Protection and you! - Page 47

Mimir · 01/21/08, 9:20 AM

Phase one is somewhat more annoying than when I used to wear very heavily block oriented gear and could tank most of the phase with help at enrages. I find I can probably do about 8 or 9 fixates and end up at 40% health or so with sensible use of shields/BoSac from other paladins and so on. Usually with two rogues for enrages, our P2 warrior and feral druid can handle the rest of P1 (last night we only had one rogue, which was a pain, but we cycled a few people). We usually kill EoS just before/during/after the second enrage, so there's not a massive amount of damage to be soaked. Overall, you can use a lot of people for P1 if needed (although it's easier with as few tanks as possible), whereas the requirements for P2 and P3 are more stringent.

ulath7 · 01/21/08, 4:44 PM

Sorry, not to take away from your BT discussion, but I'm having a "problem" holding aggro in say Karazhan and don't trust the WoW forums to get a straight answer

I'm currently "training" myself to be a viable OT for Morogrim and other encounters, but I seem to have a problem holding aggro in "regular" tanking scenarios. Some stats:
16,000 HP buffed, Uncritable, Uncrushable, +spell hit 50 or less, + spell damage ~250, +hit 0 or close to it. Using a "rotation" of Holy shield -> Consecrate -> JoR (rince repeat as cooldowns allow).

What am I doing wrong? or what stat should I increase (without losing tankability) to generate more threat? Spell damage? Spell hit (although that's a toughie)

wintermuteCF · 01/21/08, 5:12 PM

Background: I'm a paladin in a 3/5 Hyjal 4/9 BT guild (we made all our BT progression and the latter two MH kills this most recent week), so that ought to give you some idea as to our gearing level. The protadin that we had been grooming for the role of tanking the Hyjal trash got banned a few days ago, and the mantle of protadin has fallen to me (since my prot gear was the best, and I also have great holy gear already for BT).

Tanking the trash last night was my first experience, and considering it's Azgalor trash (arguably the hardest), I'm doing fine in my current gear. I think I require a little more healing than would be normal, but on the whole I could hold aggro and didn't get gibbed instantly.

The Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

The Question: Our guild only raids three nights a week, but are considering going back and doing some older raids to key recruits / alts / etc on our off-nights. They also want to take the opportunity to gear me as best they can for prot to make me tanking (and others healing me) easier. Given the drop tables in SSC, TK, and Gruul, what are the biggest and most substantial upgrades - or better said - assuming perfect droprates, where is our time best spent?

In case my Armoury is bugged / shows soloing or other gear:

Head: Tankatronic Goggles, Powerful Earthstorm Diamond, Enduring Talasite, Glyph of the Defender
Shoulders: Pauldrons of Stone Resolve, Solid Stars, Greater Inscription of the Knight
Neck: Barbed Choker of Discipline
Cloak: Pepe's Cloak of Pacification, Dodge Rating
Chest: Jade-Skull Breastplate, 150 Health
Wrist: The Seeker's Wristguards, Fortitude
Hands: Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden, Solid Stars, Heavy Knothide Armour Kit
Waist: Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable, Solid Stars
Legs: Timewarden's Leggings, Solid Stars, Clefthide Leg Armour
Feet: Battlescar Boots, Solid Stars, Fortitude
Ring: Shermanar Great-Ring
Ring: Violet Signet of the Protector
Trinket: Adamantine Figurine
Trinket: Violet Badge

Weapon: Gladiator's Gavel, Major Spellpower
Shield: Shield of Impenetrable Darkness, Major Stamina
Libram: Libram of Repentance

I'm several percentage points past uncrushable, something like 107% with kings-only. Italicized are the items I'd most like to replace, either because they are blues, or because I don't think they are contributing much (in the case of my second trinket).

Recommendations are invited, and thank you in advance.

Denogran · 01/21/08, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by ulath7

Sorry, not to take away from your BT discussion, but I'm having a "problem" holding aggro in say Karazhan and don't trust the WoW forums to get a straight answer

I'm currently "training" myself to be a viable OT for Morogrim and other encounters, but I seem to have a problem holding aggro in "regular" tanking scenarios. Some stats:
16,000 HP buffed, Uncritable, Uncrushable, +spell hit 50 or less, + spell damage ~250, +hit 0 or close to it. Using a "rotation" of Holy shield -> Consecrate -> JoR (rince repeat as cooldowns allow).

