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Old 01/18/08, 4:19 PM   #676
LockApologist
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warlock
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Assuming blue healing gear and a shadow priest, can a pure prot paladin heal a non-heroic with a shadow priest?
Yes.

You'll drink more between pulls, and have less ability to recover from double pulls due to lack of efficiency.

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Old 01/18/08, 4:20 PM   #677
vorda
Bald Bull
 
vorda's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Assuming blue healing gear and a shadow priest, can a pure prot paladin heal a non-heroic with a shadow priest?
Yes, he's mainly loosing light's grace (hps), healing light (hps and hpm) and illumination (hpm). The spriest mana and group healing (he'll need VE when there is AoE dmg, dont think he can do enough HPS with flash to keep group + tank up) should make up for the HPM losses. Assuming he can keep the tank up (even if needed with max rank HL), everything else is down to execution.

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Old 01/18/08, 4:44 PM   #678
Lunkhedd
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
Assuming blue healing gear and a shadow priest, can a pure prot paladin heal a non-heroic with a shadow priest?
You don't even need a shadow priest. I first solo-healed normal Shadow Labyrinth as protection at level 69 with about 800 +healing, and nobody's ever confused me with God's gift to healers. Tank was level 70 but also in blues (and stood in Murmur's sonic boom...).

Expect to use a potion or two, though.

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Old 01/18/08, 5:02 PM   #679
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
While uncrusheable is not a nescessity for murlocs, it's very nice due to blocking more of the attacks, as their hits are so weak that each block is a significant damage reduction. Of course if you're a few % short it's probably not going to be anything major as you'll just lose holy shield slightly slower on average and waste slightly more redoubt procs (due to them not running out fast enough before reapplying themselves and you take hits in the meanwhile).

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Old 01/18/08, 5:12 PM   #680
Denogran
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
While uncrusheable is not a nescessity for murlocs, it's very nice due to blocking more of the attacks, as their hits are so weak that each block is a significant damage reduction. Of course if you're a few % short it's probably not going to be anything major as you'll just lose holy shield slightly slower on average and waste slightly more redoubt procs (due to them not running out fast enough before reapplying themselves and you take hits in the meanwhile).
To be fair though, you can't assume 100% uptime in AoE situations on Redoubt+Holy Shield, so your comment essentially is "Get more avoidance gear because that'll help you take less damage." Uncrushable really has nothing to do with that though, unless you get to be passively uncrushable, which requires slightly better gear than most people at TW.

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Old 01/18/08, 5:16 PM   #681
Lunkhedd
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Perenolde
Originally Posted by ulath7 View Post
What in your estimation should be the minimum stats (buffed) for tanking the adds in this encounter. Obviously un-cribtable+Uncrushable is necessary, and from what I read on the first page no specific resists are needed...

Our guild has beat VR, will be takign on Solarian (BOO no Tankadin used there), but the raid leads are leaning towards a Tankadin for this...
As it happens, I'm currently logged out in my Morogrim add tanking set, so you can take a look at the armory for a couple of ideas. Just pretend I wasn't too lazy to enchant my weapon. It's also worth noting that we've only killed him once. I had much less +healing (and more spell damage) when we did kill him, by the way, though I think the difference in boss survival had more to do with the number of AoEers we had available.

Pretty much, you just want to cram as much +healing in as you can without becoming crittable. The better the healers are at managing threat, the less you need, which will give you more freedom to put on more mitigation or spell damage gear.

Make sure the people you'll be healing to get aggro have Blessing of Light and Amplify Magic, especially BoL.

It's also possible to use a holy paladin to get healing aggro and have a prot paladin pull the adds off him with Consecration. The holy paladin will need to be able to survive a few seconds of being hit. This approach will let each paladin wear more specialized gear, which could be useful if your healing set is poor.

P.S. tank the melee adds on Solarian. The "rotate challenging shout" approach is pretty silly by comparison.

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Old 01/19/08, 1:39 PM   #682
Dominick
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dethecus
Deignate the warlocks as yours to heal. Get the Kara Libram and put BoL on them. Fel Armor with a boosted FoL makes up fors whatever gear your wearing pretty easily. Just make sure the other healers leave your warlocks alone and that the warlocks hurt themselves with lifetap AFTER earthquake. Otherwise they can kill themselves if they aren't paying attention.

