Protection and you! - Page 162

Petrus · 10/10/08, 5:06 AM

Originally Posted by jere

That's what I was getting out of the comments earlier as well. I was more responding to the comment that this isn't a change, when in fact that in live, it doesn't seem to do this as far as the testing we did shows, so it would be a change from the current state (unless I am remembering wrong). I was considering the current state as live since both PTR and Beta are still in testing. If consecration will be able to fully resist/miss on each individual tick, this is a pretty interesting change.

It could certainly affect the prioritization of Consecration in any given rotation. If it's able to miss like other spells, is it affected by the hit rating? I believe its current incarnation's "resist" check is due to its former life as an AoE DoT spell that applied a debuff, which is what the "resist" was for. On live, it's a relatively important spell to have up as it is essentially unresistable (similar to how Judging with Blood is unresistable) and guaranteed threat, but if that is no longer the case, then it is much easier to consider skipping it in the rotation (which I already do on live sometimes).

Kayoto · 10/13/08, 2:59 PM

I haven't seen this discussed anywhere on EJ, so here goes.

- First off, you said that Shield of Righteousness was getting 2 ranks. I would like to know when are we going to see this second rank? And what level do we learn each rank? Which btw, I don't get it why people complain about this spell, yes it's copied. But this spell should've been part of the paladin class a long time ago. Seeing my paladin shield slam feels so right, I can't even understand why it took so long to get one. Copied or not, I'm glad we finally got this spell, we are masters of shields (talking about paladin lore in any game), feels only natural that we get attacks that utilizes our shield for damage.

It has two ranks. Rank 1 is level 75 and rank 2 is level 80.

- In blizzcon when you were asked about the single target taunt for paladins you said you don't believe it to be necessary and don't want to homogenize the tanks. There have been many threads in this forum telling you guys it is necessary. There is no ifs and buts about it. You guys say you read the forums and I believe that, but what I think is happening is you don't believe us. There has been many times where our taunt has failed to work and it's not even a question about getting resisted. Can we please get that single target taunt. And when I mean taunt I mean it taunts the mob and not the target of target. Are we going to see anything being done about our taunt failing at the worst possible time?

Telling us it is necessary != us being convinced it is necessary. A lot of bad changes would go into the game if we just made whatever changes players asked for in forums. We have to be very cautious.

- I was surprised that at blizzcon no one asked this question, so I'm asking it now. Are we ever going to see anything being done about avenger shield? To many times in the last couple of days I was frustrated with this spell daze effect. Trying to pull one group ending up pulling more because of the patrol coming in and seeing those 3 mobs taking 10 sec to reach me. We asked for a silence so many times. and I know the response will be you don't want to homogenize the tanks., but there wouldn't be none, if you would've given it to paladins first, like we ask for the past 2 years. I'll gladly pay for a glyph that changes the daze into a silence or something else.

It's something we are considering. If it was a change we had already decided to make I would have posted it.

How about adding it to the avenger shield glyph that changes it to a single target spell with double damage, have it as well change our daze into a 3 sec silence. Or have it on seperate glyphs. Those that like the daze get to keep it, and those that don't, get to have that silence they wanted. So again the question is. Is there anything that can be done about the daze effect on AS? Or do you guys like it that way and don't plan on changing it at all?

We have more glyphs planned to slowly release over time.

- Another question I was surprised that wasn't asked, our health is currently way below all other tanks. I can live with being 200 health for example behind the other tanks. It is not however acceptable to be 1k health or more behind them. Is there anything in the works about fixing the low health on paladin tanks?

You're going to have trouble convincing me that a 1000 health delta (if that's even it) is going to be the difference between getting invited to a raid or not. Bosses can hit for easily 10 times that now and you can shield block for more than that. A number that small can easily get swalled up just depending on the gear that drops for you. Are you expecting a guild to take a paladin tank and then swap one out when the warrior gets his shoulders to drop? I'm not going to promise all stats will be identical.

Well that is the questions I had to ask,. There are many other things that need some work, but there not as vital as the ones I mentioned above, at least to me. Mitigation and Threat isn't issue, just need some utility to go along our way and then I think most of us will be happy.

I doubt most of you will be happy, but thanks for the thought.

Well, first off...

Rank 2 of ShoR at level 80: Awesome! This is great news, and although I'm doubtful that the coefficient will increase at all across ranks, we can hope that the flat damage is significantly higher (I'm going to estimate +600 for Rank 2).

Secondly...

I'd really, really like to hear which Developer has played a Prot. Paladin, if any at all. I've had RD 'break' (no resist message, nothing in the combat log, but goes on cooldown) so many times in important situations, I've lost count. Giving Paladins a single target taunt will be too much 'homogenization,' even when THREE of the other tanking classes have one? Please. I hope they take the damned blinders off soon.

