Protection and you! - Page 153

Cathela · 09/23/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

25k buffed is pretty low, no? I have 24,500 in a stacked group right now, and while that'll drop in 3.02 (commanding and imp not stacking), I'd be pretty disappointed if my stamina only increases by a coupla thousand over the next 10 levels.

Well, get ready for disappointment, then.

A lot of the level 80 blue tanking plate has nominally higher stamina than T6/Sunwell pieces, but when you factor in the relative lack of gem slots, you end up in about the same place as far as stamina on gear goes. I haven't made a serious attempt to gear up for Naxx or anything, so maybe I just haven't seen enough gear to judge, but I really haven't seen any major stamina upgrades.

As I recall, the best-geared pre-BC tanks in full Naxx gear reached right around 10k without popping cooldowns, and a typical blue-geared TBC tank sat at around 13-14k. If you account for the change in the itemization cost of stamina, that puts them at just about the same place. So yeah, it looks like the starting level for WotLK tank hp is the same as the peak of TBC tank hp (and it makes sense as a design goal, if you think about it.)

Halion · 09/23/08, 5:48 PM

Regarding the Avenger's Shield glyph, I will be using it. The 2 staples seem to be Righteous Defense (no resisted taunts is win) and Seal of Vengeance (+10 expertise is really nice). This leaves you with 1 more Major slot for a threat glyph. Both the Judgement and AS glyphs are threat increases.

In a standard 969 cycle, you'll be using Judgement every 9 seconds, and trying to sub in an AS every 30. I haven't bothered to do the number crunching as threat really hasn't been a concern. If they lower the threat output of tanks to make threat become more of a pressing issue, I'll look into changing my view. However, my feeling is that the AS glyph is more threat on a single target than the Judgement one.

Now, the AS glyph, with the new 10 second daze, hitting 3 mobs is more annoying than helpful. My favorite new trick is to assign the target I'm going to smack to be CC'ed (obviously not sapped, but sheep / hex / root / shackle / trap all work fine). Throw my shield, that mob gets CC'ed, the bonus is I already have aggro, when the CC breaks, that mob comes running right for me, not the CC'er. Then pick up the rest of the pack with HotR and Consecrate. I don't have to wait 15 seconds for the mobs to actually get to me this way. I'd much rather my shield had a 3 second silence than a 10 second daze, but that is another matter.

Helot · 09/23/08, 6:06 PM

Imo, Taunts are for trash. Most bosses cannot be taunted, So increasing your threat on a boss is better than having an unresistable taunt.

Not that the glyph is bad, but seeing as how our threat has been buffed to gung-ho levels, DPS shouldn't have to worry too much about pulling aggro (on the main target). I think the glyph is useful, especially if your undergeared for an instance group (T4 running w/ T6 players, for example), where you will be taunting all the time.

Depending on the wording/implementation of the Blood Glyph, I may see myself taking that for OTing roles. If it's a straight 10->20% SA, it would be great. Damage yourself, deal holy threat, get extra mana back to sustain your threat.

If it's 10%->11%.. well, that's pretty useless.

Even so, I'd only be taking that glyph if that was the case. I find myself using Righteousness over SoV anyway, but that's because of the less-than-100% chance to stack that we have right now. Come 3.0, I'll be using SoR for trash, and SoV for bosses. (Assuming i don't go ret. Apparently it's pretty OP.)

Halion · 09/23/08, 6:34 PM

There are enough bosses that require taunted transitions that that glyph will be used by every serious tank. How many times did you wipe on old 4H because your warriors didn't have 4pc T3? How many Brutallus wipes are because the taunt got resisted and the healers switched targets, and the boss didn't? How many ZA timed runs failed getting their bear because a taunt failed on Narlak and the MT got the bleed debuff and the bleeds?

Clearly not every boss is tauntable, but enough are that it is a meaningful glyph, trash is just a bonus.

I will be using SoV on almost everything, SoR got nerfed rather fierce. Also, stacking SoV on multiple mobs, both with HotR and tabbing, allows an even distribution of threat on an aoe pull. Having a high threat dot ticking is a nice addition to consecrate.

I can see Blood being the top OT seal, but I'd rather use the glyph of Spiritual Attunement than the Blood one.

On another note, this may be the final nail in coffin for spell power weapons. From GC:

Wer'e going to buff Hammer of the Righteous. That should even out with the Shield of Righteousness nerf, plus give you a little more reason to hand that +spell power blade back to the warlock.

This also makes our 2 pc set bonus look better.

Denogran · 09/23/08, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Well, get ready for disappointment, then.

