Marshmallow

First off yes, block value determines how much damage is negated by a successful block, which is based on the shields inherent block value, any items that have block value and a small amount from whatever strength you have. This is also increased by 30% with the 3/3 shield specialization talent and 10% by the Eternal Earthstorm Diamond coming in the 2.4 patch. If you mouse over your block on the character screen it will say "A successful block stops X damage."

Unlike warriors we don't gain any sort of offensive or agro bonus from our block value, as it has no effect on holy shield or blessing of sanctuary.

That being said I find block value to be a nice stat to have once you've got the 102.4% uncrushable, a good amount of stam, and enough spell damage for your agro needs. Depending on how much dodge/parry/miss you have it will vary, but Blocking is generally speaking going to account for roughly half of all incoming physical attacks (assuming Holy Shield is active of course). So having a higher value to negate damage on half of the hits you take adds up to a lot of damage over time.

I find it's especially nice on aoe trash like Hyjal, since you might block for 500 on each of 10 hits that would've done 1000 each, negating 50% total, as opposed to blocking 500 damage out of a single 10k hit for a mere 5%. It's important to note that aoe tanking will tear through your holy shield charges pretty fast, but while taking so many hits the redoubt talent tends to proc pretty reliably, making Hyjal trash one of the few times the 5/5 redoubt that is usually wasted points (since any additional block rating over the 102.4% is pushed off the table anyway) that you had to take to get the 3/3 shield specialization, actually comes in mighty handy.

 

Mordekhuul

So is it fair to say that if 45% of my avoidance is coming from dodge/parry/miss, but the avoidance macro is telling me I'm at 111% with holy shield up, that I'm really capping at 102.4% since the additional block rating is pushed off the table anyway? i.e. one shouldn't really be thrilled to be hitting higher than 102.4%, except for the additional value you might get from mitigation between holy shield refreshes?

 

• Chicken

If Holy Shield isn't running out of charges before you can refresh it, any Block Rating is essentially worthless if it takes you further past 102.4% yes. An exception would be if you could get your avoidance high enough so that you don't even need Holy Shield to reach the 102.4%, but this has few practical applications. There's not much that can crush that's also likely to go through all your Holy Shield charges.

Obviously Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, and Defense still have some value past that point in a situation where Holy Shield won't get it's charges used up when it comes to damage reduction, with all of those providing a full damage reduction as opposed to a partial damage reduction like block, as well as them taking precedence over block in how the hit table is calculated.

In situations where Holy Shield *does* run out of charges, Block Rating does keep it's value as damage reduction; while any blocks you do are likely to reduce damage taken by less than dodging, parrying or being missed, Block Rating scales so much faster that typically it comes out about equal when it comes to total damage reduction (As in those situations the attacks are also typically of low enough damage for your Block Value to reduce the damage they deal a fair bit).

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ Cathela

Resilience doesn't affect avoidance at all, and it won't impact your defense skill number. Resilience simply reduces your chance to take a crit.

If you're using a mixed resil/defense setup to reach crit-immunity, the only ways to check whether you've reached the mark are (a) add up the crit reduction from defense and the crit reduction from resilience and make sure they reach 5.6% (for a level 73 mob), or (b) use a mod like TankPoints to check that your incoming crit rate is zero.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Fiola

To bring up a very old topic, what do we know about RD resists, and whether it still works with spell hit?


I tried doing a test on the PTR using the mobs (68-70) + NPCs at the SL entrance.

0 spellhit/hit - 20~ casts, 1 resist (was more checking if I would see a resist in a reasonable amount of time)
4.36% spellhit, 0.25% hit - 42 casts, 0 resists


The chances of 42 casts seeing no resists, assuming spellhit does not affect RD and that base resist chance is 5%, is .95^42 = 11.6%. It's not a very large sample size, but I was curious if anyone else had a better set of data or understanding of current RD mechanics?

Note: RD would randomly not show in the combat log and randomly have no effect (again, not showing in combat log, so no indication if it was a resist or a miscast) on the PTR. That makes my numbers less reliable.



