Protection and you! - Page 22

• Chicken · 11/14/07, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cathela

3% actually. A little bit more when shield block is factored in.

As a good rule of thumb, each point in Toughness reduces physical damage taken by 1% relative to the amount of damage taken without it before shield blocking is considered.

To expand a bit on this, since it's a very common misconception that Toughness suffers from diminishing returns; that's really dependent on how you view armor. If we're taking a look at it from only the tooltip damage reduction, then armor does suffer from diminishing returns. However, if we choose to look at the benefit in regards to how long it'll help you continue living, the benefit from armor actually becomes (nearly) linear.

Let's take a look at an example of different armor values and how they'll help you live with a constant 20k health and 2k incoming purely melee DPS.

0 Armor = 0% Damage Reduction = 2000 DTPS = 10 seconds to live
5000 armor = 32% damage reduction = 1360 DTPS = 14.7 seconds to live (4.7 seconds more)
10000 armor = 48% damage reduction = 1040 DTPS = 19.2 seconds to live (4.5 seconds more)
15000 armor = 58% damage reduction = 840 DTPS = 23.8 seconds to live (4.6 seconds more)
20000 armor = 65% damage reduction = 700 DTPS = 28.6 seconds to live (4.8 seconds more)

As you can see, the actual increase in time to live stays roughly the same at ~4.6 seconds at each interval of 5k armor, or an approximate 45% increase from base time to live per 5k armor, or in a bit smaller terms that are more realistic as upgrades, 4.5% extra time to live per 500 armor. And yes, that is constant with any amount damage taken per second. The opposite also (obviously) applies to armor penetration, but using a "Time to live" metric makes less sense for dealing damage.

Fiola · 11/14/07, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by Foofu

What I remember about it from our old thread is:

That was a tooltip change in 2.1 (2.2?).

The talent itself was already doing what it does today at least 1 patch before the tooltip change.

Before 2.1/2.2 (I don't remember either), it was "+10% damage done with a 1H weapon". That version was SoR/White damage only. (SoC/JoC too, if you spec'd that way)

It was changed to "+5% damage while a 1H was equipped" after said patch and affected all damage done.

Prinsesa · 11/15/07, 12:14 AM

I suppose I should try this when I get home, but maybe someone has already tried:

Will swapping out the Holy Shield libram after HS is already up cause me to lose the 5.3% block value? I've been thinking a lot about the new Heroic SoR Libram, but I don't really have the spare avoidance to ditch the HS Libram just yet.

Petersen · 11/15/07, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I suppose I should try this when I get home, but maybe someone has already tried:

Will swapping out the Holy Shield libram after HS is already up cause me to lose the 5.3% block value? I've been thinking a lot about the new Heroic SoR Libram, but I don't really have the spare avoidance to ditch the HS Libram just yet.

You do lose the 5.33% Block when you change the Libram. Just tested it. =(

• Snowy · 11/15/07, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I've been thinking a lot about the new Heroic SoR Libram, but I don't really have the spare avoidance to ditch the HS Libram just yet.

I've been thinking about this as well, as I upgrade my gear and my avoidance is increasing, the value of [Libram of Repentance] is about to become zero. So the other options for Librams would be:

[Libram of Divine Purpose] -- the new Badge one
[Libram of Zeal] -- Hellfire/Zangermarsh PvP token bought reward
[Libram of the Eternal Rest] -- Darkweaver Syth, Sethekk Halls
[Libram of Truth] -- Magmar, Blackrock Depths
[Libram of Avengement] -- The Maker, Heroic Blood Furnace

The Badge one is the obvious choice, then the Hellfire/Zanger PvP one would seem to be 2nd, with Syth's after that, increasing your damage from Consecration. Libram of Truth is basically like an enchant armor to cloak -- it's a fairly small upgrade but at the same time it's still mitigation. Avengement Libram is probably not much of a threat increase since we don't really depend on our melee damage to begin with.

I think I only need about 1-2% more avoidance and the HS Libram would be almost worthless, or am I missing something? Also if I'm missing another Libram option...