A lot of the level 80 blue tanking plate has nominally higher stamina than T6/Sunwell pieces, but when you factor in the relative lack of gem slots, you end up in about the same place as far as stamina on gear goes. I haven't made a serious attempt to gear up for Naxx or anything, so maybe I just haven't seen enough gear to judge, but I really haven't seen any major stamina upgrades.

As I recall, the best-geared pre-BC tanks in full Naxx gear reached right around 10k without popping cooldowns, and a typical blue-geared TBC tank sat at around 13-14k. If you account for the change in the itemization cost of stamina, that puts them at just about the same place. So yeah, it looks like the starting level for WotLK tank hp is the same as the peak of TBC tank hp (and it makes sense as a design goal, if you think about it.)

Ya I guess that makes sense. I certainly wasn't an amazingly geared tank (well, anything) coming into TBC, so I don't remember that as much. It's sorta disappointing that outside of threat, I'll be a worse tank at 80 against Sunwell bosses than I am at 70 against the same bosses (due to the diminishing value of ratings). Guess that's how gear resets go though.

Although, looking at that a bit more, a 3-4k increase on 10k would correspond to a 7-9k increase on 25k. They've said they're not increasing the stamina nearly as drastically as they did for TBC, but little stamina and an avoidance decrease means we're really not gaining a lot over the next 10 levels.

Except threat. Although the more I think about the changes to threat, the more concerned I am about tanking. What separates a good tank from a bad tank now is the ability to generate threat while keeping yourself as intact as possible. Changing your gear to match the fight, optimizing your button sequences (granted not the hardest thing on a paladin), some positioning, hitting your emergency buttons when appropriate. If threat is no longer a real issues, a lot of the interesting part of tanking will disappear. Ya, we get more buttons to press. But if the order in which we press those buttons doesn't matter as much, or if missing one here or there doesn't matter, doesn't tanking get a lot more dull?

Halion · 09/23/08, 7:05 PM

I think threat being made easier opens the door for more people to try tanking.

I know when I was a healer, I had a small friends list of tanks I was willing to run instances with, it simply wasn't worth the pain / time of wiping with that "newb" tank as he figured out how to do his job.

Top progression guilds are still going to require top notch tanks, and depending on how Blizzard balances threat scaling, we may be pushed to our limits again in T8 or T9. Honestly, I never had any threat issues in Kara or other T4 instances. Once dps was fully geared, threat became a much bigger concern. Perhaps even with our dps / threat scaling better this expansion, the gap will close as gear levels increase.

Tilted · 09/23/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

Except threat. Although the more I think about the changes to threat, the more concerned I am about tanking. What separates a good tank from a bad tank now is the ability to generate threat while keeping yourself as intact as possible. Changing your gear to match the fight, optimizing your button sequences (granted not the hardest thing on a paladin), some positioning, hitting your emergency buttons when appropriate. If threat is no longer a real issues, a lot of the interesting part of tanking will disappear. Ya, we get more buttons to press. But if the order in which we press those buttons doesn't matter as much, or if missing one here or there doesn't matter, doesn't tanking get a lot more dull?

That very thought crossed my mind, but the more I think about it the less I'm concerned. Good players always find a way to stand out. There's no percentage they can put on a talent or spell that teaches bad players how to properly LoS pull, or how to position a pack of mobs composed of varying types (melee, ranged, caster) such that your AoE can quickly dispatch them. Now that they're adding emergency buttons for all tanks, it allows us to focus more on survival rather than the threat meter, hoping that the next Shadow Bolt or whatever doesn't crit. While it's true that threat generation as a whole will be less of an "art" than it is today, I think it's safe to say most of us have had to try way too damn hard to hold onto aggro the past few months and a shift in the other direction is probably welcome.

Denogran · 09/23/08, 7:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tilted

That very thought crossed my mind, but the more I think about it the less I'm concerned. Good players always find a way to stand out. There's no percentage they can put on a talent or spell that teaches bad players how to properly LoS pull, or how to position a pack of mobs composed of varying types (melee, ranged, caster) such that your AoE can quickly dispatch them. Now that they're adding emergency buttons for all tanks, it allows us to focus more on survival rather than the threat meter, hoping that the next Shadow Bolt or whatever doesn't crit. While it's true that threat generation as a whole will be less of an "art" than it is today, I think it's safe to say most of us have had to try way too damn hard to hold onto aggro the past few months and a shift in the other direction is probably welcome.

