Becca

I think it's nice for threat, but Eye of Magtheridon and Tome of Fiery Redemption (or whatever al'ar drops) are better for it.

I don't see 1750 HP for 15 seconds being incredibly useful compared to straight +stamina trinkets or damage reduction trinkets (adamantine figurine) but it could save your butt on... say Lynx boss transitions in ZA or a bad bubble in Magtheridon.

 

kalbear

I've not done any 25-man offtanking; this is from the heroic/normal system. If I'm not getting hit, I'll go OOM after about 4 cycles of threat.

I can't see your point about being able to pot sooner. The mana usage doesn't vary depending on your pool size. Neither does the mana you get back from the pot. If you spend 3000 mana, it doesn't matter if you have 4000 or 40,000. You'll still gain back that 3000, and you can still use it just as fast. I suppose if you had a mana pool where the pool size was actually smaller than a mana pot's return, this might be an issue...but to my knowledge the base mana at 70 is well over any mana pot's regen ability.

If you have 1000 more mana, that means you'll get one cast of consecrate, SoR and judge. That's it. That's what, a 10-second cycle? Let me put it this way - if you go OOM on every 5 man and 10 man pull with spiritual attunement, why do you think that intellect is going to help you at all when doing OTing for 6 minutes?

You can't help but get some int on gear. But you don't need it, it's certainly not something you should go out of your way to acquire, and (most importantly) intellect does not help at all from going OOM as an off-tank.

I agree, but the reason those items work is because of spelldamage, not because of intellect. Heck, you can see this in T5 and T6 where there's barely any int over what T4 had (6 points from T4 to T5 and 3 points from T5 to T6) and a ton more SD, mitigation and avoidance. You can see it in the new paladin gear, which doesn't have it at all.

I'm not arguing that paladins need warrior gear over pally gear. I'm arguing that they do not need intellect. Which they don't; the int is basically wasted itemization.

Right, but we're talking offtanking. Now, are you talking about tanking adds or actually being 2nd in aggro? If it's the latter, you have to assume that you're going to be hit as well. Being second on the aggro list means nothing if you'll die when you get hit. I can see an argument that you should switch gear if the MT goes down, but that causes all sorts of issues in combat; trinket cooldowns, GCD triggering, etc. And you're still struggling to actually stay 2nd on the aggro list.

Just seems like it's not a good fit for a paladin especially.

 

g0dsmacked

Wow. You are dumb. No offense.

[http://www.hellfire-empire.net/wow/w...&server=Elune]


http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....96549ZyTsw.png

 

jasura

Say you're going through 1,800 Mana per minute after SA mana gain, in-combat MP5 from wisdom etc... So every two minutes you burn through 3,600 Mana.

Assume tankadin A has 7,000 Mana. Assume Tankadin B has 5,500 Mana. Assume that you are using large mana pots that restore 1,800 - 3,000 Mana on a two minute cooldown, making for 2,400 mana average per mana pot.

After 80 seconds, both tanks will have lost 2,400 mana and will Pot. They are both up to full mana.
120 seconds later, they will pot again. Tank A has 5,800 mana. Tank B has 4,300 mana.
120 seconds later, Mana Pot. Tank A has 4,600 Mana, Tank B has 3,100 mana.
103 seconds later, Tank B goes OOM. This happens exactly 423 seconds into the fight.
17 seconds later, Mana Pot. Tank A has 3,400 mana.
113 seconds later, Tank A goes OOM. This happens exactly 553 seconds into the fight.


In this example, Tank A lasted for approximately 130.73% as long as Tank B, with 127.27% more mana. Depending on how quickly you gain mana and how quickly you lose mana, you may get a bigger or smaller gain from having more mana but the point remains that the more mana you have, the longer you last, even with Mana pot chugging. I can't think of a single boss that I tank that hits me hard enough that I don't have to worry about mana potting so this is important.

This example is NOT factoring in that if Tank A has more mana and the tanks have gear of equivalent item level, Tank A will probably have less mitigation/avoidance than Tank B and as such will take more damage. This means more healing and more mana regen through SA. This is a side effect that is hard to measure but makes a big difference in realistic scenarios.

