Protection and you! - Page 23

Touf · 11/15/07, 10:57 PM

How about some profession discussion? (Warning, somewhat uninformed)

Alchemy - Alchemist's stone is a nice threat trinket, and now you can get a cheap rejuv pot.

Blacksmithing - Nice in T5, useless in T6, but there will probably be more patterns in the future. Some good healing stuff too.

Enchanting - Spell damage on rings is pretty good.

Engineering - Very nice helm, and I guess you can pull with bombs.

Jewelcrafting - A few more stats, but not very useful overall, considering they're mostly +12 stamina.

Leatherworking - Drums. Not all that useful for a tank group.

Tailoring - Nothing.

So far it looks like BS/Engineering early on, switching to Enchanting/Alchemy after T6? If you don't want to relevel, I'd go Alchemy/BS.

vorda · 11/15/07, 11:02 PM

Going alchemy mainly for the potion? Not sure if that would be worth it. The trinket is very nice for healing but far from it when tanking with all the alternatives out there.

I'd probably go BS and Enchanting if I were to tailor my professions for protection.

Petersen · 11/15/07, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

When you say you tested it, did you just read the tooltip after switching out? I would suspect that you would lose the block, but it would not surprise me if the holy shield spell checked for the libram, versus the actual hit checking for the libram. Basically the difference between:

<snip>

I think the only real way to test this would be to dress up in gear that is just at the avoidance cap w/libram (for whatever level of mob you're going to be testing on), and then see if you can cast holy shield, remove the libram, then see if you ever get a normal hit with charges left.

Mmmm, yeah, I didn't do something that exhaustive; I should. I looked at the character sheet and my tank points mod. I'll go try it out now while I wait for my raid.

Yeah, I cast holy shield, changed librams (which, while I was in combat invoked the GCD, so I'm not shure what all the hubbub is about), and was still hit when I should have been seeing only blocks,parries, dodges, and misses.

Prinsesa · 11/15/07, 11:08 PM

I went Engi/Ench myself. The Tankatronic Goggles were just too good to pass up for me since I never thought I'd ever be in T5+ content. Also, the +45 STA trinkets are nothing short of awesome. They're no Darkmoon Cards, but I reckon I've spent less on Engi than if I bought Madness and Vengeance. The Flying Machine just seals the deal

My Enchanting isn't actually high enough for me to use the Ring enchants yet, but that's my goal.

galzohar · 11/15/07, 11:18 PM

IMO ench is the prof every class of every spec should pretty much have, at least at some point of the game. It's a bitch to level but I really can't see any other proffession that would beat that, and even if you decide there is one, then you won't find 2 meaning you should still have enchanting.

Are you really using mana/rejuv pots over ironshields when tanking? Doesn't the extra armor from ironshield automatically makes warriors better tanks for physical damage too if you're needing to use other potions? Not to mention alch stone gimps a trinket slot which can be a bit extra stam (but nothing compared to the extra armor).

Cathela · 11/16/07, 5:12 AM

Originally Posted by Wrathblood

There's a lot of effective health vs avoidance discussion in the warrior thread, but not so much here. Plus, that discussion seems mostly to focus on people proving that 65% avoidance beats 25% avoidance, which isn't really news.

So, for an example, unbuffed, I'm normally 14.3k health and 17.3k armor (incl. Devotion, I'm a stam stacker), with 45% avoidance. However, I can drop to 12.8k health and roughly 15.5k armor and raise my avoidance to 55%. I'm currently MT of a party wrapping up Kara (Prince is on farm, Nightbane isn't a sure thing quite yet) and through the first boss of ZA.

What's a good way of approaching the question of which gear set-up is better?

Gearing for stamina increases the total amount of burst damage you can survive; gearing for avoidance reduces the chance of that worst case happening. But it doesn't reduce it to zero; at some point that worst-case burst will happen, and you'll have to be able to survive it. Given the choice between "I can definitely survive any burst up to 18k" or "I can definitely survive any burst up to 16k and there's a small but non-zero chance of me getting bursted for more than that" I'll take the former.

The other argument is that gearing for avoidance also saves healer mana. But I've never seen a fight where healer longevity was a greater concern than tank survivability, given the amount of mana that can be had from flasking, chain-chugging potions, etc. Going for avoidance might save your healers some gold spent on potions or whatever, but if you wipe because your health pool wasn't quite big enough to survive a burst, then your healers are out all the consumables they spent on that attempt, and so is your dps, and so are you.

That's why I always go for stamina, stamina, stamina, so long as threat and crushes/crits are covered.

