Protection and you! - Page 17

PsiVen · 11/08/07, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Well, neither reckoning or 1hws are essential for tanking. Combat Expertise is essential for tanking. 1hws is better than reckoning for tanking, but not so amazingly so that you'll miss it desperately. However, reckoning is not that much better than 1hws when grinding; while you miss the extra swings and the extra triggers from SoL/SoW, you'll gain a ton of damage from holy shield, retribution aura and especially consecrate with 1hws.

Between that and reckoning's increased chance of killing you with a parry gibfest, I think it's the one to be dropped. But it's a very tough thing to drop.

Well, in terms of tanking I agree with you, but when it comes to solo/grinding I will say that Reckoning is far and away more important than 1hws. Light/wisdom procs determine your threshold for surviving indefinitely. I'll certainly be speccing into it when WotLK comes out, or if I go attempt to solo farm crazy shit.

Originally Posted by kalbear

I still think that the easy fix for expertise for paladins is the heroic badge bracers, which are very comparable to anything in kara, fairly cheap, and a good upgrade all around.

Unfortunately they're sorely lacking uncrushability stats, which someone at Kara level would be concerned with.

Oxudes · 11/09/07, 6:13 AM

Heya, was just hoping you guys could give me some advice on how you tank the murlocs at tidewalker.

I've done it as holy (in my previous guild) like this:
-tank gear on
-after quake, I'd heal up the raid (other healers only heal me and MT at this time) with RF to get aggro
-once murlocs came, I'd continue healing, having a designated healer on me to keep me up, while warlocks seeded the murlocs (as many as they can)
-mages would cast flamestrike simultaneously, making the seeds go off - at this point I'd loose aggro and the murlocs would be kited by the warlocks / mages till death (not long)

Now I'm in a new guild and am prot, the second in the tank lineup. I plan to do the same to get aggro (heal the raid after the quake), then consecrate and holy shield to keep them on me, after a while the locks and mages would aoe (hopefully with me having enough aggro to keep them on me).

Any suggestions / hints?

Oh and is it possible to macro divine shield so you use it and cancle it with 1 macro? Tried but couldn't get it right (could be very usefull if I get graved).

tekkel · 11/09/07, 7:00 AM

I usually tank the murlocs on the south side of morogrim while a warrior picks them up north. We have a shadowpriest with VE on moro that gets the murlocs aggrod onto him. This makes it easier to lay down traps and conc to pick them up. It's basicly me standing just behind a hunter trap laying down conc and I got 2 mages and a warlock usually to kill them. No real problems with aggro, I don't heal up anything before they come at all. Warrior tries to do the same on the north side but he's got a harder time ofcourse. We don't make 1 big camp because it's harder to get all the mobs and aggro on all of them if either south or north murlocs join in later. But hunter frost traps and frost nova from mages are your friend to pick up a pack of murlocs. I usually got 1 or 2 going for a warlock/mage and can easily taunt them off. My aoe dps never gets killed by murlocs since I tank them.

Wolftusk · 11/09/07, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

You really only need to drop Anticipation for Reckoning actually; it's just not immediately obvious when speccing from the spec I linked. For example: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

It will force you into taking kings though, not that that's necessarily a bad thing. If you prefer you can just put the single point in Anticipation instead.

Our chance of parry gibfest also isn't that bad (Reckoning sounds worse than it is; double attacks for a while still doesn't compare to basically trying to use an instant parryable attack every 1.5 seconds in addition to auto-attacks), though it is the case next patch that it's likely that while Warriors and Druids have some expertise, it's harder to come by in our gear unless you pick up some special pieces for it (Generally speaking our itemization comes with spell damage where theirs would give expertise, in the case of the pieces that give expertise).

Would dropping anticipation for reckoning something that would be recommended for someone trying to hit uncrushability to get into karazhan?

vorda · 11/09/07, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

Would dropping anticipation for reckoning something that would be recommended for someone trying to hit uncrushability to get into karazhan?

Not really, getting uncrushable and keeping a decent amount of stamina at start is not an easy task (or I dont remember it to be anyway). The stamina part will be easier in 2.3 though.

Thing is, in Kara there are quite a few bosses where those extra parries can make alot of difference when you'r learning it. Maiden and Prince are good examples of this. (and who knows, maybe even nightbane with the 2.3 fear changes)

Wolftusk · 11/09/07, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

Not really, getting uncrushable and keeping a decent amount of stamina at start is not an easy task (or I dont remember it to be anyway). The stamina part will be easier in 2.3 though.

Thing is, in Kara there are quite a few bosses where those extra parries can make alot of difference when you'r learning it. Maiden and Prince are good examples of this. (and who knows, maybe even nightbane with the 2.3 fear changes)

Yeah, i did not think so. I guess i just have to face the fact that for a while, i will have to drop Reckoning. At the point where uncrushability is less of a concern, i will probably respec back to reckoning.

Zapf · 11/09/07, 10:40 AM

At what point progression wise would it actually be viable to drop some/all points in anticipation? Right now I'm not much higher than the uncrittable cap (497 according to my armory), and it seems like, with most of my upgrade options being from za, where defense in general is low (but block rating/value galore), removing anything from anticipation is not an option. Are people in this position usually using a [Scarab of Displacement] or other high defense trinket instead of 2 stam trinkets?

