Protection and you! - Page 158

Nevets_69 · 09/30/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

Personally I'd suggest that the proc effect be changed to something like +15% block chance and another +30% block value, or something of that nature. Our shield mechanics right now are pretty boring by comparison to Prot warriors, and a change like this would liven things up a bit.

Are you suggesting a flat increase to block chance of 15%? or have the talent add an additional 15% to Holy Shield?

If it's the former, then I think that option is just a little bit OP, as we'll never take a straight hit anymore. Obviously we'll still take significant damage because you can only stack block value so high, but still, we'll be mitigating EVERY attack.

If you intend the latter, then I'm not sure I like that idea much either. I like the current implementation of Redoubt, I like the when hit proc of increasing your block chance. It is/was really nice pre-3.0 as a way to often bridge the lag gap when refreshing HS. But as you said, it is very helpful for when you're tanking a large number of mobs and your HS charges are getting used up (i.e. MH, ZA, or even Prince in Kara). And if you still run heroics then it shines even more.

I understand your argument, and it definitely is not a must have talent, but I think that's exactly why they rolled it into the 30% BV talent. I guess I'm just saying that I like the talent, and don't really think it needs to be changed. Although I wouldn't mind seeing HS have a slightly higher chance to block percentage, since warriors get 75%. Of course I guess this doens't really matter as much anymore since bosses no longer crush so I'll just stop talking.

Helot · 09/30/08, 6:59 PM

I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.

This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.

Nevets_69 · 09/30/08, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Helot

I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.

This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.

Ah, well that makes a whole lot more sense. I definitely support such a change.

Kayoto · 10/01/08, 12:25 AM

Hammer of the Righteous is now hitting for 4x Weapon DPS on the PTR/Beta, apparently.

I was personally hoping for 5x Weapon DPS to be the final incarnation, but oh well. 4x is still good.

Cathela · 10/01/08, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Helot

I believe he meant that it would stay as a proc on hit, but only have a 15% increase in block Chance, and a 30% increase in block value for the duration of the proc.

This would be in addition to the 30% block value increase it has right now.

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

But really, I'm just pointing out that out of the 30% block-rate buff you get from the talent, you're rarely going to actually benefit from more than half of it, so it'd be worthwhile to trade the other half for something else.

• Chicken · 10/01/08, 4:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kayoto

Hammer of the Righteous is now hitting for 4x Weapon DPS on the PTR/Beta, apparently.

I was personally hoping for 5x Weapon DPS to be the final incarnation, but oh well. 4x is still good.

It's probably intended to make it so that even WotLK spell power weapons are less attractive than WotLK melee weapons. It's now the case that WotLK epic spell power weapons are 2% better before the extra stats, which is close enough to call it a wash, especially as the melee weapon is more likely to also have some strength on it which would tip the scales in it's favor.

Also makes it that for blue and green quality weapons, an equal item level melee weapon is definitely always better.

Changing it to five times the weapon damage would make epic melee weapons better even before stats, but I'd say four times is a fine number.

ZulazeeluIcecrown · 10/01/08, 12:05 PM

I just need a double-check on my quick in-head math here. If I'm too cheap to buy a new enchant, and I possess a Cudgel of Consecration enchanted with +40 Spellpower, and a King's Defender with Mongoose (yes yes my gear is much worse than the standards of most Elitist Jerk posters, heh), I'll still be better off using the Cudgel during the 3.0 -> Wrath time period, correct? At least in terms of pure threat (and possibly otherwise, as I have a +15 Stamina gem in the Cudgel). However, I should be OK with the King's Defender if I decide the extra defensive stats on it are useful, assuming I'm running with other Badge/ZA/Kara geared DPS, also correct?

And then the last question, which I haven't seen asked yet: in 3.0 and in Wrath, will we still be best off with Wizard Oil, or would some more melee-oriented temporary enchant be better (sharpening stone, etc)?

Endoscient · 10/01/08, 1:33 PM

Hey, I made the Tankadin (and Healadin) modules for Rawr. If you don't know what Rawr is, it is a dedicated Theorycrafting program to rank gear and buffs, you can try it out at Rawr - Home. I am in the process of updating the module for 3.0, and it is mostly done.

You might have used the current Tankadin module and saw that is was quite inaccurate, especially in regards to threat. This was because I was in middle of making the module when I quit WoW and was never finished and wasn't meant to be released. But I am back to my Pally for WotLK so I plan to keep it updated now.

It should be ready from when 3.0 comes out, the main thing that will be missing is that I do not plan to support procs for any level 70 gear. It is a bunch of extra work that will be useless a month later.

I am eager to hear any suggestions or comments you might have about it.

Here is a screenshot of how it looks so far.

Theras · 10/01/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by ZulazeeluIcecrown

If I'm too cheap to buy a new enchant, and I possess a Cudgel of Consecration enchanted with +40 Spellpower, and a King's Defender with Mongoose (yes yes my gear is much worse than the standards of most Elitist Jerk posters, heh), I'll still be better off using the Cudgel during the 3.0 -> Wrath time period, correct?