--

Re: Profession choice

Given the rate at which badges can be acquired these days, [Sabatons of the Righteous Defender] make it hard to argue for Blacksmithing ([Boots of the Protector]) as an optimal choice. (Or [Jungle Stompers] off of Nalorakk vs. [Red Havoc Boots] if you prefer the non-spelldamage stuff.)

The nice thing about Engineering aside from the helm is that either Gnomish or Goblin engineering gives you access to 45-stam trinkets that are not unique. For people who don't have the cash for Darkmoon cards or an epic mount, that can be a pretty nice option.

galzohar · 11/16/07, 9:06 AM

Avoidance saves healer mana via canceling while stamina saves healer mana via less overhealing, really, so the actual benefit for healer mana is really hard to figure out. The point is that you can't say avoidance helps healer mana while ignoring the healer mana saved by the extra stam, not to mention armor.

Another thing is that for paladins avoidance is actually more useful than for warriors (after crush immunity of course) as the chance for wearing off holy shield with a slow attacking boss (via parries) isn't as high as for a warrior since it requires you not avoiding all the 5 hits (so that they become blocks and use HS up) or have even more boss parries to compensate, which is just much higher chance than for a warrior to not avoid 2 attacks on a parry burst. Since for a paladin there's a (1-avoidance)^5 and for a warrior there's a (1-avoidance)^2 in the "do I get burst?" factor, avoidance helps paladins more. How much more depends on what chance that kind of burst really does have to happen and how much avoidance reduces it - but if it's high then reducing it means it'll still happen and you need to have the stam for it, and if it's a rediculessly low chance (as in something that would happen on average once every 50 fights or more...) then why the hell are you worrying about it anyway, worry about bursts that are more likely to happen.
If you treat all different "types of bursts" the way I just did, you'll see that the effectiveness of avoidance against them is actually not really that great compared to stamina, or that they just have such a low chance of happening (say 5 parry hastes and a crush...) it's really not what you should be worrying about.
So basically either the chance for the burst to happen is already extremely low or that stamina will help you handle it better than the avoidance reducing its chance to happen. And even the low chance burst would still be helped with more stam...
Even though paladins gain more "reduce chance of burst" from avoidance than warriors due to how holy shield works, stmina is probably still better to keep you alive through fights.

Questioner · 11/16/07, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Even though paladins gain more "reduce chance of burst" from avoidance than warriors due to how holy shield works

I am pretty sure you have that completely backwards, considering holy shield is twice as many charges over time than warrior's shield block (8 in 10 vs 2 in 5 ). This means we have a far lower chance of getting crushed. Unless you are referring to some boss that could strip holy shield so fast that its the time before we can put it back up again that you are referring, to.

• Snowy · 11/16/07, 11:47 AM

Something I thought that you might want to address in any FAQ-type section is how your threat from getting hit works off partial and full blocks. i.e. You still will get full threat from Holy Shield/BoSac/Ret Aura off a partial block, the only difference when you fully block an attack is that Retribution Aura will not damage the attacker. BoSac/Holy Shield will always proc off ANY block. See evidence below.

galzohar · 11/16/07, 12:40 PM

I'm saying since you have far fewer chance of getting crushed, additional avoidance boosts it even more, since it has to fail that many more times in order for you to get crushed while for a warrior it only needs to fail twice.
But again no matter how you look at it, it looks like stamina comes on top regardless.

Denogran · 11/16/07, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Petersen

Mmmm, yeah, I didn't do something that exhaustive; I should. I looked at the character sheet and my tank points mod. I'll go try it out now while I wait for my raid.

Yeah, I cast holy shield, changed librams (which, while I was in combat invoked the GCD, so I'm not shure what all the hubbub is about), and was still hit when I should have been seeing only blocks,parries, dodges, and misses.

Mmm that's too bad, but clearly the way it would be expected to work. This was really the only situation where it seemed to make sense to switch librams for. Thanks for testing that.

kalbear · 11/16/07, 1:16 PM

I think for prot paladins engineering needs to be one of the choices. The tanking helm is just great for mitigation/avoidance and is fairly easy to acquire early on (basically requires one heroic). The goblin rocket launcher is one of the best pulling weapons in the game and is a great complement to AS, given that it only hits one mob no matter what and requires no mana. That it gives +45 stam is delicious gravy.

There are other nice things about engineering. Bombs are good for paladin leveling in aoe, you get handy things like underwater breathing skills and parachute cloaks and cloaking devices and remote controls. There's no reason to do blacksmithing for the weapons for prot, and the armor has one piece that is at all better than the alternative, and it's not really that much better.

Jewelcrafting isn't a bad choice either given the unique gems, but I don't think it gives the benefit that the helm and trinket do.