What am I doing wrong? or what stat should I increase (without losing tankability) to generate more threat? Spell damage? Spell hit (although that's a toughie)

You seem to be currently logged out both in holy gear and holy specced, so it's hard to give specific advice. That said, spell damage will give you the most bang for your buck, and if you throw down a [Flask of Blinding Light], [Superior Wizard Oil] and some [Blackened Basilisk] you can add 145 spell power without compromising your gear (You will lose some 800 odd life and a bit of defense from fort flasks and food though).

• Chicken · 01/21/08, 6:05 PM

There's a few possible upgrade paths I can see.

For your trinkets, I'd personally say [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch] and [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] are pretty close to the best trinkets available. Alternatively [Scarab of Displacement] is quite good; it's from Hydross. I actually wish I had that trinket for resist fights, the defense is very handy. Alternatively grabbing a [Battlemaster's Audacity] ain't bad either.

As far as chest pieces go, Nightbane drops [Panzar'Thar Breastplate]; alternatively just going either for Kael (Which would take a while) or Magtheridon (Which is fairly fast in comparison) for a tier chest should work as well. The best chest you can get until a tier 6 chest is probably [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian], available for 75 Badges of Justice.

For legs I'd recommend either [Wrynn Dynasty Greaves], tier 5 legs, or [Unwavering Legguards]. Tier 4 legs are also an option, but I've never really liked them.

With the combination of badges and simply some good gear from it I'd say Karazhan is quite good if your guild can fit it in. Since you mention 3 raiding days a night, perhaps it could be filled in one of the other 4 days in the week? Just see if you can get 10 people together, it'll also be a chance to get some tanking practice.

• zeidrich · 01/21/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Denogran

You seem to be currently logged out both in holy gear and holy specced, so it's hard to give specific advice. That said, spell damage will give you the most bang for your buck, and if you throw down a [Flask of Blinding Light], [Superior Wizard Oil] and some [Blackened Basilisk] you can add 145 spell power without compromising your gear (You will lose some 800 odd life and a bit of defense from fort flasks and food though).

Also, don't forget to judge Crusader. Your spell damage should be higher if you can manage it. If you have to make sacrifices, make sacrifices in terms of avoidance as long as you can without becoming crushable, and then make sacrifices in terms of health.

Typically it is easier to trade health for spell damage in terms of gear available so you may have to do that. Chances are you should be taking some more paladin tank gear instead of warrior tank gear.

LockApologist · 01/21/08, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by ulath7

Sorry, not to take away from your BT discussion, but I'm having a "problem" holding aggro in say Karazhan and don't trust the WoW forums to get a straight answer

I'm currently "training" myself to be a viable OT for Morogrim and other encounters, but I seem to have a problem holding aggro in "regular" tanking scenarios. Some stats:
16,000 HP buffed, Uncritable, Uncrushable, +spell hit 50 or less, + spell damage ~250, +hit 0 or close to it. Using a "rotation" of Holy shield -> Consecrate -> JoR (rince repeat as cooldowns allow).

What am I doing wrong? or what stat should I increase (without losing tankability) to generate more threat? Spell damage? Spell hit (although that's a toughie)

What kind of DPS are you having trouble against? Do they vastly out gear you? 250 +dmg should be fine through starting TK/SSC. I'm assuming you are talking about trash mobs. If not, pop AW on pull and every cooldown.

As for skill usage, here is what I do (my stats: 14.8k hp unbuffed, ~340 + dmg, 36 sp hit, + precision & CE):

SoR -> Shield pull -> Consecrate (typically rank 2, unless I know it's important to lock aggro (i.e. AoE pull) or I'm going to get enough dmg in to replace the mana used) just before first would reach you. This gets a tick on the mobs sooner.
JoR
HS
repeat SoR/JoR & HS till dead. Unless there are 4+ mobs alive by the time Consecrate refreshes, I don't usually re-consecrate.

