Protection and you! - Page 4

Cromfel · 10/19/07, 2:03 PM

Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants [Greater Inscription of the Knight] vs [Greater Inscription of the Orb] and Aldor [Greater Inscription of Discipline] vs [Greater Inscription of Warding]. These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. [Item not found!] versus [Glyph of Power Word: Shield]?

PsiVen · 10/19/07, 2:10 PM

Good stuff here. I'd add [Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration] to the Shield section, its low stamina puts it below Kaz/Illidan but the massive armor beats Aldori.

Denogran · 10/19/07, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants [Greater Inscription of the Knight] vs [Greater Inscription of the Orb] and Aldor [Greater Inscription of Discipline] vs [Greater Inscription of Warding]. These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. [Item not found!] versus [Glyph of Power Word: Shield]?

I prolly missed this somewhere in that Main Tanking thread, but a stat value comparison between spell damage and stamina would be great, as these are the easiest to flask/food/oil to compensate for.

• Chicken · 10/20/07, 3:55 PM

Thanks for all the contributions while I was away. Expect a lot of the suggestions to pop up in the main post over the course of the next few days.

Good point on the multiple alternative shields to start out with especially, thanks.

As to the spell damage versus survivability choice for enchants, I'd say that's largely dependent on how well geared you are and how you feel about your aggro. I'd actually recommend if at all possible to keep some of your old gear around and enchant those optimally for spell damage, while setting your new gear to survivability (Generally I find that if you want more aggro, you generally don't mind losing the survivability, so using an older gear set is better for it).
When I get around to adding a list of suggested protection padin roles for each fight in the game though, I could probably include a note on whether it's a role in which you should probably favor survivability or where you should favor threat.

Naive · 10/21/07, 6:34 AM

I've never done any paladin tanking to date, but I've started putting together a tanking set for the hell of it. One thing that I think this guide lacks is any discussion on the different builds paladin tanks can use. For example, your build is a lot different than other prot paladins I've seen. Care to add something to that extent?

EDIT: Woops. I see you have it in your Future Additions section.

Stallo · 10/21/07, 6:53 AM

This is a great threat, but can you also add the TPS for Seal of Vengeance, Judgement of Vengeance and Blessing of Sanctuary?

galzohar · 10/21/07, 5:47 PM

I rerolled pally and had the honor to tank an instance, but couldn't get a proper "taunt" macro to work - aka target the mob and have the macro cast righteous defense on its target. That way if I lose aggro all I have to do is hit the macro rather than assisting the mob, casting righteous defense and then targetting the mob again.

(Searching for macro info on google got me pissed off as it lead me to multiple sites that sell books about WoW macros...

)

• frmorrison · 10/21/07, 6:11 PM

You are right, the macro should be in the OP, since it is important.

This came up in the first google hit, your googlefu is weak:

/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense

♦ s4dfish · 10/21/07, 6:33 PM

I like to add [target=none] to the end of that macro so that you don't need to change targets to taunt off a party member, just use the macro and use your glowy hand. Thus the macro looks like:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense

galzohar · 10/21/07, 7:29 PM

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I got the idea for it when I read and heard about a lot of protection paladins finding themselves healing more often than tanking, but when they were tanking they were *needed* to tank. Yet nobody likes to respec several times a week especially not during 1 raid, although if you're *really really* hardcore I suppose this kind of spec is totally useless to you as you can just respec per fight.

What you lose from raiding capability as a healer is imp LoH (which is kinda sad but it's the only thing I think is droppable) and the buff flexibility (buff kings only). In 2.3 (and if you specced into it beforehand) you lose some judging capability (especially the new improved judgement of the crusader). For these reasons this spec is losing a lot of viability when you have less than 3 pallies in a regular raid, so let's make it easy and say for now that it's not worth speccing into it if you're not regularly raiding with 3 pallies, as you kinda want minimum 2 paladin healers.

My real question is not the ability to heal with that spec, that's pretty obvious. What I was wondering is what you'll actually be able to tank with that spec. Obviously crush immunity isn't possible so tanking bosses isn't going to happen, and you don't have the stamina/damage reduction for it anyway. I was wondering more about tanking stuff like murlocs on morogrim, elementals on hydross, hunter pet and/or hunter on karathress, adds on astromancer/al'ar, offtanking void reaver etc. I don't have experience in BT/hyjal so I didn't include any fights there but I was wondering if there are fights there where this kind of spec could swap gear and tank those fights.

