I'd make BoW your first blessing, not your second. It'll help more than the Kings will. Also seal wisdom if you can, and try and have people go easy on the DPS or wait on AoE for a bit.

Downrank things as well. Consecrate rank 4 still gets most of your SD bonus and does a good amount of threat.

But the most important thing is to drink whenever you can. Drink immediately after each pull. Drink before each pull if there is any time. 5 seconds of restoration is better than nothing.

Well it all depends on your group composition...

this was our today's bear run, we had 5 minutes left when the lynx was down... when i tank ZA, I'm tanking all mobs besides the 2 double bear pulls before the bear lord, the 2 tempests and the adds on malacrass. And i need an offtank for bear, dragonhawk und lynx of course ;-)

Here is our WWS from today: Wow Web Stats.
I chugged 3 mana pots and of course judging wisdom on every boss helps alot.

I tank the bear run in ZA gear (something like 350 spell damage with weapon oil, less than 5k mana pool) and usually do the entire thing without drinking once. (Caveat: we use three healers, so I'm not wholly sure if some of these things would be wise with less healing power available.) Points of note:

- I tank all but one mob in every pull, and sometimes I simply tank everything. When a caster is being killed first I just generally hit it with my shield throw and then ignore it - it'll be dead before it does any meaningful damage to anyone.
- I judge wisdom (and sometimes seal it as well) on the second or third target to be killed, and hit that mob while spamming consecration and holy shield. Once two-ish mobs are dead I stop actively generating threat (since if I held the second mob against the DPS for the length of its health I must have enough aggro on the third and fourth mobs to not lose them while they're killed) and just regenerate mana with SoW/JoW.
- Almost everything is stunnable and tauntable, and almost nothing is going to one-shot your DPS. It's often not worth trying to keep ahead of the DPS, just stun the mob when someone pulls and then taunt it when the stun wears off. It'll probably be dead once those 9 seconds are up.

If you're having mana issues on the ZA trash even with a shadowpriest, my advice would be to swap out some of your mitigation gear for threat gear. The trash doesn't hit very hard at all (with the exception of the bear mounts) so you're quite safe swapping in a bunch of spell damage gear. It's really a win/win situation as your DPS won't be threat capped at all on trash, and you'll have a nice supply of mana. Switch to your mitigation gear only for the bosses.

This may be a silly thing to mention, but remember that trash cannot crush, so maintaining uncrushability is not an issue. By tanking ZA trash in the same gear I use for heroics (and with a shadow priest) I will pot at most twice on a run, once for dragonhawk trash and once for lynx trash, and both of those are probably unnecessary - I simply like to pot *before* I have any trouble from being LOM, not while I'm actually in trouble.

I'm new to ZA as a prot-paladin, but for trash it might be an idea to switch gear to get the 2-bonus of our dungeon 3-set (15% lower manacosts for consecration).
With this downgearing you'll get hit a little harder and therefor need to be healed a little more (=> more mana-regen).
And as Lookit said, we don't need to be crush-immun on trash-mobs.

Mana conservation tips:

• You're not a DPS class, and it's OK to drop a few things from your rotation to keep your run moving. If you run out of mana on every pull you're probably spending more mana than you should.
  
• If you're running out of mana, your primary concern needs to be threat:mana efficiency. Thus, your priority for attacks should generally be Seal > Judgement > Holy Shield > Consecration when tanking single targets.
  
• Watch your threat meter and don't spend mana you don't need to. If you have a massive lead over everyone else, just auto-attack and let OO5SR regen kick in.
  
• If your target is first for DPS to drop, build threat as normal, using all your tools. After it dies, judge/seal wisdom on any remaining targets.
  
• If your target is NOT first for DPS to drop, judge wisdom on it and remove Consecration from your rotation (maybe drop it once on the pull to ensure aggro, or if you're tanking more than 1 mob). If you're still having mana issues, drop Holy Shield as well. Auto-attack with SoR up generates plenty of threat to keep your target off the healers in low-damage situations like this.
  
• To reiterate an earlier point, stop to drink whenever possible. Even if you only get 5 seconds of drink time in between pulls, every little bit helps.
  
• To reiterate yet another point, BoW > BoK if mana is a concern. If you're running out of mana, that means you're not taking much damage, so the added HP and dodge from kings aren't necessary. You can always switch blessings when you get to the boss.

Alternately, I've found that chain chugging Super Mana Potions - while a little ham-fisted - works marvelously when you don't really feel like putting in any extra effort while working on your 25th bear mount.

I cannot recommend mana potion injectors highly enough.

Just a quick question.

What sort of stats am i looking for tanking the adds on felmyst? I'm new in my Guild and haven't been to sunwell yet, but the time to step up is coming. I have really only been gearing up in BT/MH and i still have no T6 tokens due to a burst in the lock, priest and paladin section of the guild.

Armory link

thanks

Tanking all the skeletons on an air phase feels like roughly the same incoming damage as a high-DPS Hyjal wave (think with one or two Aboms but without the stun). The difference is that a few healers may be out of position due to vapor trails, a few people will be topping the raid, and everyone is moving to avoid breaths (be careful not to turn your back while doing this unless they're slowed).

I'd prioritize stuff like block value - you really won't have threat issues since the phase is so long, AoE can really wait as long as needed to start.

tanking the skeletons on felmyst really doesn't require that much. I basically did it with unenchanted t5 stuff the first time because our prot/ret paladin got lost. A question I'd have to those who are more experienced than me in tanking is how you handle the tps problem. I hardly manage to reach more than 900 and perhaps about 1200 while having wings up - little bit more on demon mobs of course. Is this the average I should expect or is there some way to improve it ?

