Protection and you! - Page 17

jasura · 12/05/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

You're still leaving yourself open for a grave then, and a potential wipe. Personally, I always tank the murlocs on his ass, and just deal with the graves (Divine Shield cancel macro, warrior and druid AoE taunts). But if you're going to go the super-safe route, I'd suggest having a holy pally run down and spam holy lights on some convenient warlocks to get them to you, as opposed to running all over the place. Also, who are they aggroing on to? Druids and shammies really need to lay off of healing until you get the murlocs, and priests need to be on the ball with their fades.

But really, it sounds like more of an issue with your healers than with you. 2-3 holy lights with Righteous Fury up should be enough to snag all the murlocs to you, if the other healers are only healing the MT as much as they need to (and splitting the responsibility).

One last thing that could help is the switch weapon macro listed in the first post. Basically, switch to your healing weapon and shield before the murlocs pop, and it should significantly improve the amount you're healing for, and thus your threat. Just remember to switch back before the murlocs get to you

.

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

◊ Cathela · 12/05/07, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

Quick question about Tidewalker...

The guild has me positioned for the fight near the water graves but far away enough from tidewalker that i do not get graved myself. The rest of the casters are further up the ramp between myself and tidewalker. I had a bit of a hard time grabbing agro from the murlocs from just spamming holy light (it did not help that i ususally could only get 2-3 heals off).

I was just wondering if it would be a reasonable strategy to move up the ramp immediately after watery grave is cast so that i can grab the murlocs with consecration/holy light and then move back down to my original spot by the graves so when the cooldown of the watery graves is up i can be far away from it enough that i do not get hit by it.

One thing we ran into trouble with is that apparently there's a range limit on healing threat. We had MT healers and raid healers picking up aggro and dying before I could get it off of them because they murlocs were coming into threat range of them long before they came into my threat range. To fix this problem, have the healers stand at max healing range and as close to you as possible. This minimizes the window during which they can get healing aggro and you can't. Shadow priests, too.

EDIT: 3 heals has always been plenty for me, and 2 usually does fine. Make sure you have pre-set healing targets that nobody else is allowed to touch until you get murloc aggro. Warlocks work best for this, of course.

Also, if you can arrange for full pushback-immunity (earthshield + Conc. aura, or a PW:S as the murlocs approach) that might help you finish that third heal if that's giving you trouble.

Oxudes · 12/05/07, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

Here's what we do: I have a warlock, who starts lifetapping as soon as he quakes (knocking the hp of people down), I have a macro to heal that lock only (max rank HL spam). I need to cast 2-3 heals to ensure all murlocs reach me. Other healers need to give you a 2-3 s head start before they heal after the quake comes (except mt healers). Even so, they should be carefull with aoe healing (god i hated shamans here).

Basically, if noone did aoe healing till murlocs reached me and no fancy big number healing, murlocs would reach me and stick to me like glue. That IS the tricky part however. We also have 1-2 druids here, who are dpsing in cat, but shift to bear and aoe taunt (1 at a time) if I get tombed (first time I bubble out of it, second time they need to taunt).

We're going to try it with a holy pala in pvp gear this week.

Denogran · 12/05/07, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

How many holy pallies do you run with? I've found that unless someone is healing when they're not supposed to, the murlocs will _always_ be on a paladin or a priest when they come running up. If you stack the other pallies on top of where you're tanking them( if it's right on TW's ass then you get the benefit of AoE hitting him ), then you don't have to move at all in order to tank. Priests should absolutely be using fade here though, it's basically the ideal situation for that spell. If it gets resisted, toss them a BoP. Basically, I think our job as a tank is complicated enough as it is during the murloc time, and running around trying to gather them all up every earthquake just makes things a helluv a lot harder. But if it's working for you, then more power to ya.

Maccam · 12/06/07, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

As the author of the non-Fubar version, I was really shocked by how much AD actually kicks in. On "plain sailing" trash mobs and bosses, it's never active (as you'd expect), but with dicier pulls and progression bosses when the healing pattern isn't quite down, it generally adds up to about 2-3% mitigation and relatively often totally averts death 2 or 3 times a try.

I downloaded the version... interesting stuff. I haven't run a raid since I tried it - just heroics.

AD is almost never coming into play according to it. The few times it has, it's been in the middle of a bad pull where we wiped anyway.

It hasn't recorded a single death averted through AD. Total playing time in heroics is probably about 12 hours at this point, through about 8 runs.

