Protection and you! - Page 27

Sharlos · 12/03/07, 10:53 PM

Ardent Defender has saved my life many times, but considering the many talent points in the tree, I don't think it would be unreasonable to shrink it to three talent points.

Denogran · 12/04/07, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by jsilverdia

Is there any hard and fast rule about how much block equals a certain amount of armor in relation to effective health? Like 200 armor equals 40 block value, or something like that. I'm a bit unsure which rings i should be using. I have the top tier Kara ring, the 2nd tier eternity ring, and the 7th ring of tirisfalen.

I am using the eternity and the 7th, but I'm wondering if the 391 armor on the great protector ring is worth more than the 24 block value and 24 block rating on the 7th. Thoughts? If not not on the ring choice, then the general question of armor vs. block value for effective health.

Check out the protection warrior thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/

It's got a really good section on rings that's pretty much entirely applicable to us. Actually a ton of good info in that thread if you keep the differences between us and warriors in the back of your mind whilst reading it.

Gunn · 12/04/07, 10:14 AM

*please delete*

Mneme · 12/04/07, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

As for talent spec: I don't see why any pally would want to spec into Spell Warding. It's a decent damage reduction for spell damage but how often do we find ourselves tanking mobs that do a LOT of spelldamage? That is almost always going to be the domain of prot warriors and is more or less the only area where they still have an appreciable advantage over pally tanks.

Just wondering, does Spell Warding affect elemental melee damage? i.e. Hydross, Flames of Azzinoth.

jasura · 12/04/07, 1:37 PM

AD has saved my life so many times it's not even funny. Fully buffed with Moroes' trinket on instead of my other stam trinket, I have almost 21k HP. (20.5k to be exact but that was before I got Kazzak's gloves that give me another 10 stam.).

Assuming 21k HP buffed, AD kicks in at 7,350 HP for me. 30% of that is 2205 HP. Assuming that AD doesn't get leapfrogged, that means that you would effectively have 9,555 HP from 35 to 0%. Sure it can be leapfrogged but how often do pallies tank something that hits for that much? Now compare to us tanking something like Murlocs or the hunter add on karathress and you can see that this is a great ability!

I mean who doesn't want a free 2k or so HP?

jasura · 12/04/07, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mneme

Just wondering, does Spell Warding affect elemental melee damage? i.e. Hydross, Flames of Azzinoth.

I think it does. Anybody know for sure?

Prinsesa · 12/04/07, 10:56 PM

I'm 40~ points shy of hitting 360 enchanting, and I'm pretty sure I can make it if I can convince myself to blow the gold on mats, so I'd like to ask my fellow Enchanter Paladins: What do you put on your rings?

My first instinct was spellpower, but I'm always open to other suggestions.

Cathela · 12/05/07, 1:25 AM

After tanking Naj'entus tonight I don't think I'll ever give up AD. The 8500 frost damage you take when his shield is pierced sent me into AD territory almost every time, and I would stay there for a few seconds til the healers could catch up.

Originally Posted by jasura

I think it does. Anybody know for sure?

You could test this by having a Ret paladin with 350 unarmed skill attack you with SoC up with no weapon equipped. Compare the SoC proc damage to the damage range on his character sheet.

Wolftusk · 12/05/07, 9:47 AM

Quick question about Tidewalker...

The guild has me positioned for the fight near the water graves but far away enough from tidewalker that i do not get graved myself. The rest of the casters are further up the ramp between myself and tidewalker. I had a bit of a hard time grabbing agro from the murlocs from just spamming holy light (it did not help that i ususally could only get 2-3 heals off).

I was just wondering if it would be a reasonable strategy to move up the ramp immediately after watery grave is cast so that i can grab the murlocs with consecration/holy light and then move back down to my original spot by the graves so when the cooldown of the watery graves is up i can be far away from it enough that i do not get hit by it.

Denogran · 12/05/07, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

Quick question about Tidewalker...

