Protection and you! - Page 29

teflamreilavehc · 12/09/07, 2:27 PM

I came upon this thread about a week or so ago (first time visitor to elitistjerks) and I am delighted by the vast wealth of intelligent discussion going on here. My guild mate Firebrandt on my server has been prot since the beginning of time, and I've recently respecced now that the number of holy paladins in my guild allows me a little more freedom. The two of us have more or less worked out most of what we know on our own, so it's great to read this thread and find out a) we got a lot of stuff right (even by accident) and b) there's a lot we hadn't even thought of. That said there are a few questions that I've been puzzling over:

Whats the point of taking Benediction? Is there any reason at all for Tankadins to have Mp5 (outside of 5 mans)? Whats the point of the t6 2-piece set bonus?

I've seen many pallies post builds in this thread that included benediction, and the criticism they received was always directed elsewhere (at anticipation or reckoning for example, but never benediction). It seems to me that if you're tanking any sort of raid content you're taking enough damage and getting enough heals to sustain any spells you would want to cast. For the most part our mana expenditure has a cap set by our cooldowns. Given the "worst" case scenario, where we're casting every threat spell we have exactly when the cooldown is up (ideal, I know) we have:
82.5 mps: Consecrate (660 mana, 8 second CD)
28.0 mps: Holy Shield (280 mana, 10 sec CD)
73.3 mps: Hammer of Wrath (440 mana, 6 sec CD)
22.7 mps: Exorcism (340 mana, 15 sec CD)
18.4 mps: Judgement (147 mana*, 8 second CD**)
32.5 mps: Seal of Righteousness (250 mana, cast every 8 seconds)
------------
257.4 mps expenditure

*I'm human, the base mana pool for other races may vary slightly and thus the cost of judgement.
**Improved, which increases mps expenditure.

So in order to sustain that with SA alone, you would need to suffer 2574 DPS (and the healing required to survive). Now I only have Karazhan experience as a tank so far (GL experience as a healer), but it seems to me like that isn't too unimaginable. You could of course increase your mps expenditure by casting Avenger's Shield every 30 seconds (but who does that?) or casting more than one seal per judgement (as I do frequently, but not regularly). I read earlier in this post about buffs (notably seals) causing threat, do people spam seals every GCD when they are between CDs? Even then, there would still be cap, albeit a bit higher. I haven't clocked yet the dps I take from raid bosses, but another tank told be he was taking 1300-1600 from GL trash, and it seems things would only hit harder from then on.

In reality, our mana expenditure is much lower, and we require much less damage to sustain it. Things like lag, targets being above 20%, and targets being non-undead decrease the amount of spells available to us to burn our mana. In Karazhan I can cast LoH with impunity because a few seconds later I'm back at half mana again. How does the mana expenditure increase as the content becomes more difficult in order to warrant that T6 two-piece set bonus?

Rorus Raz · 12/09/07, 10:16 PM

On trash I pretty much have to chug mana pots to keep up. Now, I can drink in certain places, but with ZA's timed run it's a potential time waster to have to slow down for mana.

Prinsesa · 12/09/07, 10:19 PM

As for the tank aggro - our mantra is no PoM, no Earthshield, and I think a Druid heal does it as well on the tank during murlocs. Same deal with tanks on the platforms for Al'ar. Those heals just aren't worth the hassle of the confusion that results.

If I recall my mechanics correctly, the threat generated by PoM and Earthshield's heals are attributed to the person that got healed, instead of the Priest/Shaman that cast the buff.

The same holds true for Lifebloom's Bloom effect when dispelled or expired, although the individual ticks still generate threat for the Druid.

I agree though that it might be better to just call off all heals completely.

@teflamreilavehc: I believe we need Benediction to access tier 2-3 of the Ret tree. Even if your raid does not have a completely PvE specced Holydin to provide Improved BoMight and even if your raid has enough physical DPS to justify the relatively marginal AP bonus of talented over untalented BoM, at the end of the day you're still not using it for tanking, which makes it more of a waste than Benediction providing excess mana.

PsiVen · 12/09/07, 11:14 PM

That's correct, PoM is probably the most useful heal in the game in threat-sensitive situations like that.

Morgain · 12/10/07, 5:18 AM

Hey there, thanks for the very nice info in this thread. I have myself recently respecced to tanking (again) after a long period of being a holy pala. We lacked tanks and since I had some very nice gear from the old days I gave it a shot.
We have completed Kara, Gruul on farm and are working in ZA and TK atm. So we don't have the same progress as many others.

I do have a question which might seem idiotic to the veterans here, but i hope you take the time to help me out.

