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Old 01/16/08, 6:44 AM   #631
Gerilith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
I'd suggest to add general situational gearing tips and what to consider.

Groups of tanking tasks:
- Hardhitter
- Fasthitter
- Group tanking
- tauntable Mobs
- casters
- weak hitting single targets

The points to keep in mind:
- Block rating vs. avoidance (esp. looking at threat since avoidance is inversely propotional to our threat)
- the value of block rating (concerning EH)
- The need of avoidance, which is strongly depending on your EH in relation to the mob's attack speed and base damage
- the value of meleehit


Concerning SoV: I'm working on maths for the seal and one thing is for sure: without spellhit the variety of possible TPS patterns becomes too wide (spellresistchance comes up multiple times). You need to have a slow weapon and as much spellhit as possible for this seal. If you have these, it is far superior to SoR until very high amounts of spelldmg.

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Old 01/16/08, 8:05 AM   #632
Braque
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Turalyon (EU)
I would advise against using [Tome of Fiery Redemption] for tanking until you significantly out-gear the content. I like to have an "panic button" trinket (such as the ones from Morose or Hydros), since paladins only really have LoH for tanking emergences. I see you have the spyglass from ssc trash equipped in your profile at the moment.

(I know if you check my armoury now I'm holy, probably in pvp gear, I do tank for my raid, but just in Hyjal, multiple respecs per week is awesome mate. Makes me feel just like a warrior.)

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Old 01/16/08, 10:14 AM   #633
Gerilith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
With DC:Vengeance + Moroes' Pocketwatch you can tank all content except RoS P2, even Illidan's enrage (yes, I did this).

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Old 01/16/08, 12:37 PM   #634
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
Denogran's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
While trash tanking, Blessing of Sanctuary is quite useful.

Ghouls during Kaz'rogal trash hit for about 2200 before armor reduction, so 2200 * 40% = 880 . 2200-80 = 2120 * 40% = 848. So, 32 damage less each hit with 6 mobs on me stacks up. In addition, the block damage (~42-43 with my spell damage) is affected by Righteous fury, and I'm not sure about other tanks, but I block a lot. It equates to, according to Recount, ~3.8% of my damage in an average wave of mobs. Nothing to laugh about.
Right, not saying it's not. But you have to be bringing at least 4 pallies before it'll be useful. Light and Kings are obviously heaps more important than Sanct. And the likelihood is you'll have a holy pally with imp wisdom that will want to be rockin' that. So unless you're comfortable constantly buffing 10 minute buffs, and having some semi-complicated scheme like you bless Kings on the pallies and 10-min sanct on yourself, and a imp-wis pally blessing wisdom on the pallies and 10-min kings on you. Perfectly doable, but not worth doing if Kings ever falls off( other pally forgets/dies/off healing someone else).

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Old 01/16/08, 12:44 PM   #635
Gerilith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Denogran View Post
Right, not saying it's not. But you have to be bringing at least 4 pallies before it'll be useful. Light and Kings are obviously heaps more important than Sanct. And the likelihood is you'll have a holy pally with imp wisdom that will want to be rockin' that. So unless you're comfortable constantly buffing 10 minute buffs, and having some semi-complicated scheme like you bless Kings on the pallies and 10-min sanct on yourself, and a imp-wis pally blessing wisdom on the pallies and 10-min kings on you. Perfectly doable, but not worth doing if Kings ever falls off( other pally forgets/dies/off healing someone else).
Erm..one Holy has imp. wisdom, one has imp kings and I simply buff salv on pallies. The forth paladin will most likely just buff BoL on everyone. At warriors, I buff sanc + 10min salv on the furies.

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Old 01/16/08, 2:01 PM   #636
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
I think for general benefit imp sotc is best if you don't already have it in your raid. 3% raidwide crit is a huge boost on bosses. Other paladins can keep up JoW.

Very few tanks I know go with improved ret aura. It just isn't active enough and doesn't do enough to warrant the points, especially compared with improved judgment, improved sotc, 1hws, reckoning, etc.