Ya, I mean this isn't even so much about me standing out, it's about me being bored. I'll give an example of my favorite fight to tank so far - M'uru. Solo-tanking the Sentinels and the voids is the most interesting tanking job I've had. Not only do I have to worry about threat in a serious way, but I also have to worry about survival (they hit like beasts), and then on top of that positioning and spatial awareness are a big issue. Is the job tough as hell? Certainly, and I definitely appreciate the desire by Blizzard to introduce more people into the rarefied group that is tanking( My guild has 4 tanks right now - compared to ~30 dps and 15 healers ). But it's damn interesting, and a lot of fun to play. Now take away threat, and you have the Flames of Azzinoth. Fun, but not nearly as compelling (Also, eyebeams can burn in hell....). Take away threat and position and you're left with spawn tank on M'uru, a job that's stupidly boring.

Also, I'd consider generating threat to be the most active part of a tank's life. Keeping yourself alive is mostly just remembering to hit holy shield and ironshields on cooldown (judging if you have mother's trinket), and knowing when to pop a healthpot or trinket. Moving makes things more interesting, but if the only thing you're really concerned with is keeping holy shield up while you're doing it, because as long as you're halfways good at the threat moves you'll be alright, well that drops the entertainment down quite a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like to feel like I can't generate enough threat. But I think fights where the dps is extremely close behind are the most interesting, and where I have to time cooldowns and pots in order to just stay ahead are faaaar more interesting (see: Brutallus, RoS). Sure, I love rolling through Deadmines or Heroic Shattered Halls every once in a while and consecrating the place to oblivion. But for interesting raid tanking? Gets dull rather quickly.

♦ Oggie · 09/23/08, 11:14 PM

I love that you equated HSH with Deadmines.

Not that you're wrong, and I agree with it. I love the TPS minigame and I hope they don't box it out completely, but I'm pretty okay with them doing away with it for 5mans/some easier 10mans- sure, it'll be harder to tell if someone's a good tank, but on the other hand it'll matter a lot less.

Edit:
Oh and it bears repeating, thank GOD ironshields are going bye-bye.

PsiVen · 09/24/08, 1:52 AM

Level 80 Warrior: 8121
Level 80 Paladin: 6934
Delta = 1187 HP Base Health

Food for thought: The Nesingwary 4000 is 42 stam + 6 socket bonus +24 blue gem = 72 stam, or 792 HP with Kings.
With warriors at 0% scaling and paladins at 12%, the raidbuffed stamina break-even point with this weapon is 1847 stamina (25404 HP). This is around the mark of blues. Quite plausible that if warriors will have the best mitigation that that may end up with the worst health pool.

Kaylee · 09/24/08, 2:30 AM

I'd be happy with that. The health difference doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't want equal base health and scaling to a warrior. What we should be asking for is equal (or as close as possible) effective health. If paladins have higher health, but warriors have slightly higher mitigation... that's an interesting way for it to even out. If we get to tier 9 content and the scaling means that paladins are pulling way ahead too far, Blizzard can drop in a new ranged weapon for warriors with higher stamina, or they could put slightly less stamina on the paladin tier sets.

Stamina scaling doesn't have to mean we become monsters later on, because raiding paladin and warrior tanks (and death knights) probably won't all be wearing the exact same gear.

Alliera · 09/24/08, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by PsiVen

Food for thought: The Nesingwary 4000 is 42 stam + 6 socket bonus +24 blue gem = 72 stam, or 792 HP with Kings.
With warriors at 0% scaling and paladins at 12%, the raidbuffed stamina break-even point with this weapon is 1847 stamina (25404 HP). This is around the mark of blues. Quite plausible that if warriors will have the best mitigation that that may end up with the worst health pool.

Warriors have 6% scaling, though. Assuming the delta is (42 + 6 + 24)x11 + 1187 = 1979, the break-even point is 2829 stamina.

1.06 x 1.06 x 1.1 x stamina = delta_health + 1.06 x 1.1 x stamina => .06996 x stamina = delta_health

What we get out of this is obviously health from stamina, so simply divide the final number by 10 to get the stamina equalization point -- or instead of dividing by .06996, divide by .6996.

That means the equalization point is roughly delta_health x 1.43.

jere · 09/24/08, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by PsiVen

Food for thought: The Nesingwary 4000 is 42 stam + 6 socket bonus +24 blue gem = 72 stam, or 792 HP with Kings.
With warriors at 0% scaling and paladins at 12%, the raidbuffed stamina break-even point with this weapon is 1847 stamina (25404 HP). This is around the mark of blues. Quite plausible that if warriors will have the best mitigation that that may end up with the worst health pool.