I have one hell of a hard time to stay second on agro when offtanking bosses. I sit on 300 SD and 5.6k mana buffed and I seem to go oom very very fast. Ok so I use judgement of wisdom and boom my agro drops. I can't even drink manapots that fast. It seems that as soon as I'm not the MT and get agro from Holyshield I'm doomed to fail.
Can anyone help me out with some tips and tricks to stay second on agro in fights like gruul and VR for instance?

Thanks in advance.

Prinsesa · 12/10/07, 5:43 AM

There's really not a lot we can do to help our offtanking.

If we're not being hit, we lose all of the threat from Ret Aura and Holy Shield. We're not getting damaged either, which means Consecration is unsustainable without the mana return from SA.

Some options though:

1. Ask to be the MT - Warriors, and to a greater extend Druids make better offtanks than us because they generate rage (which they later translate into threat) via white hits, in addition to the fact that their threat-generating abilities do not rely on being hit themselves.

If you're on Gruul and there's only 2 of you, ask to MT Gruul - your DPS might be threat-capped far too much by letting you be the Hateful Strike tank.

Similarly, ask to be first-up on VR. Who knows, he might never come off :P

2. Heal/DPS - We are of course hybrids, and just as Ret Paladins are at times asked to help tank Hyjal trash waves, so can we strap on our healing/skull-cracking for the raid's greater good.

3. Chug pots - If there's just no way around it, drink those Super Manas like water and hope for the best. This isn't so bad for Gruul where you can make significant tradeoffs in terms of tank stats in order to maximize your spell damage/mana longevity, but for fights like VR where you can still expect to actually do some tanking, it can definitely get expensive.

As a fourth option, I've also been toying around with the idea of going with a Warrior-item-heavy setup and using Seal of Blood in conjunction. Maximize our self-inflicted (as opposed to reflected) damage, gain some SA mana regen from SoB's self-damage and hope for the best.

Hiroko · 12/10/07, 7:44 AM

Whilst I agree our offtanking capabilities are limited it's not quite as bad as some make out.
Some people will swear blind that a paladin cannot OT Gruul and yet I have done it a number of times (before 2.3, haven't been to visit him since). Yes, I often had to use mana pots and did go with extra spelldamge food/elixirs, but my gear stayed the same as it would for any other boss. Using SoVengeance helps, as it still ticks during the shatter, as does using Avenger's Shield straight after shatter, before you run back into range - you have to be quick on it though, or one of your melee may take the strike instead.

I agree on Void Reaver, our job is much easier if we go in first, but again it's not all woe if you lose aggro - the constant poundings tend to give you sufficient mana to keep max rank consecration up and again I'll use SoVengeance, judging every 10 seconds. I'll use Avenger's Shield when mana allows and Avenging Wrath when it's available again (use it on the pull) but making sure I have a decent amount of mana ready to make full use of it.

At Tidewalker I tank murlocs, and while the guild have done it without me - 2 other paladins cross healing each other for aggro I believe - it's much smoother when I'm there. We tank Tidewalker in the doorway of the tunnel to Karathress's room and I stand at the base of the ramp, near his initial spawn point. Ranged dps and healers stand at the top of the ramp, at max range to Tidewalker, but in range and line of sight to me. In this position I avoid all watery graves, due to LoS or range and am at the point where both sets of murlocs will arrive at me at the same time as they run in from the opposite ends of the room. Usually have 1 holy paladin assigned to heal me, and he tops off the people coming out of the graves too. if we're short on warlocks then we have one lifetap so I can get 3 holy lights on him, if not I just have 3 warlocks set as player targets in oRA2 and hit each one with a max rank holy light as soon as the earthquake happens. Unless another healer has been silly and hit PoH or let a full stack lifebloom expire on the tank, then all the murlocs come to me every time. 2 or 3 consecrates while the aoe comes in and wait for next earthquake.

The tricky part comes once he's under 25% and we move into the tunnel fully, as then one set of murlocs is on us almost immediately after earthquake, meaing I don't get time for the healing aggro moves, and instead have to rely on consecrate alone with liberal use of taunts and BoP from all the paladins.

----

In my build I've taken 3/3 pursuit of justice for the increased chance for spell misses and was wondering about others experiences on with it?
Biggest place I have noticed a difference is while tanking the adds at Al'ar - I seem to get hit less by the explosions when the birds die, making it much easier for me to position for the next one. I did also think it was affecting fears, but then at Vashj attmpts last night I don't think I resisted a single one from the striders (we're still learning to kite them properly) so now I'm not so sure.