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Old 01/16/08, 2:12 PM   #637
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
Denogran's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Gerilith View Post
Erm..one Holy has imp. wisdom, one has imp kings and I simply buff salv on pallies. The forth paladin will most likely just buff BoL on everyone. At warriors, I buff sanc + 10min salv on the furies.
Salvation? On paladins? This is because of a ret pally, or for the healers? If it's for the healers, then I'd really take another look at that. (Paladin without Salv does .25 threat/heal. Priest/Druid/Shammy with salv does .35 threat/heal. So your paladins have to be healing 1.4 times what your other healers are healing in order to get even on the threat. Which in my raids is still far below that of the tanks and dps). If it's for the ret pally, he should keep 10-minute salvs active on himself, as it will only benefit him out of all the pallies, and he can give everyone else a more useful buff( unless you have 6 pallies in the raid, in which case everyone gets pretty much everything ).

If you have paladins healing you, you should always have Blessing of Light up.
1 pally (you): Kings
2 pallies( you + healer): Kings and Light(Have holy pally keep wisdom up on himself)
2 pallies( you + ret ): Kings + Sanct/Might/Wis(depending on if ret has kings)
3 pallies( you + 2 healers): Kings, Light and Wisdom(Sanct if you use the semi-complicated scheme discussed in my previous post)
3 pallies( you + ret + holy): Kings, Light and Wisdom(Sanct...). Have ret pally bless light and take care of his own salvation.
4+ pallies: Yay buffs!

ps. There is no imp kings?

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Old 01/16/08, 2:31 PM   #638
Damnathor
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Denogran View Post
If you have paladins healing you, you should always have Blessing of Light up.
Perhaps this is your opinion, but generally, with only 2 (healing) paladins in the raid, I find Kings/Sanctuary/Imp. Wisdom to be just fine for me.

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Old 01/16/08, 3:31 PM   #639
Left
Don Flamenco
 
Left's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by Denogran View Post
Salvation? On paladins? This is because of a ret pally, or for the healers? If it's for the healers, then I'd really take another look at that. (Paladin without Salv does .25 threat/heal. Priest/Druid/Shammy with salv does .35 threat/heal. So your paladins have to be healing 1.4 times what your other healers are healing in order to get even on the threat.

[some other stuff]
Just out of curiosity, where do those threat numbers come from? I thought that base healing threat was universal across the board, split among all mobs as (healing done)/2. Is that not the case? And if not, then does using Righteous Fury remove that threat reduction?

I'm talking base threat here, as in, before modified by talents (such as Priest talent Silent Resolve) or buffs (such as Salv).

Last edited by Left : 01/16/08 at 3:31 PM. Reason: Clarity

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Old 01/16/08, 3:33 PM   #640
Zupal
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Blackrock
Did a search in this thread and it yielded no results so I'll ask:

Does Earthen Elixir stack with Blessing of Sanctuary (for a total of -100 damage) or does Sanctuary's damage reduction "overwrite" the elixir's (just -80 from BoSanc)?

I'd test it but I'm theory-crafting from work.

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Old 01/16/08, 3:58 PM   #641
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
Denogran's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Just out of curiosity, where do those threat numbers come from? I thought that base healing threat was universal across the board, split among all mobs as (healing done)/2. Is that not the case? And if not, then does using Righteous Fury remove that threat reduction?

I'm talking base threat here, as in, before modified by talents (such as Priest talent Silent Resolve) or buffs (such as Salv).
Most healers generate .5 threat per 1 pt healed. Paladins are actually at .25 threat per point. The .35 was .7(salv) applied to the base .5.

I don't have any hard data to support this, but to the best of my knowledge it's been an accepted fact that paladins gain half as much threat/heal than normal. See: MT and murloc thread which shows others at least with the same belief.

As for Righteous Fury, it doesn't quite even it out. Imp RF gives a .9 increase to threat caused by holy spells, so you sit around .475 threat/heal.

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Old 01/16/08, 4:39 PM   #642
Questioner
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
@Damnathor - You can choose to use ret aura (and 2/5 T5) without speccing into improved ret aura. The only time I specced imp ret aura was when I did a farming weekend. Also, I have never seen a paladin tank use might on themselves...or even have it at all until the 5th blessing. You get much more mileage our of kings/sanc/wisdom/light.