Early days... and I'd have to see it in a raid environment... but if it continued like this, I'd question the usefulness of AD.

Also... the user interface... would it be possible to have it present summary numbers for some period other than a single fight? Or is that already in and I've just not done my homework?

jasura · 12/06/07, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

How many holy pallies do you run with? I've found that unless someone is healing when they're not supposed to, the murlocs will _always_ be on a paladin or a priest when they come running up. If you stack the other pallies on top of where you're tanking them( if it's right on TW's ass then you get the benefit of AoE hitting him ), then you don't have to move at all in order to tank. Priests should absolutely be using fade here though, it's basically the ideal situation for that spell. If it gets resisted, toss them a BoP. Basically, I think our job as a tank is complicated enough as it is during the murloc time, and running around trying to gather them all up every earthquake just makes things a helluv a lot harder. But if it's working for you, then more power to ya.

We usually do that fight with 2-3 holy pallies, one of which is always solo-healing graved people.

This sounds amazingly complex but it's really not once you see it in action. You see it once and you're like "Oh, ok.". The entire strategy that we use basically boils down to OT's getting initial aggro over as many murlocs as possible. Like I said, they don't pick all of them up nor do they hold them for a long time but it slows em up enough that even if murlocs do get through to a healer, it's only 1 -3 max per pack and they don't do enough damage to kill a healer, even if it's a priest. And then, when they do get through, they only hit 1-2 times max before consecrate picks them up.

Couple that with the fact that we position in him a place that causes the packs to get to the healers about 4-5 seconds apart and you have a situation where the damage on the healers is minimal if any. Our healers never have to hold back, never have to aggro drop etc. Hell, I think it's gotten to the point where they're TRYING to pull aggro on the murlocs :-)

If it's a Warrior OT, they Thunderclap them then drag them back (This works extremely well). If it's a druid, they swipe like crazy. If it's a pally... Do I have to even go over how they pick them up? (We have two pally tanks.)

The end result is that instead of 12 murlocs coming through and hitting a healer at once, 1-3 get through at once, MAX. Our next morogrim kill, I will try to record it and post it for you all to see the strat in action.

Edit: I just noticed that you're from Sparda! Holy tauren, I didn't think there were any other EJ-Loving protadins on our server. Congrats on your guys' recent Kael and early MH kills!

Gunn · 12/06/07, 2:29 PM

Easy Peasy

Ok I'm protect spec'd

I stood in the cubby hole to the right of Morogrim. I had a warlock Life Tap his HP after Earthquake, I hit him up with some Holy Lights and the murlocs came directly towards me each time. Most after the 2nd heal, but definitely by the 3rd.

Key here

1. Have Righteous Fury activated
2. All healers (except you) must have Blessing of Salvation
3. No raid healing until Paladin has threat from Murlocs (Dedicate healers to MT for healing, can't let him die)

When the murlocs are about 15yds away stop healing and use Consecration
1. have Blessing of Sanc on
2. Consecrate
3. Holy shield

Also the positioning is crucial, in my position both groups of Murlocs get to me with-in 3seconds of each other.

I also put 2 pallies in my group, me with Imp Concentraion aura, another with Retribution aura, and a 3rd with Devo aura.

After all murlocs are in the consecrate and it ticks for the full 8 secs, call for AOE nukes in.
You should have ZERO problem holding aggro during this phase and I personally only needed 1 healer on me.
Don't even bother whacking murlocs, spam consecrate and holy shield until they're dead

This was my first time tanking them and our guild first kill of Morogrim.
Protect Paladins truly make this easy.

eternityshard · 12/06/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by jsilverdia

Is there any hard and fast rule about how much block equals a certain amount of armor in relation to effective health? Like 200 armor equals 40 block value, or something like that. I'm a bit unsure which rings i should be using. I have the top tier Kara ring, the 2nd tier eternity ring, and the 7th ring of tirisfalen.

I am using the eternity and the 7th, but I'm wondering if the 391 armor on the great protector ring is worth more than the 24 block value and 24 block rating on the 7th. Thoughts? If not not on the ring choice, then the general question of armor vs. block value for effective health.

My thoughts on this:

Presuming you are near the 16k armor mark (I am on a couple hundred on either side of it depending on if I'm running Devotion Aura or not), then 391 armor is worth about 0.5% physical damage reduction (Math stolen from the Protection Warrior thread using that armor formula).

