Protection and you! - Page 161

Kayoto · 10/08/08, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Qalor

Some oddities in that screenshot that may have contributed to issues:
She only did HotR 18 times to 21 SotR. If she's dropping a few HotRs for Exorcisms I could see it, but her consecrate is doing less damage which either means she was dropping consecrates for them, or should have been.

I'm not going to straight up say we're not needing more damage or threat, but if she worked on her rotation/priorities she might have better results.

...actually, we know how much damage she did, and how much dps she had, so you can figure out the length of the fight to 175 seconds...3 minutes. In that period of time, I'd expect to see at least 28 SotRs, but I see only 21. I'd expect to see the same amount of HotRs, unless that's what she was dropping for exorcisms/reseals. If I'm recalling correctly, consecrate ticks every second, and only the first tick can be resisted. If she had been dropping consecrate every 9 seconds, and the first tick was resisted each time, you'd still see 132 ticks for that time period.

Is she lagging, using some odd rotation and subbing in non-damage abilities, or am I completely failing at math?

Also, she got crushed 30 times...isn't that supposed to be out, or is that something special about Patchwerk?

I'm not entirely sure about what rotation Fiorina used, but I didn't see you mention using Avenger's Shield to replace some of the 6s cooldowns (HotR is the best candidate to drop for it), so that might explain it somewhat.

Conq[SUN] · 10/08/08, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by jere

That is probably a bug in recount of some sort. The damage you are looking at are Fiorina's attacks, not patchwerk's. It is saying Fiorina crushed Patchwerk 30 times, not the other way around. Still weird though.

As an aside, the good old crushing blow that we know may be gone as a raid boss mechanic, but its offspring live on as special abilities:
Crush - Spell - World of Warcraft
Crush - Spell - World of Warcraft

Recount is showing crits as crushes.

Mordekhuul · 10/08/08, 10:09 AM

For those of you looking at post-patch, pre-WotLK raiding, and as an exercise in our itemization under the new mechanics, how would you rate [Lightbringer Chestguard] against [Chestplate of Stoicism].

My thoughts first, but I am interested in how others rank the items under the new system. For frame of reference, assume a mix of main tanking heavy hitters (T6 point of view), such as bloodboil, AOE tanking, with more minor T6 bosses sprinkled in.

My Thoughts

Lightbringer provides (over Stoicism):
+21 stamina (two extra sockets, minus the extra stam Stoicism has on it innately).
+9 Strength
+60 Armor
+8 BV
+23 Block Rating

Stoicism provides (over Lightbringer):
+3 Defense Rating
+34 Dodge Rating (1.8% Dodge without considering Diminishing Returns)

On the surface, Lightbringer provides a larger quantity of benefits, but looking at them one by one:

The stamina is very valuable, no question.
The 9 Strength translates to 9*1.15*1.1 = 11.4 STR after buffs/talents. It yields some 5 BV and 22 AP as a result. The 5 BV helps mitigation, and the 22 AP just helps TPS/DPS.
The 60 armor and 8 BV help with mitigation, though fairly minor bonuses over Stoicism.
The 23 Block Rating will mostly get pushed off the table as most tanks (myself included) run well over 102.4% mitigation with HS up.

So I find the stamina valuable, the 8+5=13 BV nice, and the 60 armor fairly minor, when it comes to helping mitigation. The 22 AP simply helps DPS/TPS, which seems likely to be a non-issue in T6 gear post-patch, if all reports hold true.

In constrast, the only real benefit of Stoicism is some amount of Dodge. Something slightly less than 1.8% due to DR.

Seems fair to me that the question boils down to some 21*1.06*1.06*1.1*10 = 259 HP (raid buffed with talents) vs. almost 1.8% dodge.

Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?

Fqubed · 10/08/08, 10:32 AM

As for casters couldnt we add a side efect (perhaps glyphed) to AvengerShield so that when it hits the target deals 50% less magic damage for the next attack, or silence/interrupt effect (pulling casters, and/or tanking casters).

Petrus · 10/08/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?

It really depends on a few things. If you're getting a set bonus from having the T6 chest, that's one factor to consider. There are also other pieces (Helm, Legs) that are easily replaced by off-set pieces (Faceplate, 2.4 Badge Legs, Kalec Legs) so the chest may be one of those pieces that you keep for the 2 or 4pc bonus.

In my mind, T6 chest can generally win on its stamina bonus but since I'm not going to have a prot t6 chest anytime soon, Stoicism is a really fantastic choice.

As for all the RD stuff, I've actually only ever seen 2 RD resists in my tanking career, but I've seen a LOT (probably pushing into the hundreds) of times when RD simply failed, went on CD, no effects happened. It's fantastically irritating for a lot of us, and fixing its buggy mechanics would go a long ways to help shore up Paladin taunting. It would still be nice to have a backup, though.

Questioner · 10/08/08, 6:58 PM

I am one of those people that have had fantastically bad luck with Righteous Defense. On one night of Brutallus attempts, one our usual tanks was out ( I was primarily a tank but had been respeccing Ret for this fight ) so I stayed as protection spec. I finally got the rotation down, but had RD fail (not resist, just absolutely nothing happened) an astounding SIX times in a row. The guild and I agreed...I would not be tanking this fight again.

