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11/30/07, 1:52 PM
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#376
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Piston Honda
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On a typical Hyjal trash clear, the DMF card proc makes up about 1% of my total damage and threat. So the Stamina is great when you're single target tanking and the proc is good for AoE tanking. No complaints from me!
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11/30/07, 4:31 PM
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#377
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Piston Honda
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I keep seeing people posting in here as if they only have 1 set of gear for pally tanking. More than any other tank, we need a wide selection of gear swaps to fully realize our tanking role in instances. As my guild's only pally tank for Hyjal and Black Temple, I shift gear sets slightly nearly every trash pull, and drastically EVER boss fight. Each shift is to maximize my effectiveness as 1/25th of the raid for the fight at hand, which is the foundation of every single player in that raid. To that end, as always, gear selection should be based on more than just 1 fight type. I probably carry way more than I should in gear, but I believe that no protection pally should limit themselves to 1 set, or even 2 sets. I carry gear swaps to handle trash avoidance, trash AoE, boss avoidance, boss off-healing, boss 'dps' (when I am not needed as a tank or a healer), plus whatever resist sets I need for that nights raiding.
Every protection pally should choose items based on which gear set that item will go with, and then use that set for the fight at hand.
Originally Posted by Cathela
People tend to seriously overestimate the effect of gearing up on "when-hit" procs. A typical paladin entering Kara might have ~40% full avoidance; a typical T6 paladin will probably have around 50%. That's a ~16% drop in the number of hits you take; is that really going to make such a huge difference?
Anyway, as Fiola said, it's about 10 damage per hit on average, so look at it as a 40% buff to Ret aura that's active even when you're not using Ret aura. It also works on casters, which can be handy when it procs on a caster mob in someplace like Shattered Halls.
And on top of that, it's 51 stamina, so what's not to like?
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The above post is has it right with this card, and the Vengance card is a permanent part of my AoE trashing tanking set, but is not present in my boss tanking set, my healing set, or my resist sets. It creates the most noticable difference in Hyjal, in waves with Necromancers or Banshees, in that I can hold aggro from Banshees or Necromancers for well over half the duration of the wave, even though they are at range and in the AoE pit where I am. I can work the camera, and see the fairly frequent popping of the trinket on these ranged attackers, enough that by the time melee or single target casters get to them, I still hold aggro fairly well until 30% or so. Yes, I can build threat faster on targets through other spells or attacks, but if my attention is being held by 50-60% of the trash wave that is directly on me, any threat I can build at all on the ranged to keep them off the healers is critical.
No, I do not use this trinket on boss fights, since those go to much more avoidance, reducing the frequency of procing, and it would only proc on a target I am already generating massive threat against, and isn't present in any fight where I am not expected to be the focus of damage.
Note: I have been noticing a few bugs with this, in that it procs off of ANYTHING, and sometimes the logic of how it reflects the damage is less than ideal. The most glaring example of this was in heroic Bot a few days ago. One of pulls just before the 3rd boss, I got that Curse of Doom like effect (not the name of the effect, can't recall it at the moment). We cleared the pull and were drinking when the debuff ended, dealt me shadow damage, and it apparently string matched to find out who dealt me damage. The trinket proc'ed on the left channeler in front of the boss, who we hadn't pulled yet. This pulled the group obviously, which was quite surprising to my party members who hadn't see the vengance proc damage floating above his head.
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11/30/07, 6:20 PM
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#378
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Yenadar
I keep seeing people posting in here as if they only have 1 set of gear for pally tanking. More than any other tank, we need a wide selection of gear swaps to fully realize our tanking role in instances. As my guild's only pally tank for Hyjal and Black Temple, I shift gear sets slightly nearly every trash pull, and drastically EVER boss fight. Each shift is to maximize my effectiveness as 1/25th of the raid for the fight at hand, which is the foundation of every single player in that raid. To that end, as always, gear selection should be based on more than just 1 fight type. I probably carry way more than I should in gear, but I believe that no protection pally should limit themselves to 1 set, or even 2 sets. I carry gear swaps to handle trash avoidance, trash AoE, boss avoidance, boss off-healing, boss 'dps' (when I am not needed as a tank or a healer), plus whatever resist sets I need for that nights raiding.