Against adds (such as Embers of Al'ar) that hit plate for ~1000 (pre-block), then 0.5% reduction is 5 damage less per hit. Even under the best buff situations, I run just under 50% avoidance (Miss, Dodge, Parry). Presuming you are uncrushable, your Block Rating will come into effect on any attack that hits you.

Given all that, against trash or adds, then 391 armor is worth about 5 Block Value. This is, of course, presuming you have ~16k armor and the adds are hitting you for ~1k.

Now, if we consider a boss who hits for 5k damage on plate, then 0.5% reduction from 391 armor is 25 damage less per hit, or the equivalent of 25 Block Value.

Basically, the value of Block Value decreases compared to armor as the hits against you increase in damage (Block Value shows better returns against trash and adds than against bosses), but how much Armor equates to X amount of Block Value will also depend on your current armor value (as your armor value increases, a fixed bonus like 391 from the ring becomes less valuable).

Apologies if I missed any math.

So, personally, I'd choose the 7th Ring of the Tirisfalen over the Kara ring.

eternityshard · 12/06/07, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

How many holy pallies do you run with? I've found that unless someone is healing when they're not supposed to, the murlocs will _always_ be on a paladin or a priest when they come running up.

I'm sure its a rare thing, but we actually ran into a problem with the tank getting Healing Aggro on Tidewalker last week. I can't find our logs to get the exact numbers, but basically the tank got two Earthshield healing crits and a Prayer of Mending proc milliseconds after the murlocs spawned. The spawn from his end of the room (FLK side) entered melee range of him well before i could get significantly enough above his healing aggro to pull them to me. The other group charged by me, and the few that got within melee range of me stuck to me (as i was within 30% of his heaing aggro), but that was enough to interrupt any further heals from me to try to rip the others all back to me.

It was a bizarre series of luck that probably is likely to happen only very rarely, but there you have it.

As a note: our Morogrim strategy is to tank him at the entrance to the FLK hallway, with the ranged (including Warlocks) near the top of his ramp. I and my healer are at the bottom of his ramp (putting us out of Grave range). I am constantly spamming Holy Light on the warlocks (canceling the casts at 0.5 sec left so as to not waste mana). When an Earthquake hits, I let the Holy Light complete and then do another immediately on the next hurt Warlock. I can cast 4 before murlocs hit me with the best timing, 3 being more typical.

jasura · 12/06/07, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by eternityshard

I'm sure its a rare thing, but we actually ran into a problem with the tank getting Healing Aggro on Tidewalker last week. I can't find our logs to get the exact numbers, but basically the tank got two Earthshield healing crits and a Prayer of Mending proc milliseconds after the murlocs spawned. The spawn from his end of the room (FLK side) entered melee range of him well before i could get significantly enough above his healing aggro to pull them to me. The other group charged by me, and the few that got within melee range of me stuck to me (as i was within 30% of his heaing aggro), but that was enough to interrupt any further heals from me to try to rip the others all back to me.

It was a bizarre series of luck that probably is likely to happen only very rarely, but there you have it.

As a note: our Morogrim strategy is to tank him at the entrance to the FLK hallway, with the ranged (including Warlocks) near the top of his ramp. I and my healer are at the bottom of his ramp (putting us out of Grave range). I am constantly spamming Holy Light on the warlocks (canceling the casts at 0.5 sec left so as to not waste mana). When an Earthquake hits, I let the Holy Light complete and then do another immediately on the next hurt Warlock. I can cast 4 before murlocs hit me with the best timing, 3 being more typical.

Because certain heals do end up giving healing aggro to the healed person (Earth Shield being a good example), it is not that uncommon to see the murlocs aggro the tank. It is certainly a sight to see of course. You would think that the murlocs would eat up the warrior's shield block charges and cause him to get crushed by morogrim but we've never had a tank death due to this (Maybe we're just lucky).

Anytime that this happens, I throw my shield at them if I can and taunt them as well. If any remain, it doesnt take long for our healers to pull healing aggro back off of the morogrim tank. Once they start heading for the healers, they hit my consecrate and then stick to me like glue. Like I said in a previous post, I think our healers TRY to pull and keep aggro on the murlocs. You'll never see a raid get healed to full so quickly after an earthquake.

Wolftusk · 12/06/07, 6:13 PM

This may be a bit off topic...

