Draegan

Quick gear question. At what point of advancement do you start taking off random tank plate gear and find gear that appropriately itemized with defense and spell damage with other avoidance stats? I've been doing some progression planning this morning and I see much of this gear is around T5 and above (with the gear from 2.4 notwithstanding). Is this correct? I'm still wrestling my mind around tanking stats and how they all work together.

Looking for a guild.

 

◊ Cathela

I found T5 was the point at which spelldamage + tanking stat gear started becoming common. Prior to that you're basically limited to the Justicar set (the quality of which is pretty uneven). These days you can probably smooth things out a bit with badge purchases, though.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Dragonwing

As stated before, the gear you intend on accumulating solely depends on two things

- what role your presently active act in your raiding/unraiding status
- what special situations will call for you to change that particular status to something special

Given those two standards, your going to look at four primary "situational standards"

--- AoE tank / Trash mob role ---



The first of these standards would be what were known "best" for, and that is for AoE tanking and burning through trash mobs, this being due to our large threat output with proper itemization, and our capability to maintain so many mobs in a nice small clean radius. For this type of status, these are going to be your primary statistics.
- Block value
- Stamina
- Spell damage

The reason for this is, you want to take damage, because concencrate is an expensive spell, and if your running into single trash mobs and judging and spamming high threat spells, you want to mitigate as much damage as you can- while still intaking some to an extent (whereas with a boss you find yourself trying to avoid damage altogether), you want high stamina to provide a much easier to heal health pool, so taking even large sums of damage from multiple mobs in early tanking stages with low block value is not painful, and of course spell damage to frontload as much threat as possible in order to provide for the fastest and easiest clear.

--- MT role ---

In this kind of situation, your primarily looking for stacking stamina / avoidance / Block value (the first two are interchangeable if you consider that in order of priority, some tanks stack a bunch of one or the other). Although threat is important, it's a whole lot easier to wait a few seconds for the tank to generate some threat before attacking than it is to go all out and healers have to take chunks of mana to keep him up (in compensation for lack of avoidance or stamina sacrificed for additional threat).

--- Heroics misc nonraiding ---

For this sort of situation, becomining uncrushable is not required, and your best bet is to look for a moderate amount of avoidance stamina and block value. Your not neccesarily forced to stack anything in particular, and as being a "MT" in 5 mans and such puts in a situation where any of the three benefit you in different places (as your tanking trash, bosses, casters, etc) you'll find that any of the three really help. The important thing is to make sure your pushing your 490 defense for crit immunity, although anything past that is not neccesary for anything "special" , it certainly does benefit your avoidance a good sum, so defense is always good.

--- OT / Special tank ---

Your the person that takes Gruuls offhits, tanks the last add on Mag, still does the AoE stuff on A'lar, morogrim, Solarian, Akama, second highest hp in supremus, do phase 3 RoS... etc etc... you get it. your not the big dude, but your right up there. This is always the most contraversial thing, and ideally, you need to carry multiple sets of gear, and tend to be the most diverse tank in the guild, why? Because you need to do everything the main tank is doing, and in Offtank situations (like gruul) do so without the benefit of threat accumulation of things such as holy shield ret aura and sanctuary. Primary gear will generally never be consistent, and a semi-mix. 2-3 pieces of something like T4-T5-T6 , or badge spell gear (god don't get the chestpiece, please), a few pieces with high amounts of avoidance ( like the new badge chest (don't feel like linking) ) , akama leggings, boots of elusion as examples. And of course, an extremely high amount of stamina. I would keep some pieces with block value for switching up with AoE pieces, but generally, stamina is going to be your primary attibute, followed by avoidance (and I wouldn't interchange that for an OT), then spell damage, then block value.

So that's my thinking, anywho. As far as the spell damage stuff goes, i'd advise sticking to the "Warrior gear" and throwing a spell gem or two.. or a spell enchant gloves/weapon and stick with that until you see badge loot or T5. Prolly the best way to go if you need the threat.