The guild has me positioned for the fight near the water graves but far away enough from tidewalker that i do not get graved myself. The rest of the casters are further up the ramp between myself and tidewalker. I had a bit of a hard time grabbing agro from the murlocs from just spamming holy light (it did not help that i ususally could only get 2-3 heals off).

I was just wondering if it would be a reasonable strategy to move up the ramp immediately after watery grave is cast so that i can grab the murlocs with consecration/holy light and then move back down to my original spot by the graves so when the cooldown of the watery graves is up i can be far away from it enough that i do not get hit by it.

You're still leaving yourself open for a grave then, and a potential wipe. Personally, I always tank the murlocs on his ass, and just deal with the graves (Divine Shield cancel macro, warrior and druid AoE taunts). But if you're going to go the super-safe route, I'd suggest having a holy pally run down and spam holy lights on some convenient warlocks to get them to you, as opposed to running all over the place. Also, who are they aggroing on to? Druids and shammies really need to lay off of healing until you get the murlocs, and priests need to be on the ball with their fades.

But really, it sounds like more of an issue with your healers than with you. 2-3 holy lights with Righteous Fury up should be enough to snag all the murlocs to you, if the other healers are only healing the MT as much as they need to (and splitting the responsibility).

One last thing that could help is the switch weapon macro listed in the first post. Basically, switch to your healing weapon and shield before the murlocs pop, and it should significantly improve the amount you're healing for, and thus your threat. Just remember to switch back before the murlocs get to you

.

jasura · 12/05/07, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

You're still leaving yourself open for a grave then, and a potential wipe. Personally, I always tank the murlocs on his ass, and just deal with the graves (Divine Shield cancel macro, warrior and druid AoE taunts). But if you're going to go the super-safe route, I'd suggest having a holy pally run down and spam holy lights on some convenient warlocks to get them to you, as opposed to running all over the place. Also, who are they aggroing on to? Druids and shammies really need to lay off of healing until you get the murlocs, and priests need to be on the ball with their fades.

But really, it sounds like more of an issue with your healers than with you. 2-3 holy lights with Righteous Fury up should be enough to snag all the murlocs to you, if the other healers are only healing the MT as much as they need to (and splitting the responsibility).

One last thing that could help is the switch weapon macro listed in the first post. Basically, switch to your healing weapon and shield before the murlocs pop, and it should significantly improve the amount you're healing for, and thus your threat. Just remember to switch back before the murlocs get to you

.

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

Cathela · 12/05/07, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wolftusk

Quick question about Tidewalker...

The guild has me positioned for the fight near the water graves but far away enough from tidewalker that i do not get graved myself. The rest of the casters are further up the ramp between myself and tidewalker. I had a bit of a hard time grabbing agro from the murlocs from just spamming holy light (it did not help that i ususally could only get 2-3 heals off).

I was just wondering if it would be a reasonable strategy to move up the ramp immediately after watery grave is cast so that i can grab the murlocs with consecration/holy light and then move back down to my original spot by the graves so when the cooldown of the watery graves is up i can be far away from it enough that i do not get hit by it.

One thing we ran into trouble with is that apparently there's a range limit on healing threat. We had MT healers and raid healers picking up aggro and dying before I could get it off of them because they murlocs were coming into threat range of them long before they came into my threat range. To fix this problem, have the healers stand at max healing range and as close to you as possible. This minimizes the window during which they can get healing aggro and you can't. Shadow priests, too.

EDIT: 3 heals has always been plenty for me, and 2 usually does fine. Make sure you have pre-set healing targets that nobody else is allowed to touch until you get murloc aggro. Warlocks work best for this, of course.

Also, if you can arrange for full pushback-immunity (earthshield + Conc. aura, or a PW:S as the murlocs approach) that might help you finish that third heal if that's giving you trouble.