I am the first protection paladin of my guild and i've come to realize that there is a lot of people that are not aware of what it is that i can bring to a raid as a tank and the benefits. I was going to write a post in my guild forums so i can educate some folks about pally tanks, but thought that maybe someone has already written this, and if so, anyone have a link so i can direct some of my guidlies that way?

◊ Cathela · 12/07/07, 1:53 AM

Originally Posted by eternityshard

Presuming you are near the 16k armor mark (I am on a couple hundred on either side of it depending on if I'm running Devotion Aura or not), then 391 armor is worth about 0.5% physical damage reduction (Math stolen from the Protection Warrior thread using that armor formula).

It's a reduction of around 0.5% physical damage relative to the unmitigated damage amount. But since you're basing your calculations on the damage after mitigation ("hits plate for ~1000") you need to look at the damage reduction relative to the that, which will be in the neighborhood of 1.2% I think.

Gothik · 12/07/07, 8:53 AM

Well forgive me if theres already information about this topic, i tried to search and didnt find anything interesting.

Well for startes i must say i got no experience with prot, i was holy since 58 and never respecced for the other trees. That said im looking for some help. Im currently leveling a new paladin that will probably tank (and i can get alot of information on this thread already) but thats not the problem...im also interest in aoe ''farming'', especially soloing instances not only for the money but because i like the chalenge and i didnt visit those places for months.

So can someone suggest a good spec, and items that will improve this role?

And a last question...how superior is prot vs holy when it comes to aoe? Is it far far superior?

Thanks in advance.

Ignus · 12/07/07, 10:17 AM

to wolftusk, I believe there's a post to that effect somewhere in the Maintankadin forums Maintankadin :: Index

to gothik, prot paladin AoE is VASTLY superior to holy paladin aoe farming, because of the huge amount of mitigation, and the additional reflective damage. Also, visit the aforementioned forums for more information on different aspects of playing protection paladin.

Gothik · 12/07/07, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ignus

to wolftusk, I believe there's a post to that effect somewhere in the Maintankadin forums Maintankadin :: Index

to gothik, prot paladin AoE is VASTLY superior to holy paladin aoe farming, because of the huge amount of mitigation, and the additional reflective damage. Also, visit the aforementioned forums for more information on different aspects of playing protection paladin.

Thank you im going to check it right now. If you guys got any tips that could help me please post here or send me a private message if you prefer to keep the topic focused on tanking.

jasura · 12/07/07, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

This may be a bit off topic...

I am the first protection paladin of my guild and i've come to realize that there is a lot of people that are not aware of what it is that i can bring to a raid as a tank and the benefits. I was going to write a post in my guild forums so i can educate some folks about pally tanks, but thought that maybe someone has already written this, and if so, anyone have a link so i can direct some of my guidlies that way?

Where are you guys at in progression? Pally tanks really shine in SSC and TK. Morogrim, Leotheras, Solarian and VR are all fights that are made easier by pally tanks to a certain degree. The best thing to do is to let your actions speak louder than words and just kick ass at tanking. Also, don't give pally tanks a bad name... Have good attendance with your guild, don't throw fits when you're asked to heal, get the best possible out-of-raid gems/enchants/gears etc.

My guild was the same way at first when we were just starting SSC. I didn't push to respec to prot until we had enough holy pallies to replace my healing spot and until we were at bosses that it helped to have pally tanks on. I was also a frequent visitor to these forums. When it was time for me to respec, I had the gear, knowledge and a will to succeed. I didn't disappoint them.

I'm now our raid leader and GM and they couldn't trust in me or believe me more. I've tanked most of everything in SSC and TK and having a pally tank for Morogrim, Leotheras and Solarian significantly enhanced our rate of progression. We have never done Leo without me tanking Human form and our FR warrior tanking demon form for example.

Best of luck to you.

Wolftusk · 12/07/07, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gothik

Well forgive me if theres already information about this topic, i tried to search and didnt find anything interesting.

Well for startes i must say i got no experience with prot, i was holy since 58 and never respecced for the other trees. That said im looking for some help. Im currently leveling a new paladin that will probably tank (and i can get alot of information on this thread already) but thats not the problem...im also interest in aoe ''farming'', especially soloing instances not only for the money but because i like the chalenge and i didnt visit those places for months.

So can someone suggest a good spec, and items that will improve this role?

And a last question...how superior is prot vs holy when it comes to aoe? Is it far far superior?

Thanks in advance.