On a slightly random note, I kept Sanctity Aura after resetting talent points on the PTR. I activated Devo Aura and it's still there, so I'm providing 2 auras to myself. If this bug goes live, that could be a lot of fun for Prot tanking. = )
(seems to be a bug with the change to talents so that you only have train talents with multiple ranks once)

 

hypetech

I believe RD was recently changed to work off of melee hit chance, and not spell hit chance.

From 2.3.3 patch notes:

- Righteous Defense: The chance for this ability to land successfully on its targets is now increased by hit rating.

 

• Chicken

I'm pretty sure Fiola is aware of that. What Fiola's question is, however, is whether Righteous Defense is now benefiting only from Melee Hit, or if it's benefiting from both Spell Hit and Melee Hit.

I wish I had something to weigh in with, but nothing solid I'm afraid. I can report that I haven't seen many Righteous Defense resists since the change, but I can't say with any certainty if that's because it gets affected by both stats. I typically don't taunt anything more than two levels above me and I'm melee hit capped on those if it still has the same resist rate as it had before the change.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

galzohar

Block value is a waste of a stat when you want to reduce getting gibbed, compared to stamina etc. And if you want to minimize damage taken over time block value is a waste of a stat in comparison to avoidance.

When you're taking small hits (generally not from a boss, aka AOE tanking trash which is the only real reason to even have a prot pally in the firstplace) block value will reduce a very large amount of damage due to both holy shield and redoubt (meaning you will on average block between 41% and 100% of the hits you take if you're crush immune against bosses - actual % depends on the incoming attack frequency and your block rating). Generally the more hits/second you block the more damage is reduced by block value, and only when you take that many hits will block value be something to seriously look at as a mitigation stat. And even then - if you're going to get stunned stamina and armor (and chance to be missed and crit) is all that will save you - so even for hyjal AOE tanking I'd just stack stamina/armor over anything unless you never get near abominations.

 

Doriangray

Hmmm. That sounds harsher than it should, in my opinion. Yes, it's not a great set for tanking bosses. However, the amounts of spell damage and block value on the set make me think they actually gave it some thought at Blizzard, and itemized it specifically for the role of AoE tanking in the next instance tier.

Now I have to admit that I have yet to see the inside of MH, but I think I don't need to have been there to state that AoE tanking is the unique advantage protadins bring to the table there, that statement has been mentioned often enough, without any rebuttal. So I wouldn't say it's "useless" to collect a set that helps you work well in that respect. Nobody keeps you from collecting other gear that's much better suited to boss tanking.

All of this leads to the curious question: why is the itemization on the shoulders so noticeably different from the rest of the set?

 

◊ Oggie

I must be the only person I know who simply detests T5 shoulders. Only piece I'd never equip with a gun to my head. The T4 shoulders meshes nicely with T5, and vice versa however (and that's not a bad thing). I think a lot of prot pallies tend to undervalue block value, but I can certainly feel it when I'm low.

I ended up respeccing tonight for that lovable demon hunter with the big swords, and was frankly shocked how strong PoJ seemed. I think I may have to try to work another couple points in there at some point soon. I've always been a proponent of skipping Spell Warding and POJ, but it really felt pretty noticable.

 

• Snowy

I like the shoulders, as a threat piece. I put two [Glowing Nightseye] in there and you have a very nice item. Also indeed, the set in general is designed for Hyjal trash, and carries over to all trash in general, which is where you make the biggest difference.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

◊ Cathela

I'm not much of a fan of the T5 shoulders either (didn't get them til we had a VR kill where nobody else wanted the piece). They've got more pure avoidance than T4 and they've got more defense, which is handy if you're surfing on the edge of crit-immunity, but they've got less total avoidance, less threat, practically equal stamina, and you have to be taking blows of 7k or more (post-mitigation) before the armor on T5 is worth more than the block value on T4.

I'm not sure exactly what you're doing on Illidan, but I've been tanking flames (~3 raids of work on the fight so far) and while I don't really think I notice extra resists from PoJ, I definitely notice the faster movement speed when dodging the beams.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Morgain

Hello guys I once again come to seek wisdom.

