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Old 11/23/07, 10:11 PM   #361
jasura
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by Thelyna View Post
Just because I feel like doing some math:
Tank doing 1300 TPS.
Rogue gets 0.7*0.71 = 0.497 threat modifier (0.497 threat per damage). 1300 / 0.497 = 2615 DPS
Enh shaman: 0.7*0.7 = 0.49. 1300/0.49 = 2653 DPS

Even, in the worst case, a non-subtlety moonkin can bust out 1300 / 0.7 = 1857 DPS (and that's not even counting the 30% ranged buffer - if you count that it'd be 2.6k DPS again).

Obviously, here, your sustained TPS is overkill - yes, there's a difference between the DPS someone does when they're wary of the tank's TPS and the DPS they do when they know the tank has it solidly. However, doing twice as much threat as you need to, especially when you're throwing away obvious survivability boosts to do so, strikes me as a bad trade.

Tank role #1: Hold aggro.
Tank role #2: Stay alive.

These calculations are not factoring in Misdirects (More aggro), DPS giving you a few seconds to build aggro etc. It also doesn't factor in aggro drops (Fade, Feint, Feign Death, Invisibility, SoulShatter, Die+Ankh, etc.). When you factor these in, the number that dpsers have to do to pass you up goes way higher than 1300 TPS. Especially if you are your guild's MT godsmacked, you are generating PLENTY enough aggro if you can maintain 1000 TPS. I could maybe see if your guild utilized you for high-threat fights like Void Reaver or Leotheras. It's a completely different story if you're tanking Morogrim who hits like a freaking truck and DPS is off killing murlocs half of the time anyways ;-).

Like I said earlier, recruit a ret pally if your guild is serious about you MTing and invest max talent points into stam/mitigation.

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Old 11/24/07, 12:23 AM   #362
Thelyna
I park my feet under my desk.
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Chain MD from a hunter works out to 25 TPS added.

(Fade is also completely useless as a threat reducer for a shadow priest, just FYI.)

I'd be hard-pressed to believe 1300 sustained TPS even with a 0/40/21 build ... Imp. Seal of the Crusader, Conviction and Sanc Aura are the only direct threat benefits you gain. I'm not even sure which threat abilities we have work off melee crit rate (white damage crit is pretty inconsequan, ISotC can easily be gotten once you get some more gear and can drop a few points out of parry (from a conventional 49/12 build) and Sanc Aura is only a 10% scaling on our holy damage. In short, the ret threat buffs you have mean you'd be sustaining 1100 TPS (or telling fibs) or thereabouts without them. That's still way overkill.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger View Post
The other day I accidentally a fire ball 10 feet high.

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Old 11/26/07, 11:53 PM   #363
Adurith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Lightning's Blade
Hey guys, I'm new here and I must say that I'm loving what I'm seeing. I've finally found an output for knowledgeable end game prot pallies that I can relate to.

I was wondering, for those of you who are more savvy with Excel than I could ever be, if there was a way to setup a gear spreadsheet much like our Ret brothers did over there in their post. Ideally, my concept is to have a calculator that from the end game gear, finds what the best gear configuration is to optimize stamina, armor and block value but also obviously having to meet the 104 mark. Also, to, maybe setup a coefficient for spell damage or even a spell damage cap if there were a value. I know in my experience I rarely have trouble of raiders pulling agro off of me and i'm running about 500 SD .

Let me know what you guys think, i.e. if it's feasible. Hell, I'm willing to learn from one of you how to do it myself if anyone had the time to. I'd like to make one up for healing just shits and giggles if I ever had the time. But, once again, great hub here and tank on!

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Old 11/27/07, 7:22 AM   #364
Helot
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Draenor
Not sure if it's been mentioned or not, but the [Illidari Runeshield] has been reported as dropping from BT Trash.

You may want to update the first post, w/ this new information.

For reference, first heard of it on wowhead, at this link: Illidari Runeshield - Items - World of Warcraft

Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

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Old 11/29/07, 8:53 AM   #365
enemy5
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Moon Guard
The [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] with it's high stamina and holy damage proc seems like it was made for a Protection Paladin, but in practice would the proc add to threat in a noticeable way, or would it fall into the same trap as Reckoning where it won't proc enough to really matter unless you're in an AOE tanking situation?

