I believe casting any buff on anyone generates threat on the part of the buffer.

Consider the following example, which I was able to replicate dozens of times:

Pack of 3 mobs in Shadow Labs. Warrior tank shoots skull. All 3 mobs make a beeline for him. I notice the Salvation on the Rogue is about to run out so I rebuff him. Star and X marks start running towards me. This also extends to a Warlock placing a non-damage debuff (e.g. Curse of Weakness) getting aggro from a mob.

I imagine that resealing could be a good use of excess mana if you have the GCDs to spare.

At the very least, I do my prepull sealing after my Avenger's Shield has already landed, so that the threat applies.

Concerning the Seal of Vengance.

I'm using it on Bosses like Void Reaver. Sometimes great, sometimes it just breaks my aggro (if it falls of after like 45 Sek Aggro ist gone..).

One Idea I have, how about using 2 Weapons?

One usual tanking weapon (I have the S2 Arena Hammer, 1,6 speed, 265 Spelldamage with enchant) and as the second the lower city hammer (2,7 speed, 199 Spelldamage with enchant) as a emergency weapon if you have no proc and 5-7 sek left on your stacks.

So just make a weapon switch (global cd) and hope for the best. 90% SoV Proc Chance vs. 53% SoV Proc Chance should help.

Anybody ever tried this?

SoV was just to unreliable for my taste. I tried to make good use of it but didn't manage. I don't recommend to roll the dice any more than you have to. You have enough of these factors already (avoidance) and the small advantage in threat (IF the 5-stack stays on the target) is not worth introducing another one of these "luck" factors.

For newer tanks SoR should be the way to go.

That sounds like a lot of bother for minimal benefits.

SoV uses the +dmg of the first application, so you could start the stack with the S2 hammer and then switch to LC and build up the SoV more reliably. But while you gain reliability, you're also losing overall DPS with the lower +dmg on the LC weapon.


Pity that there are so few slow +dmg weapons for T4+. PPM seal mechanics need a review.

From the 2.3.2 druid patchnotes.

Anyone who is/was on the PTR notice if the SoV mechanics got changed in a similar manner? IE, will judging and resealing SoV cause the ticks to change to the new SoV damage? This has implications for people who like to, for example, pop +spell damage trinkets & Avenging Wrath in order to build up an SoV stack to maintain throughout the fight.

But here's the thing... It's not a small advantage in threat. If you can keep the stack active, it's actually a large advantage over SoR, especially for newer tanks that are packing under 200 spelldamage. The biggest difference between the two seals lies in the judgements, not the "on swing" effects, and the base value of JoV starts out nearly 3x what JoR does. At lower levels of spelldamage like this, you can actually afford to have your SoV stack drop off once a minute or so, and still have better long-term performance over SoR in certain cases. The best piece of advice I can give a starting tank for making use of SoV is to get all 3 points in Precision, and get Reckoning over 1h spec. Those two things will greatly increase the viability of SoV and reduce the chance of threat plateaus from losing the stack too often. As your gear gets better and you're able to add more spelldamage, melee hit, and spell hit while maintaining high levels of survivability, you can start to fine tune your spec and gear selection to fit the needs of the content you face.

SoV isn't "the" threat seal, and neither is SoR. They're both situational, and it's up to every tank to know when to use which one. I can only assume the same holds true for Horde and SoB.

So wouldn't judgement of blood be optimal for grabbing initial aggro / aggro resets? (and then reseal righteousness immidiately after)

Yes it would

Your ZA method is interesting and quite different from mine. My method tends to play to our strength. You'll notice a trend where all trash pulls are done AOE-Style.

On Eagle:
-Trash: I tank everything but the windwalker, using ranged taunt to pick up the warrior adds. The reason is we have melee nuke the windwalker and aoe everything else. If a windwalker is dead, we go pull the next group.
-boss: I tank the boss, and the Off-tank (Fury warrior, prot warrior, or Feral Druid) does more damage. The reason is purely for timers.

On Bear:
-Trash: Standard aoe tanking. Mounted bears are obviously tanked apart.
-Boss: I pick up the bear phase, usually. My effective health is often higher than anyone else's, and I find I generate more threat in this phase. What that boils down to, is when a warrior/druid taunts he has more threat for his phase (allowing more DPS).