....

And then the last question, which I haven't seen asked yet: in 3.0 and in Wrath, will we still be best off with Wizard Oil, or would some more melee-oriented temporary enchant be better (sharpening stone, etc)?

The threat difference between the [Cudgel of Consecration] and the [King's Defender] is going to be trivial in 3.0, even including the 40 spell power enchant on the Cudgel. We're talking on the order of 5-10 TPS difference, out of 1600+. That makes the King's Defender pretty much universally better for single target tanking, since it also has armor and defense rating, in addition to a more defensive-oriented enchant. You'll want to hang on to your Cudgel for AE tanking, though.

I'm also showing [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]s being roughly equal to [Superior Wizard Oil] in last night's patch in 1-3 target scenarios, with any more targets than that wizard oil winning out. However, it's worth pointing out that Wizard oil costs about a fifth what sharpening stones do on my realm, which makes the choice a little easier.

• Chicken · 10/01/08, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by Theras

I'm also showing [Adamantite Sharpening Stone]s being roughly equal to [Superior Wizard Oil] in last night's patch in 1-3 target scenarios, with any more targets than that wizard oil winning out. However, it's worth pointing out that Wizard oil costs about a fifth what sharpening stones do on my realm, which makes the choice a little easier.

[Righteous Weapon Coating] is an interesting option as well now, I believe it works out to an average of 65 attack power or so, which should theoretically be better if I'm remembering my scaling numbers right. It also has the possibility to stack it with Avenging Wrath going for it. Of course it's only usable in SWP.

Theras · 10/01/08, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

[Righteous Weapon Coating] is an interesting option as well now, I believe it works out to an average of 65 attack power or so, which should theoretically be better if I'm remembering my scaling numbers right. It also has the possibility to stack it with Avenging Wrath going for it. Of course it's only usable in SWP.

You're right; Righteous Weapon Coating is straight up superior to both (even AE'ing), assuming a 45s cooldown between procs. My guild bank will be thrilled.

Kayoto · 10/03/08, 11:27 AM

Well, there's no discussion going on in this thread about it, so...

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

We test a lot of different ways. We test characters alone, self buffed and raid buffed. We do very controlled tests and we do tests where we just tell a skilled player to go nuts and we do actual raids. We get a lot of information from outside Blizzard as well, but you asked about how we test.

It's difficult to know exactly when a tank is going to end using their cooldowns. Sometimes it's probably fine to spam them and other times they need to be saved for a very specific situation. Which abilities you use is also determined by what classes are present in the rest of your group. That's just another reason to gather a large body of data.

We think the paladin and warrior are pretty close now. I do have some concerns about eventual scaling problems now that block is so good. Critical Block may end up letting warriors bypass paladins eventually, but that will be a few raid tiers from now, so we'll have plenty of time to evaluate the situation and make adjustments if necessary.

You're still going to have a hard time convincing me that 2% mitigation difference will determine which class everyone uses for their MT. Consider:

1) You're going to have a hard time even knowing what that number is. Unless a few really eloquent theorycrafters manage to convince the entire raiding community, most of the time you're going to have to rely on actual raid data to make decisions, and that kind of variance is going to be really hard to detect.

2) Every boss is different. Mitigation deltas may be miniscule on a slow-hitting boss but noticeable on a fast-hitting boss for instance.

3) A difference likes 2% assumes both tanks have the best gear possible for their slot. Gear can make a very big difference in mitigation, yet you tend to see guilds stick with their MT for a long time. You don't suddenly drop your guy when someone with a better shield and 10% more mitigation comes along. Why? Because your guy's loyalty, dependability, knowledge or sense of humor is more important than that 10% difference.

4) Don't forget player skill has a huge role in here too. I've done Archimonde with an MT that couldn't stance dance to save his life. But despite that er... handicap, the group is on M'uru or something now. Yeah I know, everyone has antecdotes. The moral of my story is that if a tank who can't use his cooldowns can make it to Sunwell, surely the tank with 2% less mit can. If min-maxing tumped all, they would have dumped him.

5) Paladins and druid tanks are already tanking a lot of content in BC, and that's in spite of the current design (i.e. the BC version, not the LK one) that warriors are the best single boss tanks. And, in spite of things like crushing blows. And, in spite of the difficulties druids and paladins had getting gear. If they can tank already when they're supposed to be OTs, then they should probably be great when we are actively trying to make them MTs.

Original thread: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> GC: Tanking Testing Assumptions

I already posted my thoughts on Maintankadin, and several people (including PsiVen) have posted in the original thread in an articulate and well thought out manner.