Almost all OT fights where taunt isn't allowed have some sort of incoming damage to the tanks to help recoup mana/rage starvation so this is important. On Gruul, you have hurtful strike or whatever it's called. On VR, you have pounding. On al'ar, you can taunt so threat while OTing isn't important. On Leo, you're taking damage half of the time and the other half you can white hit to build rage (Druid/warr) or judge wisdom and swing away if you're a pally. Vashj is tauntable. Did I miss any fights where tank swapping is sometimes necessary pre BT/Hyjal?

My experience is only up to SSC/TK so I am not sure about BT/Hyjal bosses. I know that Gurtogg requires some tank swapping but also know that OT's will have stacks of his dot on them for a lot of the time. Either way, my point remains that more mana does make you go OOM slower. It won't prevent it but let's take a look at our example... What if the fights lasts 423 seconds long? The extra mana is completely useless. If it lasts 553 seconds? It can be the difference between a kill and a wipe because the tank went OOM and lost aggro.

What it comes down to is this:

"Pallies cast spells to generate aggro. Spells require mana. Mana comes from intellect. No mana = no aggro. No aggro = you've become a 100 dps paladin with a lot of HP."


Otherwise, I agree with most of your points Kalbear. Intellect isn't something that you go out of your way to get or socket/enchant your gear to get. Every fight is situational. If you're taking enough damage that the mana regen is greater than your mana output... Hell yes, a larger mana pool is useless. I just haven't found this to be the case on nearly every mob I've ever tanked and find myself going OOM in combat sometimes with my mana pot on CD.

 

◊ Cathela

It's not that simple; it's a system with inflow and outflow. When OT'ing, you're spending mana on SoR/JoR, consecration, and AS. You're also gaining mana from BoW, healing from any incidental damage you take (e.g., VR pounding), chugging mana pots, possibly JoW, and possibly other sources like a shadow priest or totem.

From these, you can figure out the net rate at which you're gaining or (more likely) losing mana. If you're spending a net 1000 mana per minute offtanking, then 1000 more mana means you can keep up your full threat cycle one minute longer, which may very well be the difference between getting Voidreaver's aggro back and not. It certainly has for me on more than one occasion.

This doesn't apply strictly to offtanking situations either. For me, tanking Al'ar adds is usually a negative net mana-flow proposition, even when chug pots and eat all the explosions, etc. By the end of the fight I'm often low on mana or out of mana, so that's a place where having a bit more intellect helps as well.

Intellect-free gear is great when you're MT'ing something that's hitting fast and hard, but it's problematic in a lot of other situations.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

kalbear

Okay, I understand better what you're saying. I disagree; I think that more stamina/spelldamage would be better than more intellect most of the time, but I can see it applying in some cases.

I also don't think that coming up with hypothetical cases is particularly useful; for instance, the 7000 mana vs. 5500 mana is another +100 intellect, and you're assuming that that +100 int didn't go somewhere else useful for itemization. It doesn't factor in the ability to maintain aggro with higher spelldamage by downranking. But I'll leave it be. One last thing though:
In your above example, it doesn't mean that the tank went OOM for the entire encounter. It means that they're not gaining as much as they need to use max rank abilities at all times. They still will get a pot 17 seconds after they go OOM, for instance, and presumably they'll still be regenerating mana. Let's not exaggerate things entirely; they're not going to be doing white damage for the next 2 minutes and twiddling their thumbs while the other tank would be at full blast. They just won't be putting out as much damage in that time.

Assuming they didn't turn that int into something more useful, that is.

 

JulianMaiev

No. Mana comes from incoming damage.

Intellect is just about as relevant a stat for us as it is for shadow priests, whose mana comes from outgoing damage.

If you want more mana, figure out a way to take more damage without creating more lethal spikes.

 

◊ zeidrich

This thread makes me sad due to the lack of numbers and facts, and the huge amount of conjecture and pure ranting.

Offtanking: My offtanking threat rotation is 8 seconds. This particular setup is using no damage consumables.

