Live experiences.

Yeah, that sounds about right. I think a lot of us were assuming that the new mechanics would mean we'd always favor melee weapons, even for threat. That may or may not be the case (it could still turn out that way depending on how the devs end up tweaking the final numbers), but it doesn't really matter a lot; it was always the massive loss in threat from using a mitigation weapon that was the real issue.

Even if we do end up in a state where melee weapons are better than caster weapons for single-target threat, we're still going to want a caster weapon for those massive-AoE situations (i.e., 12+ targets) where boosting Cons threat will be more important than anything else.

Originally Posted by Thorgred

In perspective, if our pink pompom followed the same formula as LK weapons, it would do ~57 DPS and have 298 Spelldamage.

I believe the official name is "Princess Peaches' Umbrella".

bellator · 09/23/08, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

A few interesting tidbits I want to add as well from a general playstyle perspective:

1) The Avenger's Shield glyph is amazing. I am so adjusted to this that frankly, I have a difficult time going back to live. Ranged Shield Slam? Yes please.

2) It is possible to defense cap FASTER in WoTLK then you could in TBC. The people bitching about it haven't put the effort in, plain and simple. There is a nice mix of crafted plate, reputation plate, and drop plate in there for you to get it done in about 3 nights of concerted effort.

3) Despite the homogenization of gear, I am very much surprised at how much BR/BV plate you can find still.

4) I personally have found my threat so overwhelming at this point that I am definitely sticking with a traditional tanking weapon. I realize that the threat gen from the Titansteel Guardian is better, but if I'm providing enough TPS for balls out DPS already.. I'd be doing the raid a disservice by not trying to close the already far too wide EH gap.

My perspective on a couple of these is a little different

1) Whilst Avenger's shield glyph is nice for bosses for the extra threat I personally find no threat issues on bosses, and thus prefer the original version of the ability as it help more in control trash packs and the like.

2) It is certainly not possible to defense cap quicker in wotlk than you could in tbc. When tbc first came out you could almost defense cap through the quest rewards on the the way to 70, with next to no additional work required. Here this is not possible. I'm not saying it's hard. Once can get the mats for the craftable blue armor in an evening then spend a couple evening in heroics filling out ring/neck/trinket slots etc, and get a shield crafted / badge loot etc. However it's not easier than tbc. The problem i see is not that it is hard (or relatively harder) to get defense capped, but more that you are restriced on which items you can get. You are forced to go for the high def items and not really pay attention to the other stats they provide.

I do agree with the BR/BV point, and am very happy for it, and as you say threat is insane, i'm just focusing on defensive stats (which a spellpower weapon cant give).

Stamina is also a little overhwhelming as well. I did a naxx 10-man last night, and fully raid buffed/flasked i hit 35khp (and i only have 1 drop from 10 mans so far, the gloves)

jere · 09/23/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Cathela

There may also be some changes in store for us that haven't made their way out into the sunlight yet. Frankly I think the whole idea of balancing a flat health gap with a difference in scaling is a bad idea to begin with, because it guarantees you're going to have an imbalance somewhere in the gear progression. They really should just change one of our two +6% stam talents to give us a flat hp boost instead (+30% of base hp or whatever) and let us progress more or less on the same footing as warriors all the way along.

I like this idea, having Combat Expertise or Sacred Duty increase our base health by some percentage (so it scales as we level, but never scales with gear stats) and the other give us the 6% stamina scaling (which would match warriors) would be an interesting way to handle things.

The base health scaling would need to be enough to cover the base health difference and the ranged slot, or it would need to cover the base health difference and we would need only slightly higher scaling (haven't done the math for a good number) to cover the ranged slot difference.

Mortehl · 09/23/08, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

1) Whilst Avenger's shield glyph is nice for bosses for the extra threat I personally find no threat issues on bosses, and thus prefer the original version of the ability as it help more in control trash packs and the like.

You'd think that but to be honest with you, hotr a timed consecrate, and good positioning eliminates the need for a multi hit frisbee. I don't have trouble controlling trash packs at all. OTOH, the extra oomf of a 200% AS.. Dear god It is amazing.

On another note, yes the Seal of Vengeance glyph is hot shit too. GG almost dodge capping as a dwarf without any expertise gear.

Originally Posted by bellator

2) It is certainly not possible to defense cap quicker in wotlk than you could in tbc. When tbc first came out you could almost defense cap through the quest rewards on the the way to 70, with next to no additional work required. Here this is not possible. I'm not saying it's hard. Once can get the mats for the craftable blue armor in an evening then spend a couple evening in heroics filling out ring/neck/trinket slots etc, and get a shield crafted / badge loot etc. However it's not easier than tbc. The problem i see is not that it is hard (or relatively harder) to get defense capped, but more that you are restriced on which items you can get. You are forced to go for the high def items and not really pay attention to the other stats they provide.

Again time invested from one to another. You can get yourself defense capped in 2 days from when you ding 80 and be in heroics immediately getting yourself ready for Naxx. I felt my personal 60-70 experience was tougher then my 70-80 on the beta and that is the point of reference I use to make my pontifications.

Originally Posted by bellator

I do agree with the BR/BV point, and am very happy for it, and as you say threat is insane, i'm just focusing on defensive stats (which a spellpower weapon cant give).

Indeed. I think there is WAY too much hemming and hawwing going on over this.

Originally Posted by bellator

Stamina is also a little overhwhelming as well. I did a naxx 10-man last night, and fully raid buffed/flasked i hit 35khp (and i only have 1 drop from 10 mans so far, the gloves)

Are you a Paladin? I'm sitting at 25k raid buffed atm. Granted I'm still in a boatload of blues though. I recognize my HP is low. I refuse to use any PVP gear on the beta as I'm trying to test the pure PVE aspects of the game. I also have belt, both rings, trinket, and helm from my T6/Sunwell gear on. once I finally replace those then perhaps I could see that kind of HP.

Cathela · 09/23/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

Again time invested from one to another. You can get yourself defense capped in 2 days from when you ding 80 and be in heroics immediately getting yourself ready for Naxx. I felt my personal 60-70 experience was tougher then my 70-80 on the beta and that is the point of reference I use to make my pontifications.

...

I also have belt, both rings, trinket, and helm from my T6/Sunwell gear on. once I finally replace those then perhaps I could see that kind of HP.

One of the issues for a "new" tank in WotLK reaching the defense cap is that there's only one blue/green trinket in WotLK that gives +defense. So if you're carrying (I assume) the Gurtogg trinket into WotLK, you've got a decently good head start over someone starting from scratch.

That could be fixed with some itemization work, but I think it still goes back to bellator's point earlier: Certainly it's possible to reach the defense cap in blues and greens at 80, but it constrains your gear choice quite a bit, and basically removes a lot of the tanking gear from consideration.

EDIT: Also, regarding the health thing, does 25k feel comfortable in Naxx? A lot of this discussion about becoming uncrittable depends on how much stamina tanks need to have.

And Bell, if you really do have 35k, how does that feel? Just right? Too much?

Denogran · 09/23/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

Are you a Paladin? I'm sitting at 25k raid buffed atm. Granted I'm still in a boatload of blues though. I recognize my HP is low. I refuse to use any PVP gear on the beta as I'm trying to test the pure PVE aspects of the game. I also have belt, both rings, trinket, and helm from my T6/Sunwell gear on. once I finally replace those then perhaps I could see that kind of HP.

25k buffed is pretty low, no? I have 24,500 in a stacked group right now, and while that'll drop in 3.02 (commanding and imp not stacking), I'd be pretty disappointed if my stamina only increases by a coupla thousand over the next 10 levels.