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Old 11/29/07, 10:02 AM   #366
Fiola
Great Tiger
 
Human Paladin
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by enemy5 View Post
The [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] with it's high stamina and holy damage proc seems like it was made for a Protection Paladin, but in practice would the proc add to threat in a noticeable way, or would it fall into the same trap as Reckoning where it won't proc enough to really matter unless you're in an AOE tanking situation?
It's a 10% chance for 95~115 damage, or 105 damage.


Over time, that averages out to 10.5 damage per hit. With iRF, that's around 20~ threat each time you're hit.


Noticeable? I doubt it. (Making up numbers, I think you'd need a 10~20% increase/decrease to really notice the benefit of a single item; I'm sure you dealing much more than 20 threat on average each time you're hit )


Useful? Really depends on what you're doing, I think.

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Old 11/29/07, 12:47 PM   #367
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by enemy5 View Post
The [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] with it's high stamina and holy damage proc seems like it was made for a Protection Paladin, but in practice would the proc add to threat in a noticeable way, or would it fall into the same trap as Reckoning where it won't proc enough to really matter unless you're in an AOE tanking situation?
People tend to seriously overestimate the effect of gearing up on "when-hit" procs. A typical paladin entering Kara might have ~40% full avoidance; a typical T6 paladin will probably have around 50%. That's a ~16% drop in the number of hits you take; is that really going to make such a huge difference?

Anyway, as Fiola said, it's about 10 damage per hit on average, so look at it as a 40% buff to Ret aura that's active even when you're not using Ret aura. It also works on casters, which can be handy when it procs on a caster mob in someplace like Shattered Halls.

And on top of that, it's 51 stamina, so what's not to like?

Last edited by Cathela : 11/29/07 at 2:59 PM.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 11/29/07, 3:02 PM   #368
Mokoto
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Cathela View Post
And on top of that, it's 51 stamina, so what's not to like?
I wear mine for the +51 stamina, the proc is just icing on the cake.


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Old 11/29/07, 5:14 PM   #369
spitfireNZ
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Boulderfist
Thanks for starting this thread Chicken, as a raiding Pally tank i have learned a lot.

Q. At the moment i tank with minimal Spell damage, SoB (I'm horde) and a kings defender with mongoose. Next patch ill be ditching reckoning for Combat Expertise which means that i also loose a tone of threat... ( 29% of all my damage comes from auto attacking + Reckoning Procs).

To solve this problem I'm going to switch to a spell damage weapon (Merc Glad or the one from ZA) and SoR, but i have a dilemma... I cant decide between 40 Spell Damage or Mongoose. I know 9/10 paladins use a spell damage weapon with 40 spell damage but, is it really that much better? Do i loose too much threat?

In my eyes Mongoose = 5.2% dodge (kings) and a very minor threat boost and seems to proc constantly with my current (reckoning) build. I also believe in putting mitigation and avoidance before threat generation.

What do you think? Merc Gladiator MH with 40 Spell Damage or Goose?

And by the way, if you haven't guessed already, I'm new to the forums so sorry if this has been answered before :P

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Old 11/29/07, 5:32 PM   #370
Wolftusk
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Eitrigg
Originally Posted by spitfireNZ View Post
Thanks for starting this thread Chicken, as a raiding Pally tank i have learned a lot.

Q. At the moment i tank with minimal Spell damage, SoB (I'm horde) and a kings defender with mongoose. Next patch ill be ditching reckoning for Combat Expertise which means that i also loose a tone of threat... ( 29% of all my damage comes from auto attacking + Reckoning Procs).

To solve this problem I'm going to switch to a spell damage weapon (Merc Glad or the one from ZA) and SoR, but i have a dilemma... I cant decide between 40 Spell Damage or Mongoose. I know 9/10 paladins use a spell damage weapon with 40 spell damage but, is it really that much better? Do i loose too much threat?

In my eyes Mongoose = 5.2% dodge (kings) and a very minor threat boost and seems to proc constantly with my current (reckoning) build. I also believe in putting mitigation and avoidance before threat generation.