JoR averages 808 damage
Consecration is 207 damage per second or 1656 damage per cycle
SoR does 180 damage per 1.8 seconds or 800 damage per cycle
Melee does 98 damage average or 435 damage per cycle.

With precision and no hit rating you have 6% chance to miss. With weapon Expertise you have ~3.5% chance to be dodged/parried. So we will take 10% off the melee swings.

With precision and no spell hit rating you have 14% chance to miss, so we will take that off of JoR.

JoR = 808*.86 = 695
Con = 1656 = 1656
SoR = 800*.9 = 720
Melee = 435*.9 = 392

Calculating threat:

JoR = 695*1.9 = 1321
Cons = 1656*.9 = 3146
SoR = 720*1.9 = 1368
Melee = 392

Total = 6227 / 8 = 778.37 TPS

Consider Avenging Wrath: 20 seconds with 3 minute cooldown.

Under Avenging Wrath you're doing 778.37*1.3 = 1011 TPS.

Mana Use:
SoR = 260 * .85 = 221
JoR = 145 * .85 = 123
Cons = 660

[top] 1004 * 5/8

625 mp5

Standing mp5 = 0
Super Manas mp5 = 100
Mana Drain = 525 mp5 or 105 mana/sec

Mana Pool Unbuffed: 6535

Time to OOM: 62 seconds

OOM TPS:
Judge every 17.2 seconds.
SoR = 1368 T/8s
JoR = 1321 * 8/17.2 = 614 T/8s
Melee = 392

[top] 2374 /8

296 TPS

OOM Mana consumption:
(221 + 123) / 17.2 = 20mana/sec = 100 mp5


So from just these numbers you can see that you can burst 1100 TPS for 20 seconds. You can settle down and maintain 770 TPS for another 45 seconds after that. Once you are OOM you are pushed down to 300 TPS. This does not count any mana gains from Spiritual Attunement. This does not count intellect buffs. This assumes you never get attacked. This also does not consider windfury or any other buffs you might have on you, this also does not count reckoning. This also does not count judgement of wisdom. This also includes melee parry chance which wont happen if you attack from behind.

Assume a fight like void reaver. Now pretend it's worst case scenario where you screw up early or your other tanks have a huge avoidance streak and you NEVER get aggo. (not going to happen realistically). Thus you only take pounding damage.

Over a 5:50 kill, I took 104,000 damage from pounding. That would be an additional 10,400 mana. Assuming the pounding is equally distributed that is 10400 / 350 * 5 = 149 mana/5 seconds.

Plug that into our Time to OOM calculations.

625 - 100 - 149 = 376 mana/5 = 75.2

Now assume you have kings (+26 int = 390 mana) unimproved Wild (+14 int = 210 mana) Brilliance (+40 int = 600 mana) = 1200 more mana.

= 7735 mana.

Gives you 102 seconds.

On a fight like Void Reaver, without being targetted once, you can maintain a full threat rotation for 1:42. This would mean using a maximum of one potion. Your OT threat would range from 770 to 1100 TPS. As soon as you pull hate these calcs mean nothing because SA will probably fill your mana bar for that period of time and your TPS will go way up because you can include holy shield.

A druid or a warrior could not maintain a max threat cycle for that long in those circumstances. They would run through rage far too quickly.


Anecdotally: The only times I've had problems off tanking is if I screw up. If I misplace my consecrate early in the fight and it's not hitting them, or I screw up some other way and end up way down the rung. I have built secondary threat on Moroes, Void Reaver, Gurtogg, Essence of Desire, pretty much any Backup-Tank fight, except for Gruul, because at the time we were doing him we had 2 prot warriors for karazhan.

This was all on learning attempts as well, this is not a matter of me doing after we are on farm status.

The only time I've ever doubted my ability as an OT was on Moroes, early in karazhan, when I was geared up almost entirely in warrior gear. Even then the only changes I needed to make were wizard oil, blackened basilisks, and more aggressive potting.

If you are having real trouble, either you are not being aggressive enough in your threat rotation, and thus not pulling aggro, or else you need more spell damage or intellect.