On Lynx:
-Trash: AOE everything. Melee on Tamers.
-Boss: I tank Lynx phase. He is a dual-wielder so Holy Shield charges are used often for more threat. Sometimes, I also duo-tank the Spirit of the Lynx with the boss. If you Avenger's Shield at the transition, you can pick up the Spirit easily (with a judge for good measure). In Split-Phase I judge totems and we DPS down the troll form so Consecrate holds the Spirit easily.
--There is a 'diamond' pattern on the ground that is conveniently far enough for the rocket launcher or misdirect to hit without aggroing the boss. This makes stacking extremely easy without any risk of no-split due to lag or error.
--I highly recommend, if possible, the off-tank use two on-use evasion trinkets such as the Pocketwatch and SSC defense trinket. He can expect to, reliably, get hit for 8-9k and I've seen those trinkets make the boss laughable. I, personally, use DMC:V and the Goblin Rocket Launcher (without a Hunter) or Gnome-Regan Auto-Blocker for him. The Saber Lash is, ironically, not the deadliest part of the fight so much as surviving long enough for a big heal to land on you.

On Dragonhawk:
-Trash: AOE tank everything. Nuke order Scout > Flame Caster > guardians or Tamer > Hawks. Druid roots is very helpful as is Rocket Launcher stun.
--If you have a paladin healer or shamans, I advise Fire resistance totem/aura in the group you are NOT in, since you can cover this. The reasoning is, one Flame Caster can be stun locked. Two... you have to take a few hits regardless.
-Boss:
With a protection/feral Off-Tank: He tanks Boss, AOE sides. If the group doesn't have much true AOE (mage/warlock) then I use a 4/4/35 method where you do 4 spawns, 4 spawns, then spawn everything on the other side.
With a fury off-tank: Allow 3 spawns on each sides, 3 times, and have all melee handle them. Healers run through my consecrate and I cleanse myself. Yes, it's entirely possible to tank the boss and some adds before Enrage.

On Hexx Lord:
Really depends on the party. I tank the Hexx Lord himself, and the group burns through the adds. He does not 'empower' before 80% HP, so there's really no reason to rush the fight and die to bad CC timing. If you have a good healing mace/shield, it would be a lot more effective to probably just tank the adds then off-heal. Remember, you only have to 'tank' 1-2 mobs, usually. The snake and Demon are pretty untankable. Everything can be stunned.
--It's advised to keep Aimed Shot or Mortal Strike up as much as possible for the Paladin phase if you lack non-melee counterspells. He will generally heal after a consecrate, which is deadly to any melee, and could spell a wipe.

On Zul'jin:
We make excellent tanks for Zul'jin.
Phase 1: a joke.
Phase 2: We have a high effective HP, and we can self-cleanse paralysis. I use Devotion Aura here, too.
Phase 3: Equip-macro to Healing shield/mace, find somewhere nice and off-heal. Anything helps.
Phase 4: Let a paladin healer, if possible, take the first BoP for more threat time. Judge wisdom and misdirect if possible.
Phase 5: Swap to fire resist aura, chug a Magic Resistance Potion, pay your party doesn't stand in Fire Pillars.

I dont get this. He does like 1.2 k damage each spell you cast, which usually makes only casting high ranked Holy Light a 'netto gain' in hp.
I would think is in no way sustainable in your prot gear and you would be better off just trying to avoid as much damage as possible.

Without such a swap, in my pure tanking gear, I heal for 2500-3500. I take 1250 (or less on partial) and I have the highest HP in the raid. Why on earth would you NOT heal in this phase when you can get a positive return, and a lot of your mana will be returned from Tornado/cast damage? Even if the net gain was 0, you're transfering damage from someone with 8000-11000 HP to you, with 20,000 HP and is going to get focus-healed by your healers in the transition, anyway.

I suppose I should note we use nature resistance totem or hunter nature resistance for the healing group since the cast damage can be mitigated.

I disagree.

I don't see any point in having "extra" healing beyond what's required, and for the most part, the off-tank can be in a Windfury group, and make a non trivial contribution to the damage done.

More dps gets the fight over sooner, which if your going for ZA timed event loot is a valuable contribution. What's more, I spec Imp. SotC, and if I'm not tanking the raid misses out on the extra crit for some, if not all, of the encounter.