Also, the recent consensus has been that reckoning is a farming talent and not a raid tanking talent. Personally, I put two points into it so that it can proc on aoe pulls/farming but lessens my chance of getting parry gibbed (as with a full 10%).

As for which trinkets to use on Hyjal trash...well you linked some great ones. Just keep this is mind: A dead tank generates no threat. So there is little point in overemphasizing threat if it puts you at death risk.

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Old 01/16/08, 5:09 PM   #643
Gerilith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Denogran View Post
Salvation? On paladins? This is because of a ret pally, or for the healers? If it's for the healers, then I'd really take another look at that. (Paladin without Salv does .25 threat/heal. Priest/Druid/Shammy with salv does .35 threat/heal. So your paladins have to be healing 1.4 times what your other healers are healing in order to get even on the threat. Which in my raids is still far below that of the tanks and dps). If it's for the ret pally, he should keep 10-minute salvs active on himself, as it will only benefit him out of all the pallies, and he can give everyone else a more useful buff( unless you have 6 pallies in the raid, in which case everyone gets pretty much everything ).

If you have paladins healing you, you should always have Blessing of Light up.
1 pally (you): Kings
2 pallies( you + healer): Kings and Light(Have holy pally keep wisdom up on himself)
2 pallies( you + ret ): Kings + Sanct/Might/Wis(depending on if ret has kings)
3 pallies( you + 2 healers): Kings, Light and Wisdom(Sanct if you use the semi-complicated scheme discussed in my previous post)
3 pallies( you + ret + holy): Kings, Light and Wisdom(Sanct...). Have ret pally bless light and take care of his own salvation.
4+ pallies: Yay buffs!

ps. There is no imp kings?
Whoops imp Kings

Anyway, I'm aware of the theory "paladin does half of the healing aggro", but safety is something you can't buy and Sanctuary is'nt something to be preferred just because of some points of damage less IF they recieve damage. Blessing of Light can be provided by a 10-minute blessing and the holies will dare to heal themselves (or even each other) so that it does not make much sense to me. Not more than Salv.

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Old 01/16/08, 5:50 PM   #644
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
Denogran's Avatar
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Gerilith View Post
Whoops imp Kings

Anyway, I'm aware of the theory "paladin does half of the healing aggro", but safety is something you can't buy and Sanctuary is'nt something to be preferred just because of some points of damage less IF they recieve damage. Blessing of Light can be provided by a 10-minute blessing and the holies will dare to heal themselves (or even each other) so that it does not make much sense to me. Not more than Salv.
Well the thing is, unless your pallies are healing way, way more than your other healing classes, you want them at the top of the threat meter ( as far as healers go ). That way, if something happens to your tank (daze, intimidating shout, etc), where the mob runs off toward your nearest friendly healer, it's running toward someone with a boat-load of armor( My holy buddy has over 18k armor in full-healing gear, which is only ~1k less than I do).

I really think that Salvation is pretty much the most useless buff for any non-ret pally of any available. I think from a safety standpoint, you're actually hurting yourself. Anecdotally, I'll say that we haven't run with salv( barring 6 or 7 pallies in our raid) from kara through Hyjal (now 4/5 hyj and 1/9 BT), and pallies drawing healing aggro has never been the cause of a wipe.

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Old 01/16/08, 6:26 PM   #645
Damnathor
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Arthas
Originally Posted by Questioner View Post
@Damnathor - You can choose to use ret aura (and 2/5 T5) without speccing into improved ret aura. The only time I specced imp ret aura was when I did a farming weekend. Also, I have never seen a paladin tank use might on themselves...or even have it at all until the 5th blessing. You get much more mileage our of kings/sanc/wisdom/light.

Also, the recent consensus has been that reckoning is a farming talent and not a raid tanking talent. Personally, I put two points into it so that it can proc on aoe pulls/farming but lessens my chance of getting parry gibbed (as with a full 10%).

As for which trinkets to use on Hyjal trash...well you linked some great ones. Just keep this is mind: A dead tank generates no threat. So there is little point in overemphasizing threat if it puts you at death risk.
The Might isn't for me It's for Rogues/enh shamans/fury warriors/hunters.

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