Intellect is somewhat important because it cheaply increases your maximum time to OOM. In terms of item budget, 3 int is roughly 1mp5. That means that if you're only lasting a minute and a half before you're OOM anyways, the 3 int gives you 45 mana, the 1 mp5 gives you 18 mana. Considering in a backup-tank situation, your initial burst is the most important because this is what gives you aggro, and once you have it, SA carries you. But that said I wouldn't go out of my way for it, but it is something you lose for gearing in warrior gear instead of paladin gear.

The only place this theory may not hold is Gruul. I have never tried OTing him, though I know paladins who have had successes. Maybe for that encounter we do struggle. But there are other encounters where we make up for it.

In short, my paladin can generate OT threat fine assuming I occasionally get attacked. Nearly 800 average sustained TPS is fine for an OT for all content that I have done. (Now 5/5 7/9)

 

◊ zeidrich

Intellect limits the maximum amount of threat you can do before you start taking damage.

Mana is rarely a concern when you are actively tanking.

 

kalbear

Right, but what's the equivalent in other stats? If you swapped int for spelldamage, you'd go OOM just as fast but your initial burst and your OOM damage would be better; even with another 100 int (or 1500 mana) you'd still go oom (using your numbers) in 15 seconds. 15 seconds of 470 TPS (the difference in burst threat vs OOM threat) is 11550 threat total. What spelldamage would be required to replace that? Depends on the fight length, I suppose.

Assuming the .5 TPS = 1 SD from the beginning of the thread, you'd get the following
60 seconds: 235 SD
120 seconds: 117
180 seconds: 78 SD
240 seconds: 59 SD
300 seconds: 47 SD
360 seconds: 39 SD
420 seconds: 33 SD
480 seconds: 29 SD
540 seconds : 26 SD
600 seconds: 23 SD

For shorter fights where no mana is regenerated at all, int is clearly better. For longer fights under the same circumstances, SD is much, much better since spelldamage is cheaper itemization-wise than int is. That's not saying that int isn't good; it'll add some TPS, clearly. And since you can't pick and choose what you get, int might be what you deal with. But for OTing, it looks like it's better to go with higher SD than int if you have a choice.

Also note that in the first case you'd be much better off with spelldamage since you won't be OOM. It's only in the 120/180/240 second range that it becomes something to consider.

 

◊ zeidrich

Be realistic. I would never tell you to put on [Pendant of the Violet Eye]. But I challenge you to show me a piece of real top end paladin tank armor that has intellect on it but does not have spell damage.

Intellect is paired with spell damage. Dropping spell damage typically drops intellect.

My point was against wearing warrior gear. It was not the relative value of spell damage versus intellect. Intellect is not useless. Spell damage is more important, but most of your tank gear is going to have both on it. Unless you pick warrior tank gear where you get neither.

Edit: I also wanted to clarify that I do not think that intellect is better than spell damage. I would never drop damage for int. But like something like parry rating, while it might not be as good as another stat, it doesn't mean it has no value at all.

 

kalbear

True - but my point was that intellect isn't necessary on armor and is for the most part wasted (I originally responded to the notion that paladins 'need' intellect, which I see occasionally here and on the official forums). You can see this in the newer itemization; some of the badge rewards are ignoring it completely, as are a few of the drops in BT that aren't the actual tier sets.

I guess I'll sum up. When MTing it's important to safely take as much damage as you can in order to maximize mana throughput. Intellect doesn't help with that - effective health does. When OTing it's important to maximize your damage output. Int helps with that, but doesn't help as much as other stats do - and spelldamage is the more important stat here. (and point of fact, if you go OOM you may be better off going with SoB and a big tanking sword instead)

 

JulianMaiev

Honestly, if you go totally OOM OTing I think your best bet may be to repeatedly remove and reequip your weapon and shield so that you can get healed.

In my case, I'm punting 96 stamina or ~1200ish HP every time I do that. Getting healed up from that is gonna get you 120 mana and 60 threat from SA; if you time it well with your weapon swings, it costs you minimal threat to do this.