Our guild is currently working on Leo and it seems I have a problem tanking him. As I can read from many guides I should be able to get the agro back after a whirl by using my avenger shield. I do that but plop nothing happens and he still goes for someone else in the raid. Then a warrior runs over uses shieldbash and boom has the agro.
I get the initial agro fine once the adds are down, even without a misdirect he's glued to me but after a whirl I can't get him back.
Any suggestions, any ideas of what I'm doing wrong?

 

Morax

Uhm... perhaps your DDs don't stop DPS for a second or two when WW is about to end?
We tell our Locks / SPs not to renew their Dots when we call the melees to run out (about 3secs left before WW CD is up) and hopefully there will be no Fireball, Shadowbolt when WW is ending.

Another idea is that you cast AS too early? - I cast it when WW hast ~0.5 sec left so it will hit right after the end - if i cast it with 1.5 sec left i have trouble throug lag that he is still WW. Also tell your shamans to drop Searing Totem, he will run towards them almost every time.

 

vorda

Exactly. Searing totem ignores agro resets, so the sooner after the reset they place a new one, the more threat it will have.

 

Gunn

DPS stops until you have aggro, searing totem, and what I do is chase the bastard around.

I judge righteousness first, then AS. One of the two are bound to hit and if both hit you have extra threat. Near the end remember you can throw your hammer as well. I also keep my Holy Shield refreshed during the whirlwind and consecrate if he's pathing towards me.

I usually have zero problems picking him up and it's quite fun chasing him around.

 

Kilkenny

Well now that i'm over crush by a fair margin, I've been fiddling with my build to measure some TPS performance. I basically took reckoning seeing as that is about all you can do...

What I thought I noticed last night is my SOR hits were absorbing a reckoning charge. Now I haven't used reckoning in quite some time, but I thought you got 4 extra white attacks over the duration of the buff. Well as best I could measure in my log was 2 attacks.

Anyone familiar with it at all?

 

Mordekhuul

What gloves do you prefer over tier 5? Glove is basically the last slot I have yet to fill with SSC/TK loot, and I'm looking for more spell damage in my gear right now, so I have been hoping for a drop from Leo for that one.

The only tier 5 I wear currently are shoulders. I gemmed my old tier 4 shoulders with +dmg and put a 15 spell damage enchant on them, and use it for AOE farming and for some AOE tanking.

 

Tilted

Leotheras Snap-aggro Tricks

I agree to doing both after a WW phase, but I prefer to do it in the opposite order. AS has 20 more yards to work with, less chance to miss (for most of us), and also hits harder. By using the Searing Totem tactic mentioned earlier, you can stand by it and start your AS cast as he runs to you. If both those hit and he's still chasing a clothy, ask how much they hit for after the aggro drop, just prior to getting their damn fool selves killed.

One trick I've found for Alliance pallies to make the demon->elf transition near-flawless is to build up a 5-stack of SoV while your warlock tanks. Right after the shift, judge Vengeance and switch to SoR. That way you'll get the bigger judgement for snap aggro, plus the DoT ticking away in addition to normal SoR threat. Using this trick plus HS and Cons, it's easy to sustain 1000+ TPS for 10 seconds or so, which is ample for DPS to rip into him. If you get an inner demon that throws a wrench into things, but even if you have a 2-stack of SoV built up prior to the shift that's better than nothing.

 

Doriangray

Oh, I want those tier 5 gloves too. But it seems the bosses in SSC got it figured out for us: Karathress almost always drops championx2, and leo caters to the other folks. I'm not absolutely desperate for them though, seeing how I would lose the 2pct4 bonus in my threat set.

BTW: Am I the only one that thinks t5 pants rock? I got those with runic spellthread, and they're awesome. For more mitigation, I can always swap into the unwavering ones. That's one of the reasons I'm not really after the upcoming badge pants either.

 

Morgain

Well thanks alot for the suggestions. It worked like a charm he was glued to me and we managed to down him today.
Thanks alot this community is awesome.

 

◊ Oggie

Yeah. I just got a bit teary.