With a standard rotation those numbers are pretty much average, but part of the beauty of having tps scale directly with holy dps is you can always put in a little more.

Mind you the tanking concerns survivability along with threat, so as you raise one the other generally declines. The trick is finding the right balance of the two for a particular encounter.

Things like swapping a threat libram like [Libram of Divine Purpose] or [Libram of the Eternal Rest] in for [Libram of Repentance] or [Tome of the Lightbringer] depending on which you use gear wise, and whether you need single target or aoe. Don't forget that you can switch librams in combat, so you can start with threat, and swap to defensive once you have a comfortable threat lead.

A [Drape of the Righteous] is nice to have on hand to swap in for an extra boost when needed.

Use effect spell damage trinkets can also provide a nice burst, especially for JCs with [Figurine - Crimson Serpent] which has the stam and the use in one.

These are just a few examples, but it's always a survival vs. threat balance you can toy with.

Maybe I missed it somewhere but this is my question...

Everyone knows you need 490 def for tanking raid bosses.

Now my paladin is only lvl 62. I recently have Outland gear and defense is poping up like crazy.

How much def should I have for tanking on that level? Or on any level. What is the correct formula?

Maybe I should not care and just kill mobs to get to lvl 70 faster but I think that when tanking you have a responsibility to your group and I wish to take that serious to make the game fun for everyone.

Dendrah, 490 defense is so that you can never be crit by a raid boss (+3, -5.6% chance). It's not really an issue at lower levels, so I wouldn't worry about the crit cap (-5.0% - .2% per level above you on the character sheet).

However, defense is the best avoidance stat there is and you'll want to stack it anyway. There is no point at which defense is worse than dodge or parry rating as long as you have a shield equipped.

Ummm...no. Block isn't an avoidance mechanism. Furthermore, additional defense after uncrushable is worse per point than dodge.

For crit immunity, it's based off the level of your attacker, so it's less if you're in lower level instances:
Also, be aware that being crit in leveling instances is not at all the end of the world. They were designed around tanks that weren't perfectly geared.
Level 60 - 425
Level 61 - 430
Level 62 - 435
Level 63 - 440
Level 64 - 445
Level 65 - 450
Level 66 - 455
Level 67 - 460
Level 68 - 465
Level 69 - 470
Level 70 - 475
Level 71 - 480
Level 72 - 485
Level 73 - 490

That would have been with an experienced (and overgeared?) group though.

As for the skeletons on felmyst: they dont hit for much and once felmyst lifts off you are pretty much the only one taking damage. Picking up the skeletons is alot easier if you dont need any healing though. These days proximity agro and a melee swing/HS charge is all I need I think.

Our healers got so comfortable by me that I actually had to use LoH because noone bothered to be in healing range of me when the second beam decided to target me. (I HATE it when that happends)

Thanks for the answers. Well I'll see to my survivability then and to my aggro making with just "het gouden oog". There is no good translation for it but it mean you know what you're doing and you know what to take in what mesures

The biggest advantage paladins have over other tanks in low level instances is that they can give salvation

I've looked around a bit and found nothing, but feel free to mock me if this info is freely available in some sticky somewhere.

First I'd like to ask, does anyone know how much threat HoJ on it's own causes? A warrior friend told me their stuns caused a lot of threat, so I was wondering if the same was true for HoJ.

Also, as you probably know, a mob that is under the effect of for example polymorph does not build aggro towards anyone. Thus they do not charge the healers when sheep breaks, but goes back to the mage or whoever was first on their aggro list before they got sheeped. Is this also true for stuns, and specifically HoJ? What about stuns in general?

Debuffs cause a token amount of threat when applied: If you body-pull a pack, a Warlock can aggro a mob by placing Curse of Shadows on it, even if that spell does 0 damage. The same would apply to HOJ, but the amount of threat is nothing special, and certainly not substantial.

Your Warrior friend may have been talking about Improved Revenge, which gives Revenge a chance to stun targets. Even in this case, the stun does not cause any additional threat - it's the Revenge itself that does that.

Yes, this is true for stuns (and other CCs) in general. I often tell my Rogue friends to refrain from using Cheap Shot on a mob that I didn't hit with Avenger's Shield.

Just tested this on mobs outside Shattrath with a druid friend providing various levels of wrath spam.


First test:
The druid pulls with ~500 dmg wrath, I stun and crit 750 JoR, and instantly disengage (no autoattack hits or anything else). When stun wears off, the mob runs to me.

Second test:
I open with HoJ (but do no damage) and the druid throws a starfire (max rank). When the stun wears off, the mob runs to the druid.


We also did a couple of tests on how much threat the application of HoJ does, basically HoJ created less threat than a ~250 dmg wrath, but more than a ~100 dmg wrath. In case it matters, I had RF up and the druid was resto with subtlety talent (20%).

So while I do not know how other stuns work in this regard, HoJ definatly does not prevent me from building threat on the mob. It would still prevent me from taking damage and thus depriving me of mana, but that is a different discussion.

The next logical test would be to see if Righteous Defense works on a stunned mob. IE, can you stun, RD, and then go back to what you are doing confident that the mob will run to you when the stun wears off? I would imagine you can't, as RD has a limited duration of effectiveness. However, it would be interesting to find out.