Every protection pally should choose items based on which gear set that item will go with, and then use that set for the fight at hand.
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Agreed full-heartedly, but I found the multiple tanking sets difficult to actually obtain till well through SSC/TK. I haven't found the need to have quite as many sets as you do, I tend to have a high-threat set, a high-mitigation/avoidance set, and my healing and "dps" sets. Sometimes I'll switch my weapon out to a [Mallet of the Tides] if the threat requirement is super low.
Originally Posted by Yenadar
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No, I do not use this trinket on boss fights, since those go to much more avoidance, reducing the frequency of procing, and it would only proc on a target I am already generating massive threat against, and isn't present in any fight where I am not expected to be the focus of damage.
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What do you use on boss fights instead? I really find the proc to be a fantastic little bonus on top of a really nice stamina piece personally. I haven't really found a better pair of trinkets than the [Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet] and [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance], especially considering how easy it is to get them ( the [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] is basically a crafted item, and [Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet] drops off SSC trash).
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11/30/07, 6:36 PM
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#379
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Bald Bull
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The [Goblin Rocket Launcher] is an excellent trinket too - free damage, high stamina, and you can get it fairly early. It's probably not as useful generically as the Spyglass but you get it a lot earlier and is very useful for single pulls.
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11/30/07, 10:20 PM
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#380
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King Hippo
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Originally Posted by Denogran
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I'm guessing he uses an oh sh*t trinket like the one from Moroes or Hydross for extra avoidance on bosses at dicey moments? Shouldn't be needed with quality healers though, at least one of your trinkets would be 51stm at all times surely?
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The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
www.retpaladin.com
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12/01/07, 8:02 AM
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#381
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by g0dsmacked
Just so you know for fun i have been seeing what i can get my peak TPS on a single target can get up to. I broke 2100( about a minute into the fight) tps on a lurker trash sat night. I will try to get a screenie next time.
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Is this sustained or a spike, because I can break out high numbers but over the course of the fight I usually settle into about 500-700 TPS.
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12/01/07, 10:07 AM
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#382
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Glass Joe
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i can sustain 1300 in full raid buffs. 2100 was a spike. but it was at about 1 minutes into the fight, not just opening attacks.
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12/03/07, 11:41 AM
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#383
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Kazzak (EU)
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How important is AD actually? It's not many times I get knocked down below 35% (that should be somwhere around 6500 when fully buffed for me) for it to kick in (if I go that low on hp, my hp falls to about 3-4k usually, at which point AD wont save me either).
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12/03/07, 1:37 PM
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#384
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Piston Honda
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So Eyonix is leveling a Prot Paladin. Part of me thinks this is not good for raiding Prot Paladins because he's going to level to 70, do well in 5-mans, and then figure we might even be overpowered as tanks. 
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12/03/07, 3:53 PM
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#385
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Yet again, dead again.
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Originally Posted by Oxudes
How important is AD actually? It's not many times I get knocked down below 35% (that should be somwhere around 6500 when fully buffed for me) for it to kick in (if I go that low on hp, my hp falls to about 3-4k usually, at which point AD wont save me either).
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I would say very important. Even if you're only going into AD range at 3-4k hp:
a) You can (and likely will) still take some heals before your next hit. A flash of light that puts you up to 5k hit points for instance before the next hit.
b) Not all bosses hit for upwards of the 4200-5700 damage to kill you when you fall to ~3-4k
(Najentus average is ~3900, EoS hits very weak, Akama adds (if they ever get re-enabled) hit weak, Infernals on Anatheron hit less than that. Doomguards on Azgalor deal less than that. Murlocs on Tidewalker hit weakly. Sharkiss + Pet each hit less than that. Hydross adds hit less than that. Lurker adds hit less than that. Leotheras hits for less than that. Vashj hits for less than that, as do her adds. Phoenixes on Al'ar. Trash in Hyjal waves. Etc.)
c) Most bosses that do hit that hard have a somewhat slow attack speed. This means unless your healers are sleeping on the job, you'll get at least a couple of small heals between hits. Also consider, at your gear level I place you in early t5 content. Most bosses already aren't hitting hard enough to blow through your AD. At 18750 HP, AD would kick in at ~6500 hit points. Assume you're taking a boss that hits for ~6500.