This maintains ~600 tps, which should allow around 950 sustained DPS. When more threat is needed, SoCr and TPS goes up significantly (usually 800ish).

Boss mobs, I spam R2 consecrate or higher as mana allows.

Maybe your problem is people opening early or poor target selection. If you get feared/stunned/knockdown a lot, it hurts your aggro in multi mob pulls. Take the pulls to Attumen. You get knocked down, which prevents blocks = less aggro.

• zeidrich · 01/21/08, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

Out of curiousity, how do you handle P1 with a threat trinket? Admittedly I still have the T4 helm (do. not. ask.), but I was getting hit pretty regularly, and could not tank him for more than maybe 5-6 fixates, and that's with 2 avoidance trinkets. We really didn't want to use more than 3 'tank' suited people (one of the primary tanks has full S2/heavy S3, so just wore that with a shield for the stamina), but we found ourselves having to ask a pally to step up for a fixate or two before he went down, and it's not like we often reached the third enrage. I'm very surprised to hear that you can afford the trinket slot for Icon.

Tank stands in until the first enrage. Keep sheild block or Holy Shield up constantly and you should only take 300 or so damage per hit if I'm not mistaken.

First enrage, rogue steps in, takes fixate and uses evasion. Tanks for duration of enrage.

Second tank stands in until enrage. Shield Block or Holy Shield.

Second enrage, rogue steps in, evasion tanks.

If he's not dead by now, a bear steps in. Tank gear or not doesn't really matter.

Third enrage, if you actually get here, hopefully you have a third rogue, otherwise improvise. He should be dead by now or chances are you probably wont have the dps to get through p3 anyways.

Keeping up shield block or holy shield really minimizes the amount of damage you take. If you're taking too much damage, you may think about putting on more shield block value.

Damnathor · 01/21/08, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Yenadar

Just a note about this... I HIGHLY recommend getting Figurine of the Colossus

I use it for grinding and soloing ZG bosses, but on a fight where I need to hold aggro on 10 mobs, I'm not exactly worried about my healing. If I die due to lack of heals on ghouls/aboms/fiends, that's not because I had a spell damage trinket on - it's because 1: healers suck, 2: I'm undergeared or 3: some other effect happened (abom stun, then get crushed or hit a lot or necros target me and beat my face in with shadowbolts)

LockApologist · 01/21/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

There's a few possible upgrade paths I can see.

For your trinkets, I'd personally say [Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch] and [Darkmoon Card: Vengeance] are pretty close to the best trinkets available. Alternatively [Scarab of Displacement] is quite good; it's from Hydross. I actually wish I had that trinket for resist fights, the defense is very handy. Alternatively grabbing a [Battlemaster's Audacity] ain't bad either.

As far as chest pieces go, Nightbane drops [Panzar'Thar Breastplate]; alternatively just going either for Kael (Which would take a while) or Magtheridon (Which is fairly fast in comparison) for a tier chest should work as well. The best chest you can get until a tier 6 chest is probably [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian], available for 75 Badges of Justice.

For legs I'd recommend either [Wrynn Dynasty Greaves], tier 5 legs, or [Unwavering Legguards]. Tier 4 legs are also an option, but I've never really liked them.

With the combination of badges and simply some good gear from it I'd say Karazhan is quite good if your guild can fit it in. Since you mention 3 raiding days a night, perhaps it could be filled in one of the other 4 days in the week? Just see if you can get 10 people together, it'll also be a chance to get some tanking practice.

Seconded.

If you want a stam trinket that is cheaper than the Darkmoon cards, the engi trinkets are good or the fully upgraded Netherwing trinket are both 45 stam.

I'd also recommend the badge boots [Sabatons of the Righteous Defender] over battlescar. The badge belt is also a minor upgrade, imo. Unless you are riding the uncrushable line already (I didn't check).

wintermuteCF · 01/21/08, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Karazhan

I run at least one ZA a week, as well as a Karazhan. This also nets me ~33 badges a week, which will probably end up getting put towards the pants/legs. In addition to the ~20 or so I have now, I'm hoping that I'll be able to pick up a new chest or legs from badges in a week or two.

