So the actual question is the same question...

Assuming the same 300 base.

(300*1.3*1.1)=429 or 129 extra
300*(1+0.1+0.3)=420 or 120 extra

You used the exact same formulas as I did, just stated them differantly ;D

But at least we agree that's the question we'd like answered.

Working on the reputation on the test server myself to test this out, but if someone beats me to the punch please post it.

The claim that POJ increases spell misses ( which is beleived by most ) isnt actually true, this ability only works against PVP targets. Unless this has been changed without my knowledge it has been this way since the talent was changed

Speaking as someone that has it, POJ does actually work to help resist abilities in PvE. However the chance seems lower than expected; ever since I specced it I've seen full resists on abilities like High Warlord Naj'entus's Tidal Burst where I'd never seen one before I had it.

It still works out worse on overall damage reduction than Spell Warding does however.

Things don't always appear in the combat log in the same order they happen on the server, and you can get weird effects where the server reports your death first, and then doesn't bother reporting the enfeeble that came right before it.

I've personally experieced at least one case where as a tank I got enfeebled on the transition from phase 1 to phase 2 even when I've got a clear threat lead, and I've heard secondhand reports of it happening several more times.

So basically: (a) enfeeble bugs out sometimes, and (b) don't rule it out just because the combat log doesn't show it.

I will concur that this is a definite issue -- albiet rare, it can happen and ironically happened last night. Chalk it up to Prince being wonky and move on.

I'm not sure it is only Prince; I think there is an issue with some other Karazhan bosses as well. (I was tanking Illhoof the other day on my Paladin alt, and had Omen showing me at a ~25-30% threat lead over the hunters when Illhoof decided he was bored of me, went and one-shotted a hunter and then a shaman healer.) The issue may just may be more noticeable on Prince because of enfeeble.

Just out of curiosity, does enfeeble not hit his current target or not hit the highest threat target? If someone is operating at, say, 105% threat but hasn't yet pulled agro, would that cause a tank enfeeble?

All in all, I wish I could figure out what the RF bug is and fix it, as the glitchiness is somewhat annoying.

Your threat on Illhoof can seem lower than it is because the threat from your mana gains from Spiritual Attunement gets divided by the amount of aggro targets. With the amount of adds in the Illhoof encounter, that basically means that Spiritual Attunement doesn't generate much threat at all, but Omen still attributes the normal amount of threat for it. Our hunters also constantly complain about Feign not properly resetting aggro despite the threat meter showing otherwise, and them using it as normal, that might be a factor too.

Though him attacking a resto shaman after that is pretty strange. Healing threat is always the easiest to outaggro speaking as a Paladin, and that is even more the case on an encounter with many adds like Illhoof (For the same reason as Spiritual Attunement threat being less).

As far as I know Enfeeble at least ignores the target with highest threat; which doesn't necessarily mean his current target. However, the ability is also bugged as far as I know that it ignores it's standard targeting rules if cast during a phase shift.

I'm quite intrigued by this bug, mostly because I haven't seen any direct evidence of it myself. Sure, I'll "randomly" lose aggro at times, but most often it's easily attributed to a mistake I made or a DPS blindly mashing buttons with zero regard to threat. Hunters are extremely prone to pulling aggro simply because they have no inherent threat reduction from talents, and paladins generally give them might and wisdom before salv (Feign Death lol), so mabye that has something to do with your experience. I've run into a number of hunters who simply beat the hell out of their Steady Shot macro then blame me for lack of threat generation, which is always a fun conversation to have.

At any rate, if you think you've experienced this bug, there are a few questions to be asked before we can have any hope of identifying the problem.

* Which fight was it?
* If you were fighting a specific add, which one was it?
* What was your general spell selection used to maintain threat generation?
* What threat meter are you using?
* What threat meter is the aggro puller using?
* Are the two of you using the same version?
* Are the two of you using the most current version?
* How much of a threat lead did you have before the person pulled?
* Most importantly, did you actually have Righteous Fury buffed for the entire duration of the fight?

TBH, I'm more inclined to trust Blizzard's threat mechanics over a mod that someone has created to estimate how much threat is actually on a given target. That's not to say that RF is infalliable, as it is certainly possible there is a bug in Blizzard's code, but I'm going to be far more suspicious of 3rd party programs and human error when it comes to tracking down this sort of problem.

PS - In regards to Feign Death, it frequently needs a second to actually perform the threat wipe (client-server latency issue, perhaps). Having a hunter myself, I've run into cases where the FD cooldown was used and I went back to shooting, only to pull aggro almost immediately. If your hunters frequently have this problem, have them wait a second before breaking feign before they start shooting again.

Illhoof.