The health and avenger's shield daze issues are kind of minor to me at this point, although it would be nice for them to just increase our base health and stick our Stamina scaling at 6% -- they did something similar for Death Knights, and why shouldn't plate wearing tanks have about the same HP (200~300 HP difference at most), anyways? I think Blizzard is succumbing to the endless complaints about classes becoming too similar.

I'm still hoping for a buff to HotR, but considering no one else seems to think it's an issue (even though it's one of our lowest contributing abilities for threat, even below Holy Shield on some fights), I'm not holding my breath.

DdarkDdemon · 10/13/08, 3:29 PM

Hell, we could make one tank be killed with one hit and call it unique.
But that it is unique doesn't mean it is efficient or good.

I thought we had battled that argument already when they gave AoE tanking to all other tanks?

Rasczak · 10/13/08, 3:34 PM

Have they said anything about giving our glyphs another pass? Compared to the warrior and deathknight glyphs a lot of ours seem pretty lackluster. Our current tanking glyphs are
Major:
Glyph of Avenger's Shield
Glyph of Avenging Wrath
Glyph of Consecration
Glyph of Exorcism
Glyph of Judgement
Glyph of Righteous Defense
Glyph of Seal of Vengeance
Glyph of Spiritual Attunement
Minor:
Glyph of Sense Undead
Glyph of the Wise

Glyph of Avenger's Shield is a good one for bosses but hurts getting initial agro on multiple mobs, historically one of our strengths. If it was something you could click on and off at will it would be fantastic. Glyph of Avenging Wrath: twice as many hammer of wraths for 20 seconds every 3 minutes. I don't know our numbers but HoW would have to do a ton of damage to justify a glyph slot that will be used probably once per boss. Glyph of Consecration: We aren't mana starved anymore so the mp5 benefit isn't helpful and this throws off our rotation, additionally with consecrate ticks being fully resistible its less valuable on the whole that on live. Glyph of Exorcism: assuming they let us use this on any target it becomes a very nice second interrupt which will be very helpful on some bosses. If it stays usable only on undead and demons, well shit. Glyph of Judgement: 10% more damge off something we will be using every cooldown? hurray! Glyph of Righteous Defense: A must have but it still won't make up for the fact that RD is buggy as hell. Glyph of Seal of Vengeance: Last I heard we will pretty much always be tanking with vengeance so this is a very nice boost to our tps and a defensive boost to avoiding parry hasteing the mob. Glyph of Spiritual Attunement: I only included this for completenesses sake, since sanctuary is so good now and this is such a small boost (10% > 11%) there's no reason to take it.

For minor glyphs we have: Glyph of Sense Undead: Damage is always nice. Glyph of the Wise: 50% less mana to put up seal of wisdom is pretty marginal since we won't really need the mana except special situations like dpsing once our target is dead in multi-target boss fight. Glyph of Lay on Hands: May as well take this since the others are just to save time/mana reblessing before a fight.

We get 2 major and 3 minor glyphs at 70 and a 3rd major at 80. We have 4, possibly 5 major glyphs worth taking at the moment: Avenger's Shield, Judgement, righteous defense, vengeance, and possibly exorcism. Compared to warriors having 9 major and 4 minor glyphs of varying usefulness its pretty frustrating.

Kayoto: Eyonix is the only blizzard person I remember seeing actually admit to having a paladin: WoW BlueTracker: A Real Paladin Tank Weapon. He was a big fan of spell hit on the badge gear for some reason and is probably why we have instant AS now. I wish he had the same luck with RD that almost every other paladin has, then maybe we would get it fixed.

As far as health why can't we have the advantage over warriors for a change? If 1k hp isn't enough to make a difference shouldn't it be just as fair to have us 1k ahead of warriors? It would make up for the admittedly small but existent mitigation gap.

Kayoto · 10/13/08, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rasczak

Kayoto: Eyonix is the only blizzard person I remember seeing actually admit to having a paladin: WoW BlueTracker: A Real Paladin Tank Weapon. He was a big fan of spell hit on the badge gear for some reason and is probably why we have instant AS now. I wish he had the same luck with RD that almost every other paladin has, then maybe we would get it fixed.

As far as health why can't we have the advantage over warriors for a change? If 1k hp isn't enough to make a difference shouldn't it be just as fair to have us 1k ahead of warriors? It would make up for the admittedly small but existent mitigation gap.

Eyonix is the red-headed stepchild of the blue posters. He doesn't count, especially if he's responsible for such terrible things as [Blue's Greaves of the Righteous Guardian] and [Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate].