Now, I'm not claiming that int is totally irrelevant. Obviously you'd rather have more than less. But it certainly isn't worth seeking out.

One place where int *is* especially interesting is in situations such as VR where you will sometimes have aggro and sometimes not have aggro. When you lose aggro after having it, you'll normally be full mana or close to it, so you're getting multiple cracks at a full mana pool and a boss you don't have aggro on. So in that situation, having another 1k mana max pool is likely to give you an additional 2k or 3k mana over the course of the fight.

 

jasura

So basically, you're saying that there are two ways to extend your time until OOM as a pally tank: More intellect OR more spelldamage+downranking. You think that spelldamage is a more efficient stat. That's an interesting argument and one bound to stir up some more calculations and theorycraft.

I still agree with Zeidrich though in that there are not a lot of situations where SIMILAR pally tanking gear puts a pally tank into a position where you're choosing between the two pieces of armor whereas one has more spelldamage and the other has more intellect. Even if you were in such a situation, you can count on that they are both better for OTing than the warrior equivalent.

 

kalbear

Actually, I'm saying that it's better to stack spelldamage when OTing than it is to stack intellect, because it doesn't matter when the threat is dealt - it just matters what your overall threat is. Downranking doesn't factor into that at all. Extending your time until OOM isn't important since you could just put out more threat early. Heck, one could argue that the best way to maximize your threat is to maximize your damage when AW is up, and that happens when you maximize spelldamage.

To my knowledge no one's done all that much actual testing on the coefficients of downranking damaging spells; if they have (especially for seals) I'd love to see it.

As to comparing pally gear with/without, here's a good one: [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian] vs [Justicar Chestguard] vs [Crystalforge Chestguard]. The stoic guardian has the most damage/healing, better stamina and better avoidance; what it doesn't have is int. Is 30 int worth 8 SD? For longer fights, yep. That doesn't mean you should get rid of the set bonus for T4, but it might be worth it for T5, especially given how good the chestpiece is in general (and how bad the 2-piece set bonus is for T5)

Anyway - long story short, paladins don't need intellect.

 

Denogran

To the first part, and I can't stress this enough - If you're dead, it doesn't matter how well you held the mob. We're tanks. Our job is to stand there (sometimes move around slowly) and take a beating. We're not there for our damage. So any threat you're doing past what your top dps is putting out is completely wasted. Having 400 spell damage and real tanking stats is far better than having 600 spell damage and weak tanking stats, unless your healers are mindlessly bored. As a tank, I always assume that while I'm going to get healed, it's going to be my responsibility to help keep myself alive as much as possible. Maxing out your threat beyond that of what your dps can do doesn't help, well anything.

As for the second part, that's entirely not true. Read through the Pally Maintanking thread in these class forums, and you'll find plenty of examples of paladins that gear exclusively in warrior gear, and compensate with a high spell-damage weapon, flasks and food buffs. Take a weapon like [Amani Punisher], enchant it with major spell power, and use [Flask of Blinding Light], [Blackened Basilisk] and [Superior Wizard Oil] and you're rocking over 400 spell damage without wearing any pally piece of armor. Given that [Flask of Fortification] buffs hp and not stamina, you only need to wear about 42 more stamina on your gear to compensate. Assuming from gem choices that 9 spell damage has the same itemization points as 12 stamina, you're getting over twice as much utility out of that flask - while at the same time probably increasing your tanking stats and ignoring weaker stats like intellect from the resulting armor choices. (I don't generally practice what I preach though, as my guild sells me Marks of the Illidari on the cheap, and my stamina/avoidance set isn't quite as nice as my spell damage set).

But you're not at all. Wearing mail and healing gear means you're not substantially better than a holy pally with a few points in prot. The only time I ever run out of mana on Al'ar's adds (and I'm very much the defacto add tank at this point), is in the early stages when I resist a explosion or two. With me tanking the adds, we can start holding them when he's around 50% in phase 1, which means we have 4-6 adds with ~20% health ready to be insta-gibbed when P2 starts. Trust me, starting phase 2 with Al'ar at 85% health makes the fight go way easier. And once you start holding adds in P1, you'll basically never run out of mana. Burn Al'ar down to around 30-35%, and then let your dps go nuts on him while you just easily kite the adds that show up around. Multi-mob control - that's our strength - use it (also, use your shield or taunt to pick up the adds, it's much simpler than healing).