This fight is pretty much the only situation where I advocate SoV. That or MTing Hydross, I suppose, but why you'd have a prot pally on Hydross and not on adds is a bit....confusing. I firmly believe the spell is horrible and have refrained from ranting about it in this thread because it's partially opinion (also tons of math, but it's my math so it's probably wrong), but I really like it for Leo be it tanking Demon or normal (I tank demon) there's some brilliant lead up time. Just don't use it for primary threat and you're fine.
Yeah, you more or less summed up why I hate T5 shoulders. If the libram on the badge vendor did not exist I would probably be less filled with disgust, but I'm in as much T6 as I want and I -still- have crushability 'problems' (I run about .5% or so off in almost all gear sets), but partially that's because I min/max like a fiend and rarely wear more than the bare minimum because there's usually something better (hp, +dam, AC, block value, in that order). As an aside, I adore tankpoints to a silly amount just wish there was some way to turn off the valuation of gear because I haven't looked at that since kara.

On Illidan I'm flame tanking, and I was taking about 20-30% more damage than the other flame tank (we kill mine first, and then I play free safety if his needs a taunt), then I respecced to frankly a horrible build for everything NOT this fight and I ended up with about 55% of his incoming raid damage on our oneshot. I'm not saying it's all the spec and not personal failure or anything, but that's absurdly different, and makes me wonder if PoJ doesn't cause multiple resist checks on certain fights that provide significantly more than 3% total (and I only had 2 points for that matter). I never found dodging eyebeams particularly hard, honestly, since our physical stage MT stands in one of the groups demo shouting for me and detailing, explictly, what exactly illidan's doing, and since he's spent every single fight doing this he knows EXACTLY when/where he will beam. If you're not doing that, it honestly trivializes that part and then it's just 'who's inside/who's outside, did he breathe holy hell I can't even see my own character f spell effects'. Not that I'm bitter I'm fighting the graphics engine rather than the boss or anything.

 

• Chicken

PoJ working well on Illidan flames is actually a double effect I think. The chance to resist spells work on everything except the flames melee attacks, and obviously moving 15% faster is less time spent in any part of the ground that's on fire. Spell Warding is still in theory better damage reduction in total, but with proper, fast movements being one of the primary ways of reducing incoming damage there it makes PoJ very good.

I've been specced for PoJ myself ever since our second Illidan kill, I don't think I could live without the extra movement speed any more. You very quickly get used to it, and it's actually quite handy to move a good deal faster than everyone else as a tank.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Xequecal

Why do people hate SoV so much? I don't get it. It's simply better than SoR for single-target tanking at any reasonable spell power level. With a stack of 5, the DoT is 50 DPS base with a DPS spellpower coefficient of 0.05733. The extra damage proc is 20 PPM and hits for 7% of your spell power, which adds 0.02333 to the coefficient. That's a total coefficient of 0.08066 vs. SoRs coefficient of 0.092. You would need over 2000 spell power for SoR to overtake SoV. You similarly need 1200 spell power for JoR to overtake JoV.

Assuming 500 spellpower, a 1.8 speed weapon, 10% melee miss/dodge/parry, and 10% resist rate, SoR does 65.25 DPS. The SoV DoT does 78.665 DPS. To lose the stack of 5, you need to not proc the DoT 8 times in a row. The chance of proccing it is (0.6)(0.9)(0.9), or 0.486. The chance of NOT proccing it is therefore 0.514, and the chance of not proccing it 8 consecutive times is 0.514^8, or 0.004872. That's a less than 0.5% chance to lose the stack. On top of the DoT, the instant proc adds 5.67 DPS, for a total of 84.335 DPS. It's MUCH higher than SoR. At the same time, JoV is doing 101.875 DPS, while JoR does 72.375 DPS. These two seals aren't even close, SoV is better even if you assume the 5-stack is only active 80% of the time.

 

• Chicken

Your assumptions of miss and resist rates seem a bit low. Bosses typically have a base rate of closer to 7% miss, 7% dodge and 14% parry, and the base spell resist rate on boses in 17%. Precision and Combat Expertise will help a bit on this, reducing the miss rate to 4%, the dodge rate to 5.75%, the parry rate to 12.75%, and the spell resist rate to 14%

SoV is also typically disliked due to the fact that it takes time to get going. Hence why a lot of Alliance Paladins here state they like it for fights with aggro clears: Due to the aggro clear it's basically like you get a full stack ticking right from the start.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of