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Old 01/19/08, 2:15 PM   #683
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
You won't have 100% uptime, but you'll block more as uncrushable than crushable. You can say it's because of your higher avoidance, but it doesn't matter. Also block rating is actually useful on both AOE tanking (as a blocked attack does very little dmg there, of course this varies depending on what you tank) and is also helpful for getting uncrusheable.
You're right though, that at the end the general avoidance+block rating for the downtime of holy shield/redoubt and pure avoidance for when it's up (if you're already uncrushable as during those times additional block rating does nothing) is what really matters, and large amounts of avoidance are probably preferable to uncrushability. Of course, block rating is also much easier to get due to rating conversions and item budget. So at the end while it's not the direct reason, being uncrusheable will mostly be better than not on aoe tanking.

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Old 01/19/08, 2:38 PM   #684
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
Cathela's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by vorda View Post
And what if you think you might pull healing agro in the first few seconds in hyjal waves (or any complicated trash pull without a pala tank for that matter) but still want more threat than other healers?
Then run with just Imp RF and you'll be just above the threat of a salved non-paladin healer. (0.45 vs 0.35). If your threat control needs to be finer than that, you should probably just rethink how you're doing the pull.

Originally Posted by Foofu View Post
Math please to back up your conjecture that 143 spell damage > WF on a single target? I don't think it's so cut and dried that you can just assume it's better and I've never seen math in either thread to support your theory. (In the old thread WoA on it's own was found inferior to WF on single targets.)
The rule of thumb is +2 spelldamage ~= +1 TPS, so 143 spelldamage is roughly a 70 TPS boost. Windfury is roughly 20% more melee and SoR threat, so your total melee + SoR threat needs to be around 350 TPS to break even. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say WoA+oil is better at lower gear levels, but WF overtakes it by T5 or so.

Of course, if you're using SoV, WoA+oil will probably always be better.

Originally Posted by Yenadar View Post
Just a note about this... I HIGHLY recommend getting Figurine of the Colossus (Steamvaults heroic I believe).
Regular Shattered Halls. (Which means it also drops on heroic, of course.)

It has no internal cooldown, and there is no limit to it that I have found. I have used it on pulling half the SM Cathedral by aggroing the last boss, and healed 15,000 health in 20 seconds from that trinket alone. (Granted, this is extreme, and against stuff 32 levels lower, but an example on it's capacity).
A more practical use is farming the Demon Hunter Initiates on top of the Temple of Karabor in SMV. You can pull the entire field of 2-3 dozen initiates and AoE them down using the figurine as your only heal.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 01/19/08, 4:09 PM   #685
Sangreal
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Dragonmaw
Cloak comparison

Hi, I would like to ask the paladin tanking community a quick question. I am a holy pally who just got Pepe's Shroud of Pacification thrown into my bag. I would like to build up my tanking gear but I am undecided whether the Shroud is better, or should I continue farming for the Devilshark Cape?

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Old 01/19/08, 4:44 PM   #686
Gerilith
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Sangreal View Post
Hi, I would like to ask the paladin tanking community a quick question. I am a holy pally who just got Pepe's Shroud of Pacification thrown into my bag. I would like to build up my tanking gear but I am undecided whether the Shroud is better, or should I continue farming for the Devilshark Cape?
Pepe's is better for everything but trashpulls with a huge number of adds to tank.

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Old 01/19/08, 7:03 PM   #687
• Chicken
Mod
 
Chicken's Avatar
 
Gnome Monk
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Yeah, Pepe's is a lot better than Devilshark Cape; Devilshark does have slightly better avoidance (0.36% more; or 0.68% more contribution to uncrittability), but is otherwise largely inferior.

If you do need the defense or the extra avoidance over Pepe's you'd be better off saving up some badges for [Slikk's Cloak of Placation] (The bonus armor on it will probably also largely cover for the 22 block value); or you could of course hope to get the [Phoenix-Wing Cloak] off Al'ar, but I figure that if you get Pepe's thrown at you with no one else needing it you'll probably not be running TK any more.