What do you think? Merc Gladiator MH with 40 Spell Damage or Goose?

And by the way, if you haven't guessed already, I'm new to the forums so sorry if this has been answered before :P
Point for Point you will get more threat out of each point of spell damage than just about anything else. The only thing that mongoose will do is increase your melee crit rate which is very insignificant with a spell damage weapon (since it has low base damage anyway).

If the kids were united, they would never be divided.
Blood Elf Protection Paladin.

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Old 11/29/07, 5:55 PM   #371
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by spitfireNZ View Post
Thanks for starting this thread Chicken, as a raiding Pally tank i have learned a lot.

Q. At the moment i tank with minimal Spell damage, SoB (I'm horde) and a kings defender with mongoose. Next patch ill be ditching reckoning for Combat Expertise which means that i also loose a tone of threat... ( 29% of all my damage comes from auto attacking + Reckoning Procs).

To solve this problem I'm going to switch to a spell damage weapon (Merc Glad or the one from ZA) and SoR, but i have a dilemma... I cant decide between 40 Spell Damage or Mongoose. I know 9/10 paladins use a spell damage weapon with 40 spell damage but, is it really that much better? Do i loose too much threat?

In my eyes Mongoose = 5.2% dodge (kings) and a very minor threat boost and seems to proc constantly with my current (reckoning) build. I also believe in putting mitigation and avoidance before threat generation.

What do you think? Merc Gladiator MH with 40 Spell Damage or Goose?

And by the way, if you haven't guessed already, I'm new to the forums so sorry if this has been answered before :P
Well you only need enough threat to get to where your dps can go full-out on your tank target. Past that, it's nearly pointless. So if you're at that stage, all the time, without the additional 40 spell damage, then don't worry about it, and go mongoose. If you're not, I'd say that holding threat on your target is more important than an inconsistent proc for avoidance's sake. That's really dependent on your dps, your threat, and your responsibilities though.

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Old 11/29/07, 6:21 PM   #372
Mokoto
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
I would go for the +40 spell damage, you can make up the avoidance in other pieces.


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Old 11/30/07, 1:18 AM   #373
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by spitfireNZ View Post
What do you think? Merc Gladiator MH with 40 Spell Damage or Goose?
I'm biased against chance-on-hit effects for tanking, especially for a class/spec that doesn't have instant weapon attacks to boost the proc rate.

I go for spelldamage on every tanking weapon. You may not need it right away, but chances are pretty good you will before you get a weapon upgrade. It's especially nice for resist fights where you have to sacrifice some of your other spelldamage gear. When I AoE tank Hydross adds, my weapon is basically the only spelldamage I've got.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 11/30/07, 9:06 AM   #374
Wolftusk
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Eitrigg
I am not sure if anyone else would find this useful, but i think it would be great if there was a "Worthwhile Upgrades" section covering some of the different instances, faction and badge rewards.

It was not until yesterday that I realized that Zul'Jin drops a great chestpiece.

If the kids were united, they would never be divided.
Blood Elf Protection Paladin.

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Old 11/30/07, 1:22 PM   #375
g0dsmacked
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Thelyna View Post
Chain MD from a hunter works out to 25 TPS added.

(Fade is also completely useless as a threat reducer for a shadow priest, just FYI.)

I'd be hard-pressed to believe 1300 sustained TPS even with a 0/40/21 build ... Imp. Seal of the Crusader, Conviction and Sanc Aura are the only direct threat benefits you gain. I'm not even sure which threat abilities we have work off melee crit rate (white damage crit is pretty inconsequan, ISotC can easily be gotten once you get some more gear and can drop a few points out of parry (from a conventional 49/12 build) and Sanc Aura is only a 10% scaling on our holy damage. In short, the ret threat buffs you have mean you'd be sustaining 1100 TPS (or telling fibs) or thereabouts without them. That's still way overkill.
Just so you know for fun i have been seeing what i can get my peak TPS on a single target can get up to. I broke 2100( about a minute into the fight) tps on a lurker trash sat night. I will try to get a screenie next time.


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