I don't really feel like we need a new taunt, I would just like RD to work.

Cathela · 10/08/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

Would one reasonably pick Stoicism over Lightbringer for mitigation and Lightbringer over Stoicism for TPS, or am I undervaluing the other benefits Lightbringer provides?

Lightbringer gives you more soaking ability and reduces damage taken on all hits; Stoicism gives you a greater chance for full avoidance. I prefer the former.

Neganur · 10/09/08, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by Qalor

If she had been dropping consecrate every 9 seconds, and the first tick was resisted each time, you'd still see 132 ticks for that time period.

Keep in mind though, the combat log does not show consecration ticks that got resisted.
You can easily test this by dropping a consecrate on the boss level dummy and watch your combat log.

example: (I'm level 70 and used the level 80 dummy)

07:20:26> [Your] Consecration Missed [Grandmaster's Training Dummy]. (Missed)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration afflicted [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
07:20:28> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:32> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:34> [Your] Consecration dissipated [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].

As you can see, there are only 2 ticks. While the log clearly states the affliction and dissipation of the spell with the exact duration of 8 seconds.

What this means is, recount will not be able to track any resisted ticks. She might have spammed the spell but only 70 out of 132 ticks actually hit.

Qalor · 10/09/08, 8:05 AM

Originally Posted by Neganur

Keep in mind though, the combat log does not show consecration ticks that got resisted.
You can easily test this by dropping a consecrate on the boss level dummy and watch your combat log.

example: (I'm level 70 and used the level 80 dummy)

07:20:26> [Your] Consecration Missed [Grandmaster's Training Dummy]. (Missed)
07:20:26> [Your] Consecration afflicted [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].
07:20:28> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:32> [Your] Consecration damaged [Grandmaster's Training Dummy] 1 Holy. (116 Resisted) (28 Overkill)
07:20:34> [Your] Consecration dissipated [Grandmaster's Training Dummy].

As you can see, there are only 2 ticks. While the log clearly states the affliction and dissipation of the spell with the exact duration of 8 seconds.

What this means is, recount will not be able to track any resisted ticks. She might have spammed the spell but only 70 out of 132 ticks actually hit.

I was unaware of this change. That certainly would explain that part of it.

• Chicken · 10/09/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Qalor

I was unaware of this change. That certainly would explain that part of it.

It's not a change, it's just a very unknown fact of Consecration: The spell does "miss" like other spells do, in it's case potentially on every tick, but it's not reported in the combat log when it does miss. I only learned of it myself a month ago, and had prior to that incorrectly stated in the Protection Paladin article that only the first tick could be resisted.

jere · 10/09/08, 8:58 AM

When the training dummies die, do they come back immediately, or is there lag?

One thing we figured out at maintankadin a long time ago was the first tick resist thing was bogus. Some had gone through tons of combat logs and found that the resist message we saw was a resist for the application of the spell and not a tick. Basically we would see a resist message followed by 8 ticks of the spell, indicating that the resist was not for the ticks at all.

This would be new if actual ticks are getting resisted though. In all our tests we still had 8 ticks for every cast, with some partially resisted, but never fully that I recall.

So these results make me curious for sure. I guess I need to go play on some practice dummies and see how they react.

Prinsesa · 10/09/08, 9:56 AM

Training dummies do not die. They have 1 HP, so they always experience (damage-1) as overkill, but they will never die.

I think it's also important that if you discover something on dummies, that you also try it on an actual mob as much as possible, since training dummies can produce weird results because of their immortal-but-hittable status. Specifically, the Affliction Warlock's Pandemic talent never procs on a dummy, but works perfectly fine on any other mob.

Redcape · 10/09/08, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by jere

This would be new if actual ticks are getting resisted though. In all our tests we still had 8 ticks for every cast, with some partially resisted, but never fully that I recall.

Consecration seems to have changed in functionality. In my many, many tests in TBC it was often partially resisted but individual ticks were never fully resisted as far as I can recall. However, in 3.0 Consecrate now has each tick be fully resisted and they can also be partially resisted. Essentially it works just like any other spell now but each tick is treated as a new spell.

The initial application could always be resisted but that had no effect. The same is true now, the 'debuff' of Consecrate shows up as resisted in the log, but that has no effect on the damage.

jere · 10/09/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

Consecration seems to have changed in functionality. In my many, many tests in TBC it was often partially resisted but individual ticks were never fully resisted as far as I can recall. However, in 3.0 Consecrate now has each tick be fully resisted and they can also be partially resisted. Essentially it works just like any other spell now but each tick is treated as a new spell.

That's what I was getting out of the comments earlier as well. I was more responding to the comment that this isn't a change, when in fact that in live, it doesn't seem to do this as far as the testing we did shows, so it would be a change from the current state (unless I am remembering wrong). I was considering the current state as live since both PTR and Beta are still in testing. If consecration will be able to fully resist/miss on each individual tick, this is a pretty interesting change.

Smurrf · 10/10/08, 12:48 AM

Something that our Ret brethren are already used to dealing with (with CS), but continued testing on the PTR shows that Hammer of the Righteous does not start auto-attacks. (Judging still does, however.)

For those who plan on leading off combat with a quick HotR, I'd recommend the following macro:

#showtooltip Hammer of the Righteous
/startattack
/cast Hammer of the Righteous