Oxudes · 12/05/07, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

Here's what we do: I have a warlock, who starts lifetapping as soon as he quakes (knocking the hp of people down), I have a macro to heal that lock only (max rank HL spam). I need to cast 2-3 heals to ensure all murlocs reach me. Other healers need to give you a 2-3 s head start before they heal after the quake comes (except mt healers). Even so, they should be carefull with aoe healing (god i hated shamans here).

Basically, if noone did aoe healing till murlocs reached me and no fancy big number healing, murlocs would reach me and stick to me like glue. That IS the tricky part however. We also have 1-2 druids here, who are dpsing in cat, but shift to bear and aoe taunt (1 at a time) if I get tombed (first time I bubble out of it, second time they need to taunt).

We're going to try it with a holy pala in pvp gear this week.

Denogran · 12/05/07, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by jasura

I tried doing holy light spamming and it didn't work for me. This is how our guild does it:

We bring 4 tanks. The tank for Morogrim, tank for the murlocs and two additional tanks. We tank morogrim on the right side of his room where that little cubby hole is with the tents. All healers stand DIRECTLY behind morogrim except for one healer who heals graves.

When the murlocs spawn, the two OT's pick up the murlocs not too far from where they spawn and bring them back. They don't pick them all up or do it perfectly but that's ok... The point is to prevent the healers from building up aggro the whole time while the murlocs are running towards them. The pally tank basically stands a tad bit away from the healer pack and consecrates. Because of where we tank him, the adds coming from the entrance get there about 5 seconds before the adds coming from the side leading leading to FLK.

I (or the other pally tank) consecrate about 4-5 seconds before the first pack gets to me. The dumb murlocs run through the consecrate and start taking ticks. Because of where I consecrate, it is far enough out that it hits them before they hit the healers but at the same time it's on top of the healers so if they do run through the consecrate it's still ticking when the murlocs stop. Because I consecrated 4-5 seconds before the first pack got there, I can then drag over to the right and re-consecrate in front of the second pack so the same thing happens to them.

The OT's on the murloc packs never pick them up for more than a few seconds or pick them all up but it's enough that if a murloc does get through they don't obliterate the healers like an entire pack does. Doing it this way seems to be more technical but I think it greatly simplifies the whole fight and provides much more control to the fight. We never have healers die anymore from murloc aggro unless they're standing away from the healer "pack".

By the way, the OT's also serve another purpose. If the pally tank gets graved, they can AOE taunt until I get back since where we position him doesn't grant the pally tank grave immunity.

How many holy pallies do you run with? I've found that unless someone is healing when they're not supposed to, the murlocs will _always_ be on a paladin or a priest when they come running up. If you stack the other pallies on top of where you're tanking them( if it's right on TW's ass then you get the benefit of AoE hitting him ), then you don't have to move at all in order to tank. Priests should absolutely be using fade here though, it's basically the ideal situation for that spell. If it gets resisted, toss them a BoP. Basically, I think our job as a tank is complicated enough as it is during the murloc time, and running around trying to gather them all up every earthquake just makes things a helluv a lot harder. But if it's working for you, then more power to ya.

Maccam · 12/06/07, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

As the author of the non-Fubar version, I was really shocked by how much AD actually kicks in. On "plain sailing" trash mobs and bosses, it's never active (as you'd expect), but with dicier pulls and progression bosses when the healing pattern isn't quite down, it generally adds up to about 2-3% mitigation and relatively often totally averts death 2 or 3 times a try.

I downloaded the version... interesting stuff. I haven't run a raid since I tried it - just heroics.

AD is almost never coming into play according to it. The few times it has, it's been in the middle of a bad pull where we wiped anyway.

It hasn't recorded a single death averted through AD. Total playing time in heroics is probably about 12 hours at this point, through about 8 runs.

Early days... and I'd have to see it in a raid environment... but if it continued like this, I'd question the usefulness of AD.

Also... the user interface... would it be possible to have it present summary numbers for some period other than a single fight? Or is that already in and I've just not done my homework?