Denogran · 11/15/07, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Petersen

You do lose the 5.33% Block when you change the Libram. Just tested it. =(

When you say you tested it, did you just read the tooltip after switching out? I would suspect that you would lose the block, but it would not surprise me if the holy shield spell checked for the libram, versus the actual hit checking for the libram. Basically the difference between:

if attacked {
   number = roll random;
   if number < 65 {
      Dodge/Miss/Parry/Block(normal block amount)
   } else {
       if Holy Shield {
          if (libram && number < 100ish ) || number < 95 {
             Block
          } else {
             Hit/crush
          }
       }
    }
}

and

if Holy Shield {
  HSnumber = HSNormal(30)+Libram(5.3);
}
if attacked {
   number = roll random;
   if number < normalAmount(65) {
      Dodge/Miss/Parry/Block(normal block amount)
   } else {
       if Holy Shield {
          if number < (normalAmount + HSnumber) {
             Block
          } else {
             Hit/crush
          }
       }
    }
}

I think the only real way to test this would be to dress up in gear that is just at the avoidance cap w/libram (for whatever level of mob you're going to be testing on), and then see if you can cast holy shield, remove the libram, then see if you ever get a normal hit with charges left.

PsiVen · 11/15/07, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by Snowy

I've been thinking about this as well, as I upgrade my gear and my avoidance is increasing, the value of [Libram of Repentance] is about to become zero. So the other options for Librams would be:

[Libram of Divine Purpose] -- the new Badge one
[Libram of Zeal] -- Hellfire/Zangermarsh PvP token bought reward
[Libram of the Eternal Rest] -- Darkweaver Syth, Sethekk Halls
[Libram of Truth] -- Magmar, Blackrock Depths
[Libram of Avengement] -- The Maker, Heroic Blood Furnace

The Badge one is the obvious choice, then the Hellfire/Zanger PvP one would seem to be 2nd, with Syth's after that, increasing your damage from Consecration. Libram of Truth is basically like an enchant armor to cloak -- it's a fairly small upgrade but at the same time it's still mitigation. Avengement Libram is probably not much of a threat increase since we don't really depend on our melee damage to begin with.

I think I only need about 1-2% more avoidance and the HS Libram would be almost worthless, or am I missing something? Also if I'm missing another Libram option...

Well, the obvious choice would be [Tome of the Lightbringer] but there's a small minority of tankadins who have access to that (assuming it drops... sigh). I think Zeal is the best when you're the one putting up Crusader, or Eternal Rest for AoE. The new badge libram is ideal when you have a ret paladin doing Crusader, or in a situation where you need to put up a different judgement. Truth is useful in 10-mans or elsewhere where you provide your own Devotion, but I'd say the threat from other options outweighs an armor boost to an untalented aura.

Has anyone seen any evidence for things being one way or the other?

I believe this was tested during the PTR as 9%, melee hit only, meaning spell hit no longer affects taunts.

Zapf · 11/15/07, 3:24 PM

Has anyone had luck with testing the new fear mechanics with regards to the mob's target in 2.3? I was under the impression that they had changed (or at least SAID they changed) it so that fear doesn't make them switch targets to someone not feared. However, when I got feared in shadow lab yesterday by the demon pats before the first boss, the felguard happily turned around to head after someone else. Did this get reverted?

edit: Looks like the same thing just got asked in the wow paladin forums. Apparently, intimidating shout has a different mechanic for the person it is targeting (like gouge - which is why you stand in place instead of running). Is this true?

galzohar · 11/15/07, 3:27 PM

Consider the felgaurds there switch target regardless, so while this is no proof he *could* have just happened to decide to fear and do his charge at the same time.

Zapf · 11/15/07, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Consider the felgaurds there switch target regardless, so while this is no proof he *could* have just happened to decide to fear and do his charge at the same time.

I guess I should try testing this on the champion nagas in slave pens then? They don't have a charge as far as I remember.

Cathela · 11/15/07, 3:43 PM

I tanked Sanguinar in the Kael fight Tuesday night and the fear worked as expected. He feared me, I ran randomly, and he kept beating on me. Sanguinar has a dragon-style (Ony/Nef) fear -- I think lorewise he's actually a dragon.