By the way, not that I disagree with your assessment of how it wouldn't be unreasonable for us to have more health than Warriors, but your basis of the 'small but existent' mitigation gap isn't accurate unless Ardent Defender is getting leapfrogged consistently (which, currently, I haven't heard of that happening in WotLK raids).

Most of the AD tracking mods actually list its mitigation over the course of a single night at 1~2%, not to count the many raid wipes it can save, so mitigation-wise I think we can safely say we're on par.

I'd still love to see the endless amounts of complaining if we were given more HP than Warriors in Wrath, though. In all honesty, that's probably the only reason it won't happen, since, as you said, there's no mechanics-based reason why Paladins couldn't be the plate+shield tank with the higher HP instead of Warriors.

Usul · 10/13/08, 4:27 PM

So what's the word on the better tanking spell now? Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better? I have my own opinions and limited experiences in beta but I'd like to see some numbers if anyone has any.

• frmorrison · 10/13/08, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kayoto

Eyonix is the red-headed stepchild of the blue posters. He doesn't count, especially if he's responsible for such terrible things as [Blue's Greaves of the Righteous Guardian] and [Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate].

Eyonix and the other CMs main job is to communicate to the players and to pass feedback to the developers. Eyonix didn't say "I love spell hit on my Paladin!" and then some item developer added spell hit to those items. I have no idea why some dev put spell hit on them, but tomorrow it will not matter.

The best seal for Prot is SoV because you get 10 expertise with a glyph, plus with Hammer you can put the DoT on 3 targets.

Exewut · 10/13/08, 5:11 PM

I use seal of light non stop because honestly, it's just not needed at all for threat reasons. So unless you're really sure that your healers will be able to keep you up all the time use light. Sure sor and vegneance do nice damage, but I'm rather alive than first on damage meters.
Doing 15% of the total healing in 5 man heroics is quite nice as well.

edit: Obviously this is with the current beta version of seal of light where it procs of nearly every attack and heals for ~900, I'm not sure if that really is intended. For really hard content you'll probably want to use vegneance because of the expertise on it.

Usul · 10/13/08, 6:00 PM

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. I was wondering what is best for THREAT. Yes, I use Judgment of Light, however I'm wondering what's the best Seal to use for threat generation. I'm usually tanking the big guys in Sunwell and threat is more of an issue then heals, as I usually have 3-4 healers on me plus HoT's, so 90% of the time I'll want a threat seal and not Light. Also, I'm a Blood Elf and (unless I'm mistaken) we will NOT be getting Seal of Vengeance (alliance only, right?). Obviously Seal of Corruption is similar, however I don't believe the glyph works for that.

So, I pose my question re-worded:
Which is better for threat generation: Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better for threat? Anyone have actual data to support a clear winner for threat generation?

In my opinion, I would assume SoR is better for single target and SoC would be better for multi-target, but I've been told both ways that one is better for the other regardless of mob count. Has anyone done a recorded numbers test on the PTR?

pope master · 10/13/08, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Usul

So, I pose my question re-worded:
Which is better for threat generation: Seal of Corruption or Seal of Righteousness? In what situations is one or the other better for threat? Anyone have actual data to support a clear winner for threat generation?

In my opinion, I would assume SoR is better for single target and SoC would be better for multi-target, but I've been told both ways that one is better for the other regardless of mob count. Has anyone done a recorded numbers test on the PTR?

Seal of Vengance....the glyph is a huge TPS boost and hammer has some nice AOE type advantages with it.

Usul · 10/13/08, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by pope master

Seal of Vengance....the glyph is a huge TPS boost and hammer has some nice AOE type advantages with it.

/sigh ... and for the horde?

Kayoto · 10/13/08, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Usul

/sigh ... and for the horde?

Glyph of Seal of Vengeance
Major Glyph
Classes: Paladin
Requires Level 50
Use: Your Seal of Vengeance or Seal of Corruption also grants 10 expertise while active.

Usul · 10/13/08, 6:39 PM

Ok, so going with that I can assume you mean that Seal of Corruption is better because, if used with the glyph, it grants expertise. Are you then also stating that SoC causes more threat because of the extra 10 expertise? Is that just a best guess or is that just an assumption, because I'd really like to see the numbers run between SoR and SoC/V with the glyph.

Exewut · 10/13/08, 7:23 PM

edit: gah I just noticed I misread your post, nevermind.

Balog · 10/13/08, 7:29 PM

Originally Posted by Usul

/sigh ... and for the horde?

All seals are available to both factions, just with different names. Unless they've changed this in the last coupla days?