Without AD you would have to be at 35% health to survive the hit. With AD you could surive it as long as you have 4550 HP, meaning you could survive that hit anywhere from 24.2% upwards. Even some hits that could potentially leapfrog AD can turn into saves. For instance, assume a 7000 point hit. 4900-6500 would be survived. 6500-7000 would be death. 7000+ would be a survive. 26-35% and 37.3% upwards would be survivable.
You can't often take 2 back to back hits without heals on a boss that hits for upwards of 7000 damage anyways. If a boss is hitting that hard, you're going to be spammed. If you manage to actually get down to 3-4k (that would be approximately 2 hits without heals) and then take another hit without getting a heal, you've got serious problems that aren't related to your talent tree.
d) Many bosses have periodic and secondary abilities that bring you low that AD can help with. (Whirlwind on Leo, Inner Demon, Bat dung on Vashj, pouding on VR, flame patch on al'ar. Phoenix dot on Kael'thas. Infernal DoT on Anatheron. Doomfire DoT on Archimonde. Environmental DoTs on Supremus. EoA dot.) Many of these things are things you can avoid, (Like doomfire, flame patch or volcano on supremus) Most shouldn't kill you outright (Whirlwind, Flame Patch etc) But occasionally an unfortunate series of events puts you at low health when you get hit with one of these things. Or a volcano spawns directly under you, or something like that. AD will give you a bit of slack to turn what might have been a death into a near miss.
AD is by far one of the few talents in the prot tree I could not get by without.
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12/03/07, 7:32 PM
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#386
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Bald Bull
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There is a great addon that tracks ardent defender saves and damage prevented. It's something of an eye-opener. At least for me I had no real inkling of how much damage prevented and how many times it saved me from dying when I would have otherwise. It's a huge buff for paladins, and only improves as you have more HP. Good scaling talents that save you from wiping! Good times.
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12/03/07, 7:41 PM
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#387
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by kalbear
There is a great addon that tracks ardent defender saves and damage prevented. It's something of an eye-opener. At least for me I had no real inkling of how much damage prevented and how many times it saved me from dying when I would have otherwise. It's a huge buff for paladins, and only improves as you have more HP. Good scaling talents that save you from wiping! Good times.
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Do you have a link or name of said add-on? I'd love to track that kinda stuff.
As for AD, well personally I think it's yet another, albeit not as apparent, stamina boost. And I'll take as many of those as I can. I also find that it has great utility outside raiding as well, especially when grinding a lot of mobs, and in 5-mans where the healing might be less consistent.
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12/03/07, 7:55 PM
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#388
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Bald Bull
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Sorry; here is the link to the FuBar version. I like that one the best. There exists a non-FuBar version which is simple but not all that great by comparison.
Like I said, it's kinda shocking how much it saves me. Really, it only has to save me one time in an instance to be worthwhile.
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12/03/07, 9:39 PM
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#389
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Glass Joe
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Is there any hard and fast rule about how much block equals a certain amount of armor in relation to effective health? Like 200 armor equals 40 block value, or something like that. I'm a bit unsure which rings i should be using. I have the top tier Kara ring, the 2nd tier eternity ring, and the 7th ring of tirisfalen.
I am using the eternity and the 7th, but I'm wondering if the 391 armor on the great protector ring is worth more than the 24 block value and 24 block rating on the 7th. Thoughts? If not not on the ring choice, then the general question of armor vs. block value for effective health.
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12/03/07, 9:48 PM
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#390
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Von Kaiser
Human Paladin
Ghostlands (EU)
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As the author of the non-Fubar version, I was really shocked by how much AD actually kicks in. On "plain sailing" trash mobs and bosses, it's never active (as you'd expect), but with dicier pulls and progression bosses when the healing pattern isn't quite down, it generally adds up to about 2-3% mitigation and relatively often totally averts death 2 or 3 times a try.
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