The other option is to just go mad money and get herbalism. If I were to do it again, I'd probably do herb/eng or herb/alch. Mining is nice but hardly necessary for engineering, and herbalism makes more money later on.

In other news, there have been some interesting parses recently from Hyjal (at maintankadin)where holy shield factors in only marginally in the overall threat output. I was kind of surprised, but HS was accounting for less than 10% of total damage. The person in question had about 60% avoidance and was averaging one HS charge per cast. Their threat was still good and this was not gimping for avoidance either. I'm starting to wonder whether improved HS is actually needed post-SSC given a high enough avoidance. I realize that you can't get rid of it early on, especially against certain fights - but later when your gear has high avoidance, it might not be necessary.

Krick · 11/16/07, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Questioner

Personally, I do not feel at ANY given point is it wise to drop anticipation. It is worth 3.2% crush avoidance and counts towards the anti-crit cap, something that can actually be tough with T5/ZA level gear when you are gearing for max stamina.

If you are speccing for an MT role, your soloing is crappy either way. Don't gimp your raid for what you do off-time. Its time for reckoning to be dropped.

I'm currently using...

Crocolisk Scale Vambraces of Defense
Binds when equipped
Wrist Plate
420 Armor
+30 Defense Rating
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 63

With a Major Defense enchant (+12) for a total of 42 defense rating from one item.

If you could your hands on these and use the same enchant, it's a total of 45 defense rating...

Illidari Vambraces of Defense
Binds when equipped
Wrist Plate
458 Armor
+33 Defense Rating
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 66

At level 70
42 Defense Rating = 17.5 Defense Skill
45 Defense Rating = 18.75 Defense Skill

Anticipation 5/5 = +20 Defense Skill

I think I might be able to drop Anticipation and keep Reckoning if I can find a way to deal with the lack of stamina on my bracers.

Eir · 11/16/07, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

In other news, there have been some interesting parses recently from Hyjal (at maintankadin)where holy shield factors in only marginally in the overall threat output. I was kind of surprised, but HS was accounting for less than 10% of total damage. The person in question had about 60% avoidance and was averaging one HS charge per cast. Their threat was still good and this was not gimping for avoidance either. I'm starting to wonder whether improved HS is actually needed post-SSC given a high enough avoidance. I realize that you can't get rid of it early on, especially against certain fights - but later when your gear has high avoidance, it might not be necessary.

Imp Holy Shield is definitely more beneficial to single target tanking than AoE. It gives us one of our main benefits over Warriors and Druids - ability to negate crushes on fast hitting bosses. It also provides a nice threat boost against single fast hitting mobs/bosses.

In an AoE situation, you don't care about crush avoidance and you block so often from a decent block rating that the short uptime on HS charges don't factor in much. On a typical Hyjal trash clear, HS accounts for a little over 10% of my damage while Consecrate counts for 50-60%.

I think it's a mistake to gear for avoidance in an AoE situation. When I first stepped foot in Hyjal, I ran with over 40% block rating at the cost of very little avoidance. It's down to around 28% since I no longer use a seperate AoE tanking set, but avoidance is the last thing on my mind when I'm tanking Hyjal trash. I would much much rather block a hit than avoid it. Staying alive is the least of your worries in Hyjal. Healing on the trash waves is so trivial if you're taking too much damage just tell one more healer to stop DPSing and throw some heals on you. The name of the game is threat and you will generate much more threat with a low avoidance/high block rating set.

kalbear · 11/16/07, 5:02 PM

Imp Holy Shield is definitely more beneficial to single target tanking than AoE. It gives us one of our main benefits over Warriors and Druids - ability to negate crushes on fast hitting bosses. It also provides a nice threat boost against single fast hitting mobs/bosses.

Right, but what are the probabilities? In 10 seconds time, how many bosses can hit 8 times against a paladin that has 50% avoidance?

It's really necessary against something like Prince, but Prince isn't the best example of a generic boss. If you're the one responsible for tanking the fast hitters then it seems like it's going to always be useful, but if you're not and you're tanking more in general, other talents may be better.

I don't know whether it's worth cutting the points in general. It seems like it is another OH SHIT button, where most of the time you won't eat through those charges but occasionally you will. I suspect downranking is more profitable, but it's an interesting thing to note that HS does not appear to be as much threat as other sources as you progress, and it is very rare to fight a boss that can hit enough times to eat more than 4 charges in 10 seconds time.

And this wasn't tanking Hyjal trash; this was tanking Rage. I was curious and checked out other parses, and against things like Hydross and Mag, HS damage was only 14-15% of total threat. Prince accounted for 35-40% of total threat, but that's not much of a surprise. Obviously this is only a few parses, but it's interesting to parse boss fights that aren't so paladin-friendly.