You might wanna check out: AOE Protection Guide The Holy Light

Has a lot of info on Prot AoE grinding. I think this thread is more specific to End-Game Paladin Tanking viability. But the link above got me from level 35-70. Also, since Blessing of Sanctuary and Reckoning are both fairly deep into the protection tree, i would say that prot is very much superior to holy. Not to mention, the mitigation talents help reduce incoming damage when you have many mobs on you at once.

Gothik · 12/07/07, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

You might wanna check out: AOE Protection Guide The Holy Light

Has a lot of info on Prot AoE grinding. I think this thread is more specific to End-Game Paladin Tanking viability. But the link above got me from level 35-70. Also, since Blessing of Sanctuary and Reckoning are both fairly deep into the protection tree, i would say that prot is very much superior to holy. Not to mention, the mitigation talents help reduce incoming damage when you have many mobs on you at once.

Thank you very much. Now i got some nice forums/sites to read and ill return here when im 70, but this time to discuss main tanking

Wolftusk · 12/07/07, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by jasura

Where are you guys at in progression? Pally tanks really shine in SSC and TK. Morogrim, Leotheras, Solarian and VR are all fights that are made easier by pally tanks to a certain degree. The best thing to do is to let your actions speak louder than words and just kick ass at tanking. Also, don't give pally tanks a bad name... Have good attendance with your guild, don't throw fits when you're asked to heal, get the best possible out-of-raid gems/enchants/gears etc.

My guild was the same way at first when we were just starting SSC. I didn't push to respec to prot until we had enough holy pallies to replace my healing spot and until we were at bosses that it helped to have pally tanks on. I was also a frequent visitor to these forums. When it was time for me to respec, I had the gear, knowledge and a will to succeed. I didn't disappoint them.

I'm now our raid leader and GM and they couldn't trust in me or believe me more. I've tanked most of everything in SSC and TK and having a pally tank for Morogrim, Leotheras and Solarian significantly enhanced our rate of progression. We have never done Leo without me tanking Human form and our FR warrior tanking demon form for example.

Best of luck to you.

As far as progression, we just downed Tidewalker yesterday. The guild tried to do tidewalker without a protection paladin, and they could not do it. Once i got pulled in, we were able to down him - even though the gear of my pally is not even T4. I do my best not to give tankadins a bad name - after all, if i did it would reduce people's confidence in me as well. I'll do my best to kick ass at tanking - I'm desperately working on better gear and i'm on these forums every day to make sure i do not miss any new technique or general knowledge that would make tanking an encounter successful. Thanks for the advice!

Denogran · 12/07/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

Because certain heals do end up giving healing aggro to the healed person (Earth Shield being a good example), it is not that uncommon to see the murlocs aggro the tank. It is certainly a sight to see of course. You would think that the murlocs would eat up the warrior's shield block charges and cause him to get crushed by morogrim but we've never had a tank death due to this (Maybe we're just lucky).

Anytime that this happens, I throw my shield at them if I can and taunt them as well. If any remain, it doesnt take long for our healers to pull healing aggro back off of the morogrim tank. Once they start heading for the healers, they hit my consecrate and then stick to me like glue. Like I said in a previous post, I think our healers TRY to pull and keep aggro on the murlocs. You'll never see a raid get healed to full so quickly after an earthquake.

Hello fellow Gilneas peep. Sparda actually rocks 2 prot-specced pallies now, which kicks ass. My guild's determined that a prot spec pally is basically required for TW, Al'ar, and I think Kael, which means I can take vacations without killing the guild.

As for the tank aggro - our mantra is no PoM, no Earthshield, and I think a Druid heal does it as well on the tank during murlocs. Same deal with tanks on the platforms for Al'ar. Those heals just aren't worth the hassle of the confusion that results.

teflamreilavehc · 12/09/07, 3:27 PM

I came upon this thread about a week or so ago (first time visitor to elitistjerks) and I am delighted by the vast wealth of intelligent discussion going on here. My guild mate Firebrandt on my server has been prot since the beginning of time, and I've recently respecced now that the number of holy paladins in my guild allows me a little more freedom. The two of us have more or less worked out most of what we know on our own, so it's great to read this thread and find out a) we got a lot of stuff right (even by accident) and b) there's a lot we hadn't even thought of. That said there are a few questions that I've been puzzling over:

Whats the point of taking Benediction? Is there any reason at all for Tankadins to have Mp5 (outside of 5 mans)? Whats the point of the t6 2-piece set bonus?