For tanking this spec obviously lacks damage reduction and HP buffing and maxed threat but it does have the basic armor/defense and imp righteous fury and seal of righteousness which seem to be the majority of your threat, although it's probably still a noticeable threat drop from full prot with holy shield.

For non-raid content: I doubt this spec would have any difficulty MTing regular 5-mans but would it be reasonable for heroic MTing? It seems to me like at least the easier heroics should be doable with it when you can't find a tank.

Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.

galzohar · 10/21/07, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by s4dfish

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense

I thing I understand the "/cast (...) Defense" but what does the rest of it do and is it needed?

Bop · 10/21/07, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I thing I understand the "/cast (...) Defense" but what does the rest of it do and is it needed?

The [target=targetstarget] is basically a /assist without actually switching target the mobs target, the spell you write in after (I.E Righteous Defence) is the spell thats cast on your targets target.

I'm not sure what the rest does exactly, but my macro of < /cast [target=targetstarget] Righteous Defence> works fine when I wish to taunt the mob i'm hitting back to me.

Aramul · 10/21/07, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by s4dfish

I like to add [target=none] to the end of that macro so that you don't need to change targets to taunt off a party member, just use the macro and use your glowy hand. Thus the macro looks like:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] Righteous Defense; [target=targettarget,help] Righteous Defense; [target=none] Righteous Defense

This can be written shorter as follows:

#showtooltip
/cast [help] [target=targettarget,help] [] Righteous Defense

The conditions are checked seperately, in order, and all reference the same spell. The empty [] casts the spell as normal (as if clicked in spellbook without a macro).

Daedelus · 10/21/07, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

*snip*

For non-raid content: I doubt this spec would have any difficulty MTing regular 5-mans but would it be reasonable for heroic MTing? It seems to me like at least the easier heroics should be doable with it when you can't find a tank.

Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.

A lot of the avoidance for a protection paladin comes later in the tree with Holy Shield and Ardent Defender so losing those if you are hoping to off tank seriously would put a pretty big dent in your mitigation which should be your first and foremost port of call if you are even considering being a tank of any kind.

Your spec is very holy heavy so it probably would be great for threat generation but in some of the heroics where the mobs tend to hit a bit harder (Slavepens and Mechanar spring to mind) you might find your healers getting slightly flustered at times unless you all severely out gear the content.

At present something like:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
would be fine for doing both, of course you lose some efficiency (through extra crit on HL / FoL) and bonus healing due to missing out on the higher tier holy talents but provided your healing gear is up to standard the efficiency should still be adequate for healing in raids and heroics provided you have good control of your healing.

You will lose the 10% stam from WE in 2.3 but if you are just off tanking then that build (and assuming you have decent gear) should be fine without the extra stamina due to the things you will be tanking.

Denogran · 10/22/07, 1:36 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I was trying to come up with a holy/prot spec for end-game that will keep the healing capability of regular healing specs while still maintaining minimal offtanking capability:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
...
Is this spec actually going to be of any use in raiding (of any level) or is it completely pointless and one should forget about it and just choose between tanking and healing?
While I don't really know (which is why I made this post, to see people's replies), I would guess it would fair fine for at least 5-man/heroics MTing and kara/gruul/mag offtanking plus possibly a select few fights in SSC/TK, and if that's the case at least it would be good for fresh-70 paladins who want to catch up to the top-end-game.

This spec is a fine holy spec, but you're really going to feel fairly gimped while tanking, unless your tanking gear is _awesome_. You're losing out on significant health (sacred duty, ardent defender), significant threat generation (reckoning, one-hand spec, holy shield), and a lot of avoidance (precision[ret tree], holy shield, shield spec). Depending on your dps/healing, you could be ok, but they'd have to play pretty nicely with you. Without holy shield, you're going to get hit unmitigated a lot, and without sacred duty you're going to have a lot less health available to drop.

It's a good spec if you're guild needs a healer, and then someone who can occasionally take a coupla blows. Although I'd switch out Defensive Aura with Redoubt personally, especially if you have AoE tank aspirations.