 

Draegan

Fantastic write up, thanks. I had all the basics floating around my head. Having not tanked as a Paladin in any raids as of yet I still had some uncertainties to which gear sets were good for what, how avoidance, block, uncrittable, uncrushable, spelldamage all mingled together.

Just what a noob Paltank needs to begin to understand how all the stats work together and where the emphasis is in priority given the situation. I appreciate it.

Looking for a guild.

 

• Chicken

Mind if I copy this for the article?

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ Oggie

A note on the 'god don't get the BP' I'm about 95% sure Dragonwing was saying don't get the new badge BP, as the old one is quite good.

 

ederick

Just wondering what other paladins threat gen are compared to mine in my level of gear and progression. Currently we're 5/5 Hjyall and 4/9 BT. On most mobs i can easily sustain 900-1000tps and on the faster attacking mobs i jump up significantly.

 

Leonardwood

I tried to skim the forum and see if this has been answered, but theres way too much info here now.
I was discussing Tankadins with the guild leader of a 9/9 BT guild (I think they just downed twins in Sunwell, but w/e), and a question came up that I didnt know the answer to.

Is it possible for a tankadin to tank phase two of RoS? The deaden would definatly make it a bitch, but is it possible? Has anyone done it?

(My guild is still 3/9 in BT, so I really have no RoS experience to go off)

 

◊ Oggie

Quite possible, I know someone who has done it.

It's about the silliest thing you could ever do, mind you.

 

• Chicken

If your guild has the DPS to manage getting through phase 2 of RoS without the extra damage a reflected Deaden gives it's entirely possible. It's unlikely your guild will have that amount of DPS when learning RoS though.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Leonardwood

You know a paladin tank who has done this? Thats all I wanted to know.
The argument was whether or not it COULD be done. I insist that a paladin CAN tank any boss in the game, even though a warrior might be able to do it better. The other guy keeps trying to come up with bosses we cant tank. RoS was the only one he came up with I couldnt answer.

If possible, could I get the guy who did it's name and server? I want to shove this one down his throat too :P

Mind you I still have no intention of trying it, looks like it would be retarded difficult.

 

kalbear

Meh. Whenever that argument comes up, I ask when the last time they tanked Krosh. Or Leo in his demon form (which amusingly enough a paladin can actually do and without ridiculous difficulty).

There are plenty of fights where a paladin is disadvantaged compared to a warrior; Gruul, Archimonde, Maiden all suck in one way or another. There are plenty of fights where a paladin is advantaged. Does it really matter that a paladin tank can't reasonably tank RoS phase 2?

Anyway, talk to Bluerage over at Mannoroth, who claims this. I don't see why it wouldn't be true, but it's certainly true you couldn't do it as a progression kill.

 

Dragonwing

Of course. Feel free to add and remove as you feel necessary as well, as I would never go as far to say that all of those statements were perfect.

And yes. I feel the new Badge chest is quite useful for the amount of spell hit and damage it offers, however, not an even balance between it's threat and the tanking statistics that it offers. In comparison- [Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate] to [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian] to [Chestplate of Stoicism] You can clearly see you have gear that would ideally benefit you on different levels. Although it appears as if the new badge chest would be great for trash and AoE tanks, in my opinion, 25 spell damage and 34 spell it is not worth throwing away for 38 dodge. Now, if that were all there were to it you might be willing to sacrifice the avoidance for the difference in threat, but there's more.

Take the two pieces

[Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate] [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian]
now lets gem them
as in a fashion to say
we wanted to balance
the new chest with a
good tanking stability
or the old to a better
threat stability, and see
what is better.