On the other hand, when I trash-tank the waves in Hyjal, on 3 of the 4 bosses I do swap to healing gear after the trash waves have been dealt with.

If the other tank is a prot warrior, well then thats really just too much prot. The second tank imo should be a feral druid or a hybrid warrior. If it did come down to a prot war vs prot pally than it really depends on the fight. I really don't think it matters on eagle or Hex Lord (Lynx does need 2 tanks), but I think the prot warrior is the better choice for Zul'jin, gear being equal and all. Extra healing in p3 and p4 to me is a good thing, better than having a gimped prot dps in there.

It really comes down to where your group is at in terms of progression through the zone. If you're struggling to get bosses down, then the added healing can be extremely helpful, functioning as a cushion until everyone is comfortable with the encounters. On the other hand, when you're going for successive timers you need every drop of damage you can get.

Regarding prot warrior plus prot pally, I've seen some prot warriors crank out some disgustingly high DPS given their spec. There's nothing wrong with letting them chop away on a given fight if healing is under control.

Prot warriors can dps quite well after the recent changes to Devastate. Many don't bother to collect dps gear, but those that do can acquit themselves quite well if they know what they're doing. Whether it's better to have the prot warrior doing dps or the prot paladin healing depends on a lot of factors; you really can't make a blanket statement one way or the other.

Well, this would go under the "Onxyia Deep Breath more", but some Protection Paladin are still experiencing inconsistent behavior with Improved Righteous Fury and aggro. It'll be fine some of the time, but not all of the time. We have an experienced Prot Paladin loosing the Al'ar bird add during phase 1 after a Avenger's Shield->Consecration->JoR->Holy Shield. Just to be sure, he check to make sure he doesn't have salvation, and cast Righteous Fury with Full Mana.

If one thing I"m learning about posting here is that everyone needs to completely clarify every comment otherwise people look for a reason to disagree.

My original ZA tanking post was meant for people newly entering ZA without Tier 5 gear or higher. If you're full clearing ZA then you don't need anyone's advice on how to tank it. You obviously have it handled. However If you're just entering the zone for the first time and wondering how you should start attempting these fights, YOU WILL NOT BE DOING TIMED EVENT and thusly the added healing will be far more beneficial to defeating a boss then more DPS.

You can disagree with me all you want if you have SSC and TK and above on full clear, because my post isn't meant for you.

But telling people newly entering ZA to rely on DPS instead of Healing when given a "what should the off-tank do". You're crazy if you think DPS is more important.

If I'm allowed to start the fight as the MT, I tend to do just fine holding aggro. My problem is that increasingly as we move into larger instances the DPSers are blasting mobs while they are enroute to me and getting them back is very hard. I use macros to drop BoP for casters and Righteous Defense but even when RD hits, many times the mob turns right back to the DPSer.

Any suggestions? Is this a SD issue or something I'm not doing properly??

Thanks

The World of Warcraft Armory

Is that Sun Eater really your main tanking weapon or did you just happen to log out with it?

It was for a while (when I was def starved) but in this case I just happened to log out with it. Not sure if it updated yet but I also have the hammer from kara's prince with +40 spell on it and the sword from keepers of time, as well as the crystalforged sword. I've been experimenting a little and wanted to see if the sun eater's higher white dmg would help with aggro (I had read it wouldn't but it *seemed* like I held aggro better when I used it).

You did put +40 Spelldamage on the Karazhan Prince Healing Hammer??

Arakai - first of all, a few points to consider.

(1) If dps starts too soon that's their own fault, not yours.

(2) If a dps pulls agro and gets a BoP the BoP *temporarily* reduces their threat to zero, and you'll not be able to gain their threat lead from your taunt. BoP to save them *only* if your taunt is resisted or the mob is immune, because once BoP expires their threat on the mob will be restored/reactivated. Casters that get a BoP or taunt need to learn to stop dps while you regain a safe threat lead.

That said, you're armoury shows some pretty questionable gear/gem/enchant choices; your tanking weapon is, shall we say, sub optimal. I would suggest you reenchant your Light's Justice for healing and consign it to your healing set, and go back to either the KoT rep sword, or your Crystalforged Sword until you can either finish the grind to exulted with Lower City, and get their spell damage mace, or arena/honour grind for the Gladiator mace.