Triadx · 12/10/07, 7:56 AM

Did my first 25man paladin tanking yesterday in Mount Hyjal for trash packs, felt really useless on banshee packs

Apart from that, it went swimmingly...was good fun

Morgain · 12/10/07, 8:18 AM

Well thanks for the advice so far. I never doubted we can OT I just have a hard time myself. Since BE dont have SoV are we using SoB or SoR to better maintain the agro as OT?

jasura · 12/10/07, 8:53 AM

Originally Posted by Morgain

Hey there, thanks for the very nice info in this thread. I have myself recently respecced to tanking (again) after a long period of being a holy pala. We lacked tanks and since I had some very nice gear from the old days I gave it a shot.
We have completed Kara, Gruul on farm and are working in ZA and TK atm. So we don't have the same progress as many others.

I do have a question which might seem idiotic to the veterans here, but i hope you take the time to help me out.

I have one hell of a hard time to stay second on agro when offtanking bosses. I sit on 300 SD and 5.6k mana buffed and I seem to go oom very very fast. Ok so I use judgement of wisdom and boom my agro drops. I can't even drink manapots that fast. It seems that as soon as I'm not the MT and get agro from Holyshield I'm doomed to fail.
Can anyone help me out with some tips and tricks to stay second on agro in fights like gruul and VR for instance?

Thanks in advance.

300 Spell Damage is not quite enough for TK and some parts of ZA. When I started tanking, I would use high-spelldamage pieces even if they were not plate or even designed for tanking. For example, on Morogrim on our first kills I used the big bad wolf's helm from Karazhan and the boots from heroic BF. I would later switch to using the boots from Heroic SH, wrists from Heroic Arc and belt from Heroic BM.

Taking a look at your gear, you are wearing a lot of "Warrior" gear. Wrynn Dynasty Greaves, Battlescar Boots, Crimson Girdle, your wrists, helm etc are all designed primarily for warriors and as such you're losing out on stats that pallies need like SpellDamage and Intellect.

The biggest upgrade that you can get is your weapon. If you can, grinding out the arena points to get the S2 Mace would be a HUGE upgrade. That alone would give you 100 spelldamage. The rest of the additional spelldamage that you will need should come in the form of Tier gear and the excellent badge rewards for pallies. The tier 5 legs are a nice upgrade but obviously won't come until you're deep into SSC. I would still acquire the rest of your Tier 4 set except for the chest, even if it's for high-threat/offtanking purposes. Running Heroic SH (EZMODE), Heroic Arc and Heroic BM will give you some very nice pally tanking off-set items in the form of wrists, boots and a belt. They have less avoidance and stamina than warrior equivalents but stamina and mitigation/avoidance mean squat if you can't hold aggro!

Beyond that, get creative with your damage rotations. For example, when I am offtanking I will wear my high-threat gear and wait for my Al'Ar trinket to proc (290 extra spelldamage). I'll then pop avenging wrath and start stacking Seal Of Vengeance on the mob. Using this method, I've had 5 stacks of SoV tick for more than 500 damage. That's ~300 TPS if I don't do anything. Factor in white damage and SoV 5-stack hits and it ends up being 500 TPS by just swinging my weapon with SoV on. Factor in judgements which hit way harder than SoR judgements as well as consecrate and avenger's shield and you can do a LOT of threat OTing.

I know that you are a blood elf and cannot do this but I was just trying to give you an example. As a previous poster also said, you will need to chug mana pots. This is kind of unfortunate but it's just how pally tanks work. I chug mana pots on more or less every boss fight.

The biggest thing that you need to do is build up a "High-threat" suit of gear for OTing. Shoot for more than 500 spelldamage buffed and once you get to that point, shoot for 600 spelldamage buffed. This is a lot easier than it seems as long as you put in the effort to get the gear. Run those heroics!! You need both the rewards from Heroic SH, Heroic BM and Heroic Arc as well as the badge rewards.

JulianMaiev · 12/10/07, 9:55 AM

I'm going to pick up Imp BoM over Benediction next time I respec. To be honest, the situations in which I'm manastarved aren't situations where judging is all that important anyway-- I'm paradoxically much more likely to be starved in a multimob tanking situation where I need to be leaning on the Consecrate button the whole time.

Gunn · 12/10/07, 11:15 AM

I pretty much disagree with most of the comments about Off-tanking paladins.

IMO if a paladin is being counted on to tank any 25 man boss, they should be Main Tank. Examples would be Gruul, Void Reaver, Al'ar. (not specific fights such as Hydross).

I have fairly nice Protection Paladin gear.

Armory Link

I'm wearing the gear I used to tank the Al'ar adds, ATM so don't freak out when you see it. I'll log out with the correct gear tonight.