Wrathblood · 11/15/07, 6:28 PM

There's a lot of effective health vs avoidance discussion in the warrior thread, but not so much here. Plus, that discussion seems mostly to focus on people proving that 65% avoidance beats 25% avoidance, which isn't really news.

So, for an example, unbuffed, I'm normally 14.3k health and 17.3k armor (incl. Devotion, I'm a stam stacker), with 45% avoidance. However, I can drop to 12.8k health and roughly 15.5k armor and raise my avoidance to 55%. I'm currently MT of a party wrapping up Kara (Prince is on farm, Nightbane isn't a sure thing quite yet) and through the first boss of ZA.

What's a good way of approaching the question of which gear set-up is better?

Denogran · 11/15/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Wrathblood

There's a lot of effective health vs avoidance discussion in the warrior thread, but not so much here. Plus, that discussion seems mostly to focus on people proving that 65% avoidance beats 25% avoidance, which isn't really news.

So, for an example, unbuffed, I'm normally 14.3k health and 17.3k armor (incl. Devotion, I'm a stam stacker), with 45% avoidance. However, I can drop to 12.8k health and roughly 15.5k armor and raise my avoidance to 55%. I'm currently MT of a party wrapping up Kara (Prince is on farm, Nightbane isn't a sure thing quite yet) and through the first boss of ZA.

What's a good way of approaching the question of which gear set-up is better?

Basically there's nothing fundamental that changes when you insert "Paladin" instead of "Warrior" in that thread. Really, it's a matter of personal and group choice. If you're a gamblin' man, and your group doesn't mind occasionally wiping to some "holy shit that was a lot of damage fast" moments, then stack avoidance. If you want your incoming damage to be as predictable as possible, even if that means you might just hit a wall someplace, then stack mitigation and stamina. Basically, avoidance will give you some freak deaths, and some freak successes, meaning sometimes you'll die on stuff you should easily beat, and sometimes you'll beat stuff you might not be expected to.

Personally, I'm not one for extremes, so I tend to try to raise both up equally. Also, you'll note a pretty big emphasis on removing crushing blows, which requires a high base avoidance to make sure holy shield covers the rest. So a pally is sorta required to stack more avoidance than a warrior, because pushing off crushing blows on some fights is an absolute requirement.

kalbear · 11/15/07, 7:16 PM

Presumably crushing blows are off the table no matter what set they use.

I would approach it two ways. The first is by looking at the amount of damage in that is required to keep mana available via SA (assuming mana pots as well). From that, you can look at specific encounters and determine whether or not that boss will be able to do that kind of damage reasonably given certain levels of avoidance. Or at what avoidance level is feasible.

The second is to look at the most common bad case scenario and determine whether or not your HP is adequate to deal with that. That can be accomplished by looking at special attacks, normal attacks, and speed of attacks; for instance, you could assume one special attack followed by a normal and then a parried normal as a baseline. Determine how much damage could possibly be done, and then see whether or not your HP could possibly deal with that after buffing.

My personal view is that it's a lot easier to buff stamina then it is to buff avoidance via consumables, and while less streaky damage is good it is better to deal with more avoidance after you've gotten enough stamina to deal with big streaks as long as the overall item cost isn't too high. In your specific case, I suspect that the 55% avoidance set is too sacrificing HP, and there is likely a sweet spot in between where you have 50% avoidance and around 13.5K HP. That's probably a better compromise.

Prinsesa · 11/15/07, 10:57 PM

Avengement Libram is probably not much of a threat increase since we don't really depend on our melee damage to begin with.

I think it's worth mentioning that the Libram of Avengement's crit rating buff applies to both melee and spell crit, although that doesn't really change much given that the only ability in our tanking repertoire that can crit is JoR.

I like the idea of using Libram of Zeal in the meantime. We don't normally run with a Ret Paladin, I specifically picked up Imp. SotC in my build and I definitely feel the threat increase from using JotC instead of JoW.