I've seen many pallies post builds in this thread that included benediction, and the criticism they received was always directed elsewhere (at anticipation or reckoning for example, but never benediction). It seems to me that if you're tanking any sort of raid content you're taking enough damage and getting enough heals to sustain any spells you would want to cast. For the most part our mana expenditure has a cap set by our cooldowns. Given the "worst" case scenario, where we're casting every threat spell we have exactly when the cooldown is up (ideal, I know) we have:
82.5 mps: Consecrate (660 mana, 8 second CD)
28.0 mps: Holy Shield (280 mana, 10 sec CD)
73.3 mps: Hammer of Wrath (440 mana, 6 sec CD)
22.7 mps: Exorcism (340 mana, 15 sec CD)
18.4 mps: Judgement (147 mana*, 8 second CD**)
32.5 mps: Seal of Righteousness (250 mana, cast every 8 seconds)
------------
257.4 mps expenditure

*I'm human, the base mana pool for other races may vary slightly and thus the cost of judgement.
**Improved, which increases mps expenditure.

So in order to sustain that with SA alone, you would need to suffer 2574 DPS (and the healing required to survive). Now I only have Karazhan experience as a tank so far (GL experience as a healer), but it seems to me like that isn't too unimaginable. You could of course increase your mps expenditure by casting Avenger's Shield every 30 seconds (but who does that?) or casting more than one seal per judgement (as I do frequently, but not regularly). I read earlier in this post about buffs (notably seals) causing threat, do people spam seals every GCD when they are between CDs? Even then, there would still be cap, albeit a bit higher. I haven't clocked yet the dps I take from raid bosses, but another tank told be he was taking 1300-1600 from GL trash, and it seems things would only hit harder from then on.

In reality, our mana expenditure is much lower, and we require much less damage to sustain it. Things like lag, targets being above 20%, and targets being non-undead decrease the amount of spells available to us to burn our mana. In Karazhan I can cast LoH with impunity because a few seconds later I'm back at half mana again. How does the mana expenditure increase as the content becomes more difficult in order to warrant that T6 two-piece set bonus?

Rorus Raz · 12/09/07, 11:16 PM

On trash I pretty much have to chug mana pots to keep up. Now, I can drink in certain places, but with ZA's timed run it's a potential time waster to have to slow down for mana.

Prinsesa · 12/09/07, 11:19 PM

As for the tank aggro - our mantra is no PoM, no Earthshield, and I think a Druid heal does it as well on the tank during murlocs. Same deal with tanks on the platforms for Al'ar. Those heals just aren't worth the hassle of the confusion that results.

If I recall my mechanics correctly, the threat generated by PoM and Earthshield's heals are attributed to the person that got healed, instead of the Priest/Shaman that cast the buff.

The same holds true for Lifebloom's Bloom effect when dispelled or expired, although the individual ticks still generate threat for the Druid.

I agree though that it might be better to just call off all heals completely.

@teflamreilavehc: I believe we need Benediction to access tier 2-3 of the Ret tree. Even if your raid does not have a completely PvE specced Holydin to provide Improved BoMight and even if your raid has enough physical DPS to justify the relatively marginal AP bonus of talented over untalented BoM, at the end of the day you're still not using it for tanking, which makes it more of a waste than Benediction providing excess mana.

PsiVen · 12/10/07, 12:14 AM

That's correct, PoM is probably the most useful heal in the game in threat-sensitive situations like that.

Morgain · 12/10/07, 6:18 AM

Hey there, thanks for the very nice info in this thread. I have myself recently respecced to tanking (again) after a long period of being a holy pala. We lacked tanks and since I had some very nice gear from the old days I gave it a shot.
We have completed Kara, Gruul on farm and are working in ZA and TK atm. So we don't have the same progress as many others.

I do have a question which might seem idiotic to the veterans here, but i hope you take the time to help me out.

I have one hell of a hard time to stay second on agro when offtanking bosses. I sit on 300 SD and 5.6k mana buffed and I seem to go oom very very fast. Ok so I use judgement of wisdom and boom my agro drops. I can't even drink manapots that fast. It seems that as soon as I'm not the MT and get agro from Holyshield I'm doomed to fail.
Can anyone help me out with some tips and tricks to stay second on agro in fights like gruul and VR for instance?

Thanks in advance.