One slot
[Solid Star of Elune]
+2 dodge socket bonus
resulting stats:
-90 stamina
-2 dodge
-26 defense
-34 spell hit
-60 spell damage
-1765 armor
One slot

Three slots
[Veiled Noble Topaz]
[Veiled Noble Topaz]
[Solid Star of Elune]
+6 stam socket bonus
Resulting stats:
-78 stamina
-22 defense
-8 spell hit
-45 spell damage
-38 dodge
-1607 armor

Now, in comparison, you immediately look at Shattrath as superior because it already has more stamina spell damage and spell hit; however, with the difference of going with Shat, you look at trading 36 dodge (2 dodge from socket bonus subtracted) for 12 stamina, 26 spell hit, 15 spell damage, 4 defense, and 158 armor.

the survival end of that is
12 stamina
4 defense
158 armor
2 dodge

which you can clearly see you sacrifice about right on (about .2 avoidance on this little difference), whereas that 36 dodge is giving you about 1.8% avoidance. And considering dodge is your second best choice for stacking avoidance (shield block being the first) then I would say as a MT or OT it's a given Stoic would be the better buy, And that even if you were a Trash/AoE tank, that Assuming you'd have excess to epic gems (or buy them from the AH) at some point in time, that the stoic guardian piece gives you more room to upgrade and customize your direction (as to threat, stamina, or avoidance) and in greater amounts (as it has 3 gem slots that you could put epic pieces opposed to the one available in shatt).

I personally would take the stoic piece and stam gem it for trash tankng, unless your having an extremely rough time tanking trash.

What I feel blizzard fails to recognize is that shatt's chestpiece WOULD be great for an AoE / Trash tank, however, due to the fact those tanks generally are not found tanking bosses, the need for spell hit is quite lower, as your generally fighting 70-72 elites, so well within reasonable range to stack a minute amount of spell hit (if any) with no problem. And with the cost of avoidance, it is not a viable chest for any MT or OT planning on doing 73 boss mobs.

I by no means mean to assume it is not a good piece circumstancially, especially if your well geared, and are just looking to sub out some pieces for quicker easier pulls in raid trash, or in burning heroics by mass AoE tanking... for that sort of thing, I would agree that the Shat piece would be a better buy. But for most paladin tanks, I expect to see the Stoic chestguard or the new warrior one... as it's perfect for high end tanking.

It has been done, it is possible, but it is by no means more convenient. It would be like using a warrior to round up murlocs on morogrim... it has certainly be done. But it is not nearly as effective as it was clearly intended to be easier for somebody else.

 

vorda

Not to mention Felmyst, a fight near impossible if you dont have a prot pala.

 

◊ Oggie

Let's say 'really REALLY shouldn't' rather than couldn't on progression. Deaden is nice and all, but due to the extra returns on the SA from the deadens I'd imagine your threat would be pretty unreal, allowing a higher dps burn period. Once you're OOM you're shafted of course, but *shrug*

I'll try to remember which tankadin I spoke to who'd done it.

My guild's yet to kill Leo without me tanking him Demon (due to warlock connection issues and attendence spottiness). It's not that hard, and being able to bubble two full stacks per kill is quite nice. Not to mention being able to use a shield toss or a judgement to get him back on you so the physical-side tanks can pull him off you.

 

Anedris

Illidan has been tanked (start to end) by a druid using warriors to intervene the shears. Kael'thas has been tanked by a druid. A flame of Azzinoth has been tanked (successfully) by a warlock. We had a RoS kill where about all but one deaden were kicked by a rogue applicant... so it's all possible IF you severely outgear the encounter.

 

Morgain

I have a question about librams, I'm sorry if it has been answered I tried to look through the thread.

At the moment I am using [Libram of Repentance] but I actually don't need it anymore to stay uncrushable. Without it equipped I'm still at 105%. So I was wondering if it is worth for me to spend 20 badges on the [Libram of Divine Purpose] ?

I also would like to know if the [Blue's Greaves of the Righteous Guardian] are worth the 75 badges when I already have [Jungle Stompers]

Our guild has been abit unlucky in terms of tanks leaving the game etc. so I'm actually currently our MT and thus do alot of single target tanking, unless it's totally stupid like on Morogrim where I ofc take the murlocks.

Thanks for the help.

 

Maccam

I dropped [Libram of Repentance] for [Libram of Divine Purpose] as soon as I could and stay uncrushable. I still have it in my bags and use it for some gear configurations (mostly resist gear).