I'm rather disappointed that when the patch hits, my viability as a main tank will actually go DOWN (due to reduced HP from the STAM scaling nerf). Even the increase in block value won't really compensate (and that's not even using a comparison to the increased mitigation that Warriors are gaining). I'm really quite curious as to what kind of testing the devs are doing to only come up with a ~2% difference (2% in what, exactly? They certainly have more than 2% health and more than 2% mitigation over us).

Also, Ghostcrawler seems to be missing the point -- Paladins are main tanking in Sunwell right now in some guilds, but that doesn't mean that there's any good reason for them to do so. Prot Paladins want progression guilds to have a solid, mechanics-related reason to using a Paladin main tank, and there is currently no such reason to do so.

Kelavis · 10/03/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Theras

The threat difference between the [Cudgel of Consecration] and the [King's Defender] is going to be trivial in 3.0, even including the 40 spell power enchant on the Cudgel. We're talking on the order of 5-10 TPS difference, out of 1600+. That makes the King's Defender pretty much universally better for single target tanking, since it also has armor and defense rating, in addition to a more defensive-oriented enchant. You'll want to hang on to your Cudgel for AE tanking, though.

So, what about a weapon of this sort [Breeching Comet]? I heard slow weapons are better for HoR and haven't heard of it being normalized. I would prefer to use a traditional prot weapon like[The Unbreakable Will] but if slow weapons are noticeably better then so be it. Also, what is being speculated as our best weapon enchant come 3.0?

• Chicken · 10/03/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kelavis

So, what about a weapon of this sort [Breeching Comet]? I heard slow weapons are better for HoR and haven't heard of it being normalized. I would prefer to use a traditional prot weapon like[The Unbreakable Will] but if slow weapons are noticeably better then so be it. Also, what is being speculated as our best weapon enchant come 3.0?

HotR has been normalized in fact, though in a rather unique way. It does damage equal to the weapon's DPS plus your DPS from Attack Power times four. For Hammer of the Righteous's own damage, the weapon speed is essentially a non-factor.

Seal Procs from Hammer of the Righteous however are still based on your weapon speed. This only really makes a difference in case you're using it with Seal of Righteousness or Seal of Blood/Martyr, but is something to keep in mind. I believe it's looking like Seal of Vengeance/Corruption as the best overall tanking seal for a long single target fight, and the direct damage component of that Seal, while based on weapon speed, is pretty negligible. It's all about the DoT damage for it, and that doesn't depend on your weapon speed.

Tilted · 10/03/08, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Kayoto

I already posted my thoughts on Maintankadin, and several people (including PsiVen) have posted in the original thread in an articulate and well thought out manner.

I'm rather disappointed that when the patch hits, my viability as a main tank will actually go DOWN (due to reduced HP from the STAM scaling nerf). Even the increase in block value won't really compensate (and that's not even using a comparison to the increased mitigation that Warriors are gaining). I'm really quite curious as to what kind of testing the devs are doing to only come up with a ~2% difference (2% in what, exactly? They certainly have more than 2% health and more than 2% mitigation over us).

Also, Ghostcrawler seems to be missing the point -- Paladins are main tanking in Sunwell right now in some guilds, but that doesn't mean that there's any good reason for them to do so. Prot Paladins want progression guilds to have a solid, mechanics-related reason to using a Paladin main tank, and there is currently no such reason to do so.

Bolded emphasis mine, because it's simply not true. Now, in relation to other classes you do have a case, but the patch provides a direct survivability boost for us.

* Deflection is now tier 1 ret. This really isn't a boost per se, but it does reduce the cost to free up points to be spent elsewhere. Holy Shield and Redoubt similarly cost less now too.

* Judgements of the Just means you'll always have a 20% attack speed debuff up against your target. While it's true warriors can currently provide this debuff, it's a substantial hit to their DPS cycle to do so, and you can't always count on it being active. EDIT: Currently warriors need to spend 3 talent points to boost the debuff from 10% to 20%, and very few DPS builds bother picking this talent up.

* The change to Anticipation is a direct 2.6% boost to avoidance at the cost of 0.8% chance to block. No matter how high your block value is, this is a buff to survival. This is also an indirect buff to all the avoidance on your gear, as well as clickies like [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch]. Yes, warriors get this change too.

* They've lumped Spell Warding into Guarded by the Light and boosted the percentage from 4% to 6%. This is a direct buff.

* Toughness now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects. While this does nothing to impact the damage taken from various attacks, it allows us to "get the eff out of the fire" much quicker.

* You are going to have a LOT more raid buffs in 3.0 and again at 80 than you do today. You can count on the added agility from shaman totems, extra HP from Blood Pact or Commanding Shout, Blessing of Sanctuary, extra heals from Devotion Aura or Tree of Life... The list goes on. The sum of these buffs more than make up for 6% HP scaling from stamina.

I'm not saying the tanking classes are balanced as they stand right now in beta, but to say our viability to tank has gone down is patently false. Survivability is getting a direct boost over what it is today, and pretty much every encounter will be easier to tank because of it.