Originally Posted by Cathela View Post
A more practical use is farming the Demon Hunter Initiates on top of the Temple of Karabor in SMV. You can pull the entire field of 2-3 dozen initiates and AoE them down using the figurine as your only heal.
The trinket is also just good for any soloing you might choose to do which pulls a whole load of mobs. It's also just plain one of the best passive avoidance trinkets if you're killing stuff which can't hit hard enough to get through your block value.

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Old 01/21/08, 6:34 AM   #688
Mimir
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
I've found the OP and the rest of the thread very useful for gear selection and tanking tips - many thanks. One small quibble with the encounters list:

Originally Posted by Chicken
Reliquary of Souls - Heal. No gear switching possible in between phases, and mechanics make warriors near required tanks for the second and third phase. The second phase requires spell reflect unless your guild heavily outgears the encounter. The third phase has a large mana/rage burn which deals a lot of damage; the mana burn part isn't so much a problem as the damage taken by this ability is.
EoD obviously requires a warrior, but after our first messy kill, we've had rather more success with a paladin tank for EoA. Soul scream actually seems a lot less dangerous for mana users with a small mana pool, and after the first (which hits for about 7k total), they all look more or less like this:

1/20 20:17:42.584  Essence of Anger 's Soul Scream hits you for 2900 Shadow damage.
1/20 20:17:42.584  Essence of Anger 's Soul Scream hits you for 560 Shadow damage.
The second part is the mana burn damage. I don't think any were over 4k total, while they were often hitting our warrior for 11k, with the potential for 8k+ crushings and aura ticks. I've never been crushed by EoA, and although I guess it's possible if HS expires just after a soul scream with slow healing, it's fairly unlikely. Together this makes the potential burst much, much lower and so it's considerably easier to heal - I don't think I dropped much under 50% hp on last night's kill. We also found threat was less of an issue (although obviously there's no option of taunt/mocking blow/commanding shout chains at the end of the fight) due to the damage scaling. Avenging wrath+icon of the silver crescent at a decent damage multiplier provides a lot of threat.

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Old 01/21/08, 6:37 AM   #689
• Chicken
Mod
 
Chicken's Avatar
 
Gnome Monk
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Yes, that's correct. Most of the Black Temple boss bits were written before I'd experienced them myself, and at the time I'd never heard of any Protection Paladin succesfully tanking Essence of Anger, so I assumed that part of the fight to also be better doable with a Warrior.

However it appears Soul Scream follows the same burn mechanics as any power burn does, which means it does a mere 0.5 damage per mana, while it does do 10 damage per rage.

I really need to update some of those.

Edit: I've updated the little boss tidbits. Reliquary of Souls is now corrected to state that you are definitely a viable tank for phase 3, Mother Shahraz is slightly expanded, and I've added a Zul'Aman section.

Last edited by Chicken : 01/21/08 at 6:59 AM.

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Old 01/21/08, 8:11 AM   #690
 Oggie
Disharmonious
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Lightbringer
Actually I'd argue (pretty heavily) that pallies are the strongest tank for RoS P3, especially if you use the seethe trick.

The ability to frontload aggro is a paladin staple, even if attempting to use the shield toss could well turn you into more of a punching bag than an effective tank, activating Seethe (other tank taunts and you spam yours to yank it off, while all DPS sits in the corner for 10 seconds), gaining the 300% aggro modifier, and tripping AW is simply unreal. Bribe a hunter to MD durring that period and it's just not realistic that you will be caught.

The ability to burn mana like it's going out of style, by spamming Righteous Fury if nothing else, doesn't hurt either. And don't forget you can hit him with Exorcism.

Though we've only downed him the once, so I can hardly pretend I'm an expert, I think that the paladin mechanics lend themselves a bit more.

Out of curiousity, how do you handle P1 with a threat trinket? Admittedly I still have the T4 helm (do. not. ask.), but I was getting hit pretty regularly, and could not tank him for more than maybe 5-6 fixates, and that's with 2 avoidance trinkets. We really didn't want to use more than 3 'tank' suited people (one of the primary tanks has full S2/heavy S3, so just wore that with a shield for the stamina), but we found ourselves having to ask a pally to step up for a fixate or two before he went down, and it's not like we often reached the third enrage. I'm very surprised to hear that you can afford the trinket slot for Icon.

Originally Posted by bartolimu View Post
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

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