I guess the more important point to me from those stats is that 22% of the damage done was white damage, another 19% was SoR damage. And reckoning procced 10 times in that fight, but there were only 32 extra swings from reckoning recorded. (that's independent of whether it recorded a reckoning proc) Out of 284 melee hits, 32 were reckoning - or about 11.2% more swings. Again roughly, 11.2% of the 41% from SoR and melee means that reckoning caused about 4.61% of the overall damage - which is lower than the 5% boost to damage. However, threat isn't damage, so we need to reduce that.
Hmm, let's take that a bit further.
22% * 1.0 + 19% * 1.9 = 56.1 total non-normalized threat from melee/SoR.
22% * 1.0 + 74% * 1.9 = 140.6 total non-normalized threat from sources that would get the 5% bonus (basically, everything that wasn't nature damage)
11.2% of the 56.1 = 6.32 threat from melee/SoR that was extra from reckoning
140.6 * 5% = 7.03 threat from all sources given a bonus of 1hws
From this, it looks like reckoning does not outperform 1hws in overall threat produced. Now, keep in mind I didn't reduce the reckoning damage by 5% from the loss of 1hws, and I didn't take out the reckoning damage from the total, so these things are slightly off - but at the very least it should be comparable.
I was kinda lumping the "Warriors have over double our Block Value" and "Warriors have more flat% reduction" together, but Illidan's main-hand hits for ~24k before armor and %reduction results in ~600 difference, combined with ~300 more block value that warriors have... it adds up.
Double our block value? 300 more? Under what circumstances do you have <300 BV? I have 457 in pure stamina gear and the warriors in my guild certainly don't have 750-900 in theirs.
If you're referring to stacking for Shear, that's a fairly unique situation that I could understand results in some gimped stats. But as a generalization, "warriors have way more block value" is ludicrous. We have the same talents and fairly similar itemization in that area.
Double our block value? 300 more? Under what circumstances do you have <300 BV? I have 457 in pure stamina gear and the warriors in my guild certainly don't have 750-900 in theirs.
If you're referring to stacking for Shear, that's a fairly unique situation that I could understand results in some gimped stats. But as a generalization, "warriors have way more block value" is ludicrous. We have the same talents and fairly similar itemization in that area.
...you know, I had never actually gone through the parses for exactly how much our warriors block for in "normal" tanking gear. I was basing my numbers off of a comment from our MT about having a "threat" set that gets his Block Value past 700. Since Block Value is a much more important threat-generation stat for Warriors I figured that wasn't much higher than his normal.
Yet again I stand corrected - I block for 420 in my high-avoidance gear, where our MT blocks for 441.
So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.
Let's say you lose 1s, so 10% of the time your holy shield is off because of mistiming. 15% of those times would be crushes that deal 1.5x damage. So basically on the whole fight you take 0.75% more damage due to the 1s delay between holy shields. It's actually a little more since a crush is more than 1.5