I'm working on a DMC:V to replace the Violet Badge, and the Scarab might be a welcome addition if we can run SSC. Ring upgrades seem to be from Morogrim (Sundered Souls) or TK Trash (Tirisfalen). For the chest, unless Nightbane (edit: ore Zul'jin) cooperates next week, it's probably going to be the badge one, as we have no interest in doing Mag, and we'll probably skip Kael for a few weeks until we need to key people.

Damnathor · 01/21/08, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by LockApologist

Seconded.

If you want a stam trinket that is cheaper than the Darkmoon cards, the engi trinkets are good or the fully upgraded Netherwing trinket are both 45 stam.

I'd also recommend the badge boots [Sabatons of the Righteous Defender] over battlescar. The badge belt is also a minor upgrade, imo. Unless you are riding the uncrushable line already (I didn't check).

Remember, the best paladin boots drop from Naj'entus, a boss you have on farm.

wintermuteCF · 01/21/08, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Damnathor

Remember, the best paladin boots drop from Naj'entus, a boss you have on farm.

I'm glad you pointed this out. I spec holy for BT, and I think that I've never had a hard look at the paladin-specific tanking drops out of BT (I just happened to pick up the Seekers Wristguards, unexpectedly, last week).

Best belt in the game? Gurtogg, who we'll be working on. Best boots in the game? Naj'entus, who we have on farm. The gauntlets off Teron went to our MT prot warrior, so I'm next in line for them (we dont use warrior offtanks). The ring from Supremus might get competition from druids, and I'm happy to pass it to them, but that's also within striking distance.

I think we may only focus on the upgrades from ZA/Kara/badges, and if we pick up some recruits that need attuning, I'll get stuff from SSC/TK then.

Tauftamir · 01/21/08, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

Out of curiousity, how do you handle P1 with a threat trinket? Admittedly I still have the T4 helm (do. not. ask.), but I was getting hit pretty regularly, and could not tank him for more than maybe 5-6 fixates, and that's with 2 avoidance trinkets. We really didn't want to use more than 3 'tank' suited people (one of the primary tanks has full S2/heavy S3, so just wore that with a shield for the stamina), but we found ourselves having to ask a pally to step up for a fixate or two before he went down, and it's not like we often reached the third enrage. I'm very surprised to hear that you can afford the trinket slot for Icon.

While my Tankadin Alt will likely never set foot in Black Temple my Warrior is the Main Tank of my Guild so I can give you a tip I haven't seen mentioned in the thread:

When you are on the ramp before RoS, there is a period where you will drop out of combat before you run down to the Reliquary itself. You can use this period (if you are fast) to quickly apply a [Greater Ward of Shielding] and give you 4000 points of damage absorption right off the bat.
I also have our Prot Paladin bless me with Sanctuary, and make sure your Warriors are keeping up Thunderclap and Demoralizing Shout.
If you begin to drop low on health, while Last Stand isn't an option for you, [Shadowmoon Insignia] and [Nightmare Seed] can be used to great effect to allow you to tank the phase for a bit longer.
Provided you use the Shielding you really can get away with using any sort of gearing.

Typically in my threat gear, I would have sufficient health to tank up to the first enrage, which is evasion tanked by a Rogue, and most of the remaining time left before he's been killed and re-enters the Reliquary.

• Snowy · 01/22/08, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Deth

Wow I always thought I was smoking something when I felt righteous wasn't doing it. Anyone else sometimes feel like their threat drops considerably for no reason?

I usually noticed it more when I zoned with the buff or if I tried to cast it right after I zoned. Now just as a habit I recast righteous fury every time I zone and about a minute after the instance load.

I'm really hoping this is just my complete imagination.

Just going to chime in on this -- has anyone else noticed a pattern to this at all? Imagine my surprise when at Prince, my >500 spell damage RF'ed MD'ed self gets aggro pulled off by a warlock in half greens less than 15 seconds into the fight. It was kinda embarassing to flawlessly tank an entire Hyjal run then almost wipe at Prince due to an aggro pull. :P