Paladins gain Threat and Mana from being hit
Blessing of Sanctuary
Retribution Aura
Holy Shield

The only threat they can gain otherwise is
Consecration
Judgements
Seals
Avengers Shield

Now people will argue here, but the fact is. If you have any DPSERS worth their salt. There is NO WAY you're going to be able to get enough threat without being the FIRST in Rotation on Main Tanking. Except when Taunting is possible

Believe me I have tried and it is VERY difficult and extremely mana intensive to even try. If you're geared to tank the boss, you should go first. It's that simple. If you do not go first your chances for success have been diminished greatly.

Go first ONE time on the Void Reaver fight and you will see how impressive our threat generation is Main Tanking a boss and anyone in your guild that has an issue with you being first in Main Tanking rotation probably has an ego problem

kalbear · 12/10/07, 1:08 PM

Taking a look at your gear, you are wearing a lot of "Warrior" gear. Wrynn Dynasty Greaves, Battlescar Boots, Crimson Girdle, your wrists, helm etc are all designed primarily for warriors and as such you're losing out on stats that pallies need like SpellDamage and Intellect.

Please stop saying that paladins need intellect. This isn't just you; this is the entire world. Stop saying it. It's just not true. If you're OT you don't need it either; you're still going to go OOM with a bigger mana pool, you'll just do it in 20 seconds instead of 10. Honestly, paladin healing gear is better in that case, since it has boatloads of mp5 which might be useful. If you're the OT, I think that you'll need to give yourself BoW if you don't have it normally, make sure you've judged wisdom and chug and chug.

I think that alliance paladins can get away sometimes with OTing thanks to SoV. I think it's pretty much impossible for BElfs, though using SoB and forcing heals to come your way isn't the worst idea ever floated out there.

Denogran · 12/10/07, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gunn

I pretty much disagree with most of the comments about Off-tanking paladins.

IMO if a paladin is being counted on to tank any 25 man boss, they should be Main Tank. Examples would be Gruul, Void Reaver, Al'ar. (not specific fights such as Hydross).
...
Now people will argue here, but the fact is. If you have any DPSERS worth their salt. There is NO WAY you're going to be able to get enough threat without being the FIRST in Rotation on Main Tanking. Except when Taunting is possible

Believe me I have tried and it is VERY difficult and extremely mana intensive to even try. If you're geared to tank the boss, you should go first. It's that simple. If you do not go first your chances for success have been diminished greatly.
...anyone in your guild that has an issue with you being first in Main Tanking rotation probably has an ego problem

I absolutely disagree.

A) I'm not the _best_ geared tank in my guild. I'm arguably the 2nd best at this point in time, but for a while was 3rd-4th. Sometimes this is just the way it is. I'm not going to insist that I main tank something just because it's hard for me to off-tank. News-flash, it's hard for warriors to generate rage when they're not getting hit as well. It's not an ego thing, I'm just simply not as well-geared. This matters less on something like VR, where you're gonna have to tank at some point, but on Gruul? There was no way I was gonna MT him so our extremely well geared warrior could be there to just take hurtful strikes.

B) It's not easy, but it's hardly impossible to Off-tank. And you really don't need more than 300ish spell damage to do so. First, it takes some practice. The first couple of times I did VR, my aggro was awful. I didn't pot correctly, didn't time my spells correctly - and with VR, if you don't get aggro fast enough, you can't regen enough mana through SA to sustain your cycles. Gruul is almost comically easy, as there's pretty much damage happening all the time. Judge crusader, burn your wings and use seal of vengeance if you're alliance(if you're a BE, I'm pretty sure you should be using SoB in threat-starved situations - but I'm not a BE so I'm not certain). Your main concern will be potting early (before the Hurtful Strikes become meaningful), and not pulling aggro off the tank. Don't be afraid to stand in a cave in or two to start either, your healers will still be rather bored at this point and won't have any issues healing you up.

C) I really can't agree with jasura and the spell damage outfit while sacrificing plate (read: armor), and defensive stats. I think we've always got to remember that we're tanks, and are expected to not be squishy. I have outfits that'll put me pretty high up in holy damage, but all the times I've tried them I've taken far too much damage for my own liking. If you're dead, it doesn't matter how much threat you're generating.

• Snowy · 12/10/07, 1:24 PM

Get used to chain potting if you're OT'ing. This applies to Gruul OT'ing (not a problem with [Blue Ogre Brew] if you're cheap), VR when you're an OT for a while ([Bottled Nethergon Energy] is your friend here) or something like tanking Al'Ar adds, something that I could and should have used a different tanking set for. (less avoidance, more spell dmg)