• Chicken · 11/09/07, 11:04 AM

I'm using two stam trinkets myself, but as I'll freely admit I have an excellent set of rings/necklace/shield which I'm certain not all of us will have as easy access too (Tier 5 tank rings, Kael'thas tank necklace and Kaz'rogal shield are what I'm referring to here, the rest of my gear is tier 4/karazhan, with the exception of my boots which are from Shade of Akama instead; I'm including this because at the moment of this post the armory shows me in my healing gear instead). If I switch out my [Pepe's Shroud of Pacification] for my [Phoenix-Wing Cloak] I'm on 520 defense in total, so I can easily afford dropping Anticipation myself.

I'd only ever recommend dropping Anticipation if you really do not feel you need it; it's even not a bad avoidance talent if you don't feel you need any other talent. And simply put, it's 3.2% less chance to be crushed, and also covers 0.8% of your crit immunity, both of which you'll likely need if you're not in tier 5+ raid gear.

Questioner · 11/09/07, 11:15 AM

Personally, I do not feel at ANY given point is it wise to drop anticipation. It is worth 3.2% crush avoidance and counts towards the anti-crit cap, something that can actually be tough with T5/ZA level gear when you are gearing for max stamina.

If you are speccing for an MT role, your soloing is crappy either way. Don't gimp your raid for what you do off-time. Its time for reckoning to be dropped.

Ninja Edit: Wow, in the time I went to the bathroom and came back to post my reply, it was already outdated.

kalbear · 11/09/07, 1:06 PM

Oh and is it possible to macro divine shield so you use it and cancle it with 1 macro? Tried but couldn't get it right (could be very usefull if I get graved).

Not with one button press, no. The best macro I've found does DS if you don't have it up and cancels it if you do, and you can spam it. But that's about it.

Denogran · 11/09/07, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Oxudes

Heya, was just hoping you guys could give me some advice on how you tank the murlocs at tidewalker

....

Any suggestions / hints?

Oh and is it possible to macro divine shield so you use it and cancle it with 1 macro? Tried but couldn't get it right (could be very usefull if I get graved).

Both questions you asked are answered in the very first post. See Post #1, points 3c (Specific Fights) and 4a (Helpful Macros).

Foofu · 11/09/07, 2:22 PM

We should really add a section with real math (or simulator or spreadsheet results or something people can fact check, not just napkin math) to the first post about reckoning vs. 1-hand if we're going to preach it as gospel.

Other useful talent related points to add would be how the 4% from spell warding stacks with the 6% from RF, why vindication is worthless, etc...

g0dsmacked · 11/09/07, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by g0dsmacked

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my current build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my 2.3 build ( granted the tool tips havent changed to reflect, but thats where the points will be)

i maintain 1200 threat per second when tanking a mob, and can peak at 1700. when i use avenging wrath i can maintain 1600 for 20seconds. with the new patch my threat should not change but i am giving up argent defender for 10% stam, and the expertise.

• Chicken · 11/09/07, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Foofu

We should really add a section with real math (or simulator or spreadsheet results or something people can fact check, not just napkin math) to the first post about reckoning vs. 1-hand if we're going to preach it as gospel.

Other useful talent related points to add would be how the 4% from spell warding stacks with the 6% from RF, why vindication is worthless, etc...

Lots of that is going to come when I (finally) get around to adding a talent section. I'll include the obvious selection of specs as well, but I'll mostly cover talents and their mechanics.

Any contributions in that direction I also welcome; I'm not particularly good at math at any real level, especially when it involves probability.

g0dsmacked · 11/09/07, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Oxudes

Heya, was just hoping you guys could give me some advice on how you tank the murlocs at tidewalker.

I've done it as holy (in my previous guild) like this:
-tank gear on
-after quake, I'd heal up the raid (other healers only heal me and MT at this time) with RF to get aggro
-once murlocs came, I'd continue healing, having a designated healer on me to keep me up, while warlocks seeded the murlocs (as many as they can)
-mages would cast flamestrike simultaneously, making the seeds go off - at this point I'd loose aggro and the murlocs would be kited by the warlocks / mages till death (not long)

Now I'm in a new guild and am prot, the second in the tank lineup. I plan to do the same to get aggro (heal the raid after the quake), then consecrate and holy shield to keep them on me, after a while the locks and mages would aoe (hopefully with me having enough aggro to keep them on me).

Any suggestions / hints?

Oh and is it possible to macro divine shield so you use it and cancle it with 1 macro? Tried but couldn't get it right (could be very usefull if I get graved).

depends on your threat generation, i have 410 spell damage and maintain about 1000 tps on aoe targets so warlocks and mages cannot take the threat away from me, generaly i call the aoe about 4-6 seconds worth of concencrations after they get to me. argent defender is great for getting stragglers, and try to get a shadow priest in your group you will need the mana if you are using your spells right, cast heals till they get to you, and remeber having concencrate up is more important than anything else. then shield block, and on aoe mobs i use JOW and SOW cause mana regen in melee actualy causes a good deal of threat.