Personally I'd stick with [Jungle Stompers]. At the moment, I don't see any reason to buy [Blue's Greaves of the Righteous Guardian].

 

Raunwynn

I keep going back to Libram of Repentance every time i think i have come up with a way to drop it.
That 5% chance to block is so large, it lets you adjust other pieces of your gear or talent point placement in a way that is more effective than equipping the spell damage libram.
I recently dropped Deflection in favor of Improved Seal of Righteousness and the Libram of Repentance filled that 5% crush gap for me.

 

ederick

I can't see dropping deflection as being a good move. 5% complete physical avoidance for 5% block seems pretty bad. The extra threat just isn't worth it. Especially when you consider you'll get slightly more threat from the swing timer haste after parrying.

 

• Snowy

I can see doing that if you want a 20/41/0 or some kind of hybrid holy/prot spec that allows you to heal better. That would be the case if you never, ever MT'ed and primarly just served as a trash tank who switches to heal on bosses. I can't advocate doing that for any other reason though, the 5% straight avoidance vs bosses is just too big.

Paladin: Pyla
Mage: Pylah

 

Raunwynn

I have been trying to reduce my avoidance in favor of blocking since our group has been running ZA. I am probably spoiled by excellent healing though. I feel like my character works better when I block a hit than when I avoid it. I generate threat from Holy Shield, mana from taking damage and allow Reckoning a chance to proc. With Holy Shield up I am currently blocking around 70% of incomming hits and dodging, parrying and being missed by about 30%. A strong player in my group frowns upon my build and gear choice, but we clear the third timed event consistently in t4/za/badge gear so it cant be that terrible. My threat is outstanding and I consistently contribute 420+ dps over the course of the instance in a tanking role.

The only boss in Zul'Aman that I do not tank directly is Jan'alai.

 

Dragonwing

This is actually quite viable, as the more dodge and parry you acquire the more block you push, providing you have a lot of block value... I often find myself eliminating a large scale of avoidance gear, and find myself at about 750 block value, and uncrushable without holy shield up, with that being the case, running anything Kara and below is significantly easier. Technically it's rougher on the healer, but in comparison to how boring it is to heal a full avoidance tank in kara, it actually balances out your threat to damage intake, as well as the healers boredom to doing something role.

Personally, I advise to any tank, always keep a nice set of shield block / block value gear on the side, because as you progress, the line of zones you pass (Kara to gruul, gruul to mag, mag to ssc, etc) will increase, so eventually you'll be digging out old gear to run SSC/TK after your overgeared in your sunwell loot. That may be slightly exaggerated, none the less, I do advise doing something similar as downgrading is quite common if you do anything more than raid progression.

P.S. Stacking shield block high enough to push uncrushable without holy shield also eliminates that ever painful "second gap" with holy shield, as it's no longer required. That being the case, I find tanking lower end raid instances substantially easier altogether.

 

vorda

Regardless of loosing out on a lot of TPS by not using HS, I'm pretty sure the gear to become passive crush immune as a paladin without major trade offs (gemming for dodge/defense, using Figurine of the Colossus, etc) does not exist.

 

◊ Oggie

I could not disagree with you more about avoidance-gear being easier to heal than a more block heavy set. If you mean technically they need to heal more often, or have to return more total HP to you that's one thing, but I can't recall the last time outside of extreme circumstances where steady incoming damage killed me. Bursts after avoidance kill me trivially three times as often, because the healers slack off more (this isn't their fault, it's hard to keep pre-loading heals and canceling them for extended periods, the temptation is to offheal). I avoid to save healer mana and these days healers are drowning in it.

I also disagree with the person who thought dropping deflection is a good idea. While I concede that steadier incoming damage is a great thing to have, there is enough nasty spike damage, and the Deflection value is actually more than 1% avoidance per point (considerably, since it is an increasing scale). So the general solution is to use a lot of block rating gear with decent amount of block value, removing parry/dodge from other pieces. This makes a hell of a drastic difference in the incoming damage curve, and has the only downside of something like HSH not taking near enough damage to maintain threat.