Well, it is actually a bit higher than that. I don't have time to go through all the details at this point (going to an all day class at work), so I will quote a post I made on another thread working out the math:

Just incase anyone is wondering, the HP crossover point is about 50k HP (or 3263 total stamina from buffs, gear, and base stamina => 3120 stamina from buffs and gear)

NOTE: 3263 stamina is the stamina before CE and SD and BoK. After those, we are looking at 4032 total stamina (on the paladin character sheet).

Paladins have base health of 6934 now at 80 (from EJ and Maintankadin)
Assuming untalented Commanding Shout or Blood Pact and a 650 health flask (from wowhead):

6934 + 1.06*1.06*1.1*10*(143 + 3120) - 180 + 2255 + 650 = 49988.3748 HP fully raid buffed.

Crossover calculation (human warrior to human paladin):

[1187 + 1.06*1.1*10*(159 + 78) - 1.06*1.06*1.1*10*(143)]/0.6996 = 3120 Stamina from buffs and gear (no talents)

From EJ/Maintankadin:
Level 80 Warrior: 8121
Level 80 Paladin: 6934
Delta = 1187 HP Base Health

The crossover point happens when we hit around 50k raid buffed HP (kings, CS/BP, 650 health flask, fort, MotW, etc) which comes out to be around 4032 character sheet stamina, which is 3120 stamina from gear and buffs and of course our base stamina of 143 (for human).

Run the equations:
Paladin HP = 6934 + 1.06*1.06*1.1*10*(143 + s) - 180 + 2255 + 650
Warrior HP = 8121 + 1.06*1.1*10*(159 + 78 + s) - 180 + 2255 + 650

Note that you can replace the 78 with a 72 since you are using a blue gem (I used an epic) and you can swap the base stamina values for whatever race you prefer (I used human in both). Set them equal and solve for s, which is the stamina from gear and buffs before talents and BoK kick in.

♦ Oggie · 09/24/08, 9:51 AM

I think there's a miscommunication going on Jere- the newest version of the beta talents on the official calculator has Vitality not doing anything for Stam for warriors: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator

I'm reasonably sure that warriors currently on beta do not have this version, and it's certainly not from the MMO talents.

Edit:
Okay, no idea what the state these talents are in. Warriors have two improved TC taletns, the prot pally tree is basically from 3-4 patches ago, this is just a huge mishmash.

bellator · 09/24/08, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mortehl

You'd think that but to be honest with you, hotr a timed consecrate, and good positioning eliminates the need for a multi hit frisbee. I don't have trouble controlling trash packs at all. OTOH, the extra oomf of a 200% AS.. Dear god It is amazing.

Multi hit AS isn't needed for control, i just find it a little easier. Going through naxx, it's just a little easier if you have a pack of 5 for ensuring all adds stick to you. Can open with this, judge/exo whoever wasnt his, then with HotR/cons, dps can attack whatever they like.

Originally Posted by Mortehl

Are you a Paladin? I'm sitting at 25k raid buffed atm. Granted I'm still in a boatload of blues though. I recognize my HP is low. I refuse to use any PVP gear on the beta as I'm trying to test the pure PVE aspects of the game. I also have belt, both rings, trinket, and helm from my T6/Sunwell gear on. once I finally replace those then perhaps I could see that kind of HP.

Yes I am a paladin, however this isnt the big difference. I am using the two insane JC stamina trinkets, with 3 +41stam gems. I also have most enchants as stamina. My gear however isnt that great. I only have 1 item from 10-mans(gloves) and 1 item (belt) from badges. When tier 8 comes, I think hitting 40k won't be much of a problem

Originally Posted by Cathela

And Bell, if you really do have 35k, how does that feel? Just right? Too much?

I do really have 35k fully buffed, not lieing :p. As to how it feels, its a little tricky to say as i feel 10-man naxx is currently horribly tuned in terms of consistency (wont go into it here too much though). As you know the maximum damage throughput a tank can take can be no more than the maximum healing throughput the healers can do. With the mana issues etc coming with wrath the later isnt massive. What this means is that:-

1) On fights like patchwerk, maexanna, where the tanks are taking the majority of raid damage, having the high stamina helps with non-avoided string of hatefuls or a poorly executed web wrab etc.
2) On fights like 4HM where a healer has to heal a tank+marks+meteor it means the tank is only taking 2.5k damage per 2 sec in melee hits and 4k meteors every 10 seconds, then the HP is ridiculous, and you could tank it with 20khp.

Thus, personally, i would say it ranges from ok to too much. Personally i think around 30k would be more suitable, but then work needs to be done to tune up healers mana a little and in turn tune up damage output of fights like 4HM to create some consisteny accross the instance.