Don't take this as me attacking you, I just don't understand how you're better in this role than a dps warrior or a ret pally with a shield strapped on? Or even a holy pally with a bit of tanking gear?

I gotta say, I sorta hate when people say this as a tank. In fact, I think it's the exact opposite, and minimizing damage intake while safely minimizing mana throughput is far and away the most important thing. If people wanted someone to solely come in and hold aggro, they'd find their nearest friendly lock.

 

PsiVen

For very specific fights, yes. But for the vast majority at T5+, SA easily exceeds mana expenditure such that 30 int isn't even worth 1 SD, it's just plain worthless. That's the problem with it. It would be just fine if it gave a secondary benefit such as, oh, about 1% dodge per 25 Intellect.

 

Demisamurai

Hi all

Being new to posting yet having been a reader of this particular thread for awhile I'll throw in my two pence worth.

I've found that Intellect is essential wherever you can afford it, I've forsaken +150 hp on chest in favour of +6 all stats purely for that extra bit of intellect. I've also put five points in Divine Intellect as opposed to one handed specialisation.

Having tanked in 25 man raids I have a bad habit of running out of mana on trash. Obviously on bosses that is not an issue and although I can easily change gear at the click of a button (thanks Outfitter) I still prefer to have a somewhat 'rounded' set that I can take into 25 man raids and not have to change from one pull to the next.

I'm also an enchanter and have given up the 24 spell damage on rings for the +4 all stats enchant on rings, as it not only gives 8 stamina but 8 intellect and 8 spirit (not to mention 8 agility). The spirit in a raid gives me a tiny amount of spell damage back via kindly priests putting points into making it improved.

So although I have improved my gear considerably in the few months that I have been tanking I highly value intellect and attempt to balance my stats out wherever I can.

I have on more than one ocassion gotten into a debate with fellow raiders about wanting Blessing of Wisdom over Blessing of Light.

Ultimately My spec and my preferences to it will always change depending on my gear and a Paladin tank with no mana is useless.

Regards

Demisamurai

Paladin

 

Hiroko

Odd way to get initial aggro on a single mob, but if it works for you, then that's fine.

We did Al'ar again last night so it's fresh in my mind again (especially as I won his cloak )
I don't tank the adds in my boss-tanking gear either.
What I do use is my 5-man aggro tanking set.
I take off my pure avoidance gear (Maiden's gauntlets, badge leggings, Nightbane's chest etc) and use T4 replacements for it.
My spelldamage goes over 500, my mana pool hits about 8k buffed and I drop around 3k hp - but I maintain high armour and over 490 defence.
We still stack adds at the end of phase 1, and can quite happily sit there with 3 or 4 on me while waiting for phase 2 to start.

Our method for me getting aggro is for one of the hunters to aggro the add when it spawns, and as it arrives at the base of the ramp, I simply taunt it and JoR. The hunter has to put 3 or 4 shots on it then go back to Al'ar, so it doesn't interupt his dps much, but it saves a heck of alot of my mana instead of trying to get it by healing aggro. After a quill I follow the tank to the upper platform and wait there for a new add, picking it up with consecration, or avenger's shield if I was a bit late arriving.
In phase 2 I have a macro that will target one of the adds spawning from the meteor, raid mark it, and cast avenger's sheild at it, allowing me to quickly get aggro and back up to one of the walls, while range dps take down the adds one at a time - marked one first. I tank both adds together in phase 2, freeing up the other tanks for taunt rotations on Al'ar himself, or bear tanks to go dps.

If the ranged dps get trigger happy in phase 2 or I resist a couple of explosions in a row, then I may start to run into mana problems and need to pot. Mana for phase one has never been a problem though.