I was tanking Illhoof. The agro dump actually came when everyone *should* have been DPSing chains, oddly enough.

Exorcism, R2 Consecrate, Holy Shield, Seal/Judgment of Righteousness. On chains, I swapped to chains long enough to drop a judgment. I would have been going R6 Consecrate, but Illhoof doesn't hit hard enough to sustain that.

Omen.

Unsure. However, 90% of our guild is on Omen, so that's my guess.

Most likely close, but not the same. Seems like there's a new Omen out every day, almost, so we're all in various degrees of updatedness. I keep mine up-to-date within 2-3 weeks of the release; not sure about the hunters in question.

Hard to say in terms of numbers, because I had not checked specifically. At about 30-45 seconds into the fight, I checked in at a 25% or so threat lead above the closest DPS, which was the hunter. At my TPS (which admittedly is not that high), that should have been around an 7k-9k threat lead.

The threat pull happened on a demon chains a few seconds after I had last checked threat. I switched to the chains to drop a judgment and Illhoof deagroed me and ran at the hunter. I can't say 100% that the hunter did not do an insane string of crits just prior to the chains, but it seemed pretty odd. It's more likely that I just wasn't as far ahead as Omen reported me to be.

Come to think of it, I wonder if Omen reports damage done to imps via consecrate as threat for me on Illhoof? If so, that would cause a lot of padding in my threat numbers that really isn't there. (We have a warlock "tanking" the imps, but even so I am damaging - and agroing - some of them with consecrate.)

Yes. We had a weird wipe just prior to the pull due to someone getting too close, so I had a fresh Righteous Fury on me.

First, in regards to the current thread of discussion:

1: I've seen the enfeeble bug (tank instantly dieing) on a warrior during that fight. We made fun of him for weeks

2: The threat issue. This is not just a paladin issue. Twice in one night during Kael'thas attempts a few months back, our warrior prot tank who has never had threat issues and has been one of the best warriors on the server, both pre-bc and now, lost aggro on Kael'thas. Not just lost aggro, killed a stupid hunter or mage, and went back to him. Even after he went back in to melee range of KT, he went straight down the aggro list, even chasing down healers. It's a game bug, not a Paladin bug.

3: Threat meters suck. Our guild uses them on Bloodboil only and nothing else. They are inaccurate due to it being a user mod using guesstimate numbers, they are a crutch players start to rely on and then use as a defense (but the meter said I was ok!), and for me, it takes up more room on my screen Players should know their own dps, know their tanks TPS, especially in high-end guilds.

Edit #1: In response to KRIS about his gear level, tanking in hyjal etc.
Armory me. I still have blue bracers, and kara gear mostly. My shield is the Crest of Shatar. My trinket is still Adamantite. My helm? /sigh My chest? it's heroic gear. My shoulders/gloves? T4. I tank all 4 trash waves hyjal, lots of trash in BT, can tank RoS p3, OT'd Mother, and am currently tanking 1 of the Illidari council with no problems. Paladins are a lot different than warriors. And my healers rock ^^

Looking at your armory, you have put way too much emphasis on spell damage, and I notice you still have healing items as part of your tanking gear. You are crushable and critable, and that should be your #1 priority. Drop all that spell damage stuff, socket dodge/defense to get 490 defense and 97% avoidance. 618 spell damage is what you need to hold aggro in late-stage bt, not karazhan. As well, when you don't have 490 defense, I question why you would put points in to Reckoning over the extra 4 defense.


Going a little OT to the previous threads.

So, we killed Mother for the first time last week. Really easy, just sat next to some druid bear thingie and pushed some heal thingie in my tanking gear. With only 2 bosses left in the game until 2.4, we're getting pretty excited.

My question/thought/whatever is the following: how important is Ardent Defender? And I'm talking overall, not just MT but trash tanks etc. I know it's been discussed before, but for five talent points, it's saved me twice 9 weeks of tanking as a paladin. It seems it could go to something more useful, such as imp might (for the raid) or something like that. Any thoughts?

Haha, no no no. That is not my tank gear, I completely forgot I'd logged in that last night. That's a "how much spell damage can I squeeze out" set that I use to rush lowbie friends through SM/ZF and such (the answer, FYI, was 666). Try it again now.

This is my "normal" tanking set. I'm uncrittable and just shy of uncrushable. I do need full buffs to reach uncrushable in this set, but I have a couple other non-pally tank pieces I can use for 102.9 when needed.

You asked why I've put two points in Reckoning rather than avoidance talents. I find 4% is my magic number to have Reck up in nearly every trash pull. It gives me the threat boost needed on the first assist target, and then I've got a sizeable threat lead on the other mobs.