 

Gunn

I have no idea what gear you saw when you checked my armory, however I can assure you I wasn't wearing healing gear. I did replace Warrior gear pieces with Spell damage pieces. and I was holding on to multiple Al'ar adds at a time. This was our first kill on Al'ar and I do want to tank more adds to bring into phase 2. I can tell you that with the gear I had on I could have easily taken on 4-5 adds at once without any trouble. And the adds I did take into phase 2 were at 15-20% HP. The reasons I wore the spell gear are
A: I was drawing aggro by healing, the more healing the more threat. It actually works VERY well, I suggest you try it
B: The faster I get threat the faster DPS can burn down
- Right now when an add spawns, the Warlock is at 50% HP. I heal him back and by the time the Add(s) get to me I will consecrate once and judge righteousness on the first one to be killed. DPS can immediately start after I judge. BTW the adds go right for me and rarely ever hit anyone else first. I don't have to worry about misses and hardly ever need to use avenger shield (unless i just want to help out DPS).
C: The only time I take substantial damage is when the Add blows up, all the Def/avoidance in the world isn't going to help that only FR will.

If you want to see it in action go here Impervious 1st show al'ar The video is filmed from the perspective of the warlock I was healing to gain Healing threat.

I'm not offended at your comment, I like constructive criticism. I'm trying to be the best pally tank anyone's seen.

Added stats from Al'ar fight below
Here is the average Normal damage I took from al'ar adds in that gear is "959"
The average Fire Damage (when the blow up) is "6032"
Even with 5 adds pounding me I still have more than enough HP to stay alive
and that is with mostly DPS gear substituted for pure Warrior gear.
* it's worth noting that I hardly used Holy Shield at all during the fight

 

Hustle

What's wrong with Avenger Shielding them? It's the perfect tool for target acquisition in this fight, not using it is silly. Mark one after the shield hits for DPS to start on, and back yourself to the wall. You should want to get hit by the birds blowing up, it's probably the only way you'll sustain any sort of mana pool. The birds hit for very very little.

www.grandcrusader.blogspot.com

 

Left

Speaking of mana efficiency and maximizing threat, is there any consideration to using a SoV/SoR rotation while offtanking? (Obviously, Alliance-only option here.) IE, SoV... Judge, SoR... Judge, rinse, repeat. The idea would be to stack the 15 second DoT from SoV AND also get a significant benefit from the higher per-swing damage of SoR, allowing some freedom to down-rank consecration and have the same threat output.

SoR obviously scales much better with spell damage, but SoV has a really nice judgment and a very high base DoT. It seems like if you could get a 100% SoV DoT + 50% SoR damage you would be giving yourself quite a threat boost. Or is it simply too risky to get a refresh on the SoV DoT in the 7 seconds you have left after going through 8 second of SoR, between resists, dodges/parries, and the proc chance?

My paladin just got SoV now, and he obviously hasn't had a chance to tank any raid bosses with it, being level 64. I will see if I can pull this rotation on some 5-man bosses, though, and see how it works out.

 

Hiroko

SoV/SoR rotation works to an extent but it's next to impossible to keep up if any sort of movement is involved.
With my S2 mace speed I can just about start with SoV, build a 5 stack, judge it and SoR for 10s, JoR and SoV again without losing the stack of SoV, but it's not reliable and SoV will drop off more often than not. It's probably more doable with the 8s improved judgement.

Doing anything more than that to try and maintain higher threat would mean resealing SoV before you are able to JoR in order to maintain the SoV full stack, and would entail more mana usage. This makes the problem worse as paladin OTing is about trying to maximise threat with limited mana - if we are taking enough damage to have unlimited mana then OTing is not really an issue (constant consecration, judge on every cooldown, avenger's shield on every cooldown etc).

 

Gunn

Well #1 if it misses you're busy chasing birds around the board.

If I'm getting the birds by healing aggro then they come to me and I don't have to chase them.

You're right I do want to get hit, and I absolutely do get hit by them. By them blowing up that is

 

jasura

Either of the three would be a good choice. What you use it for depends on what stats you need, set bonuses etc. My point is that it's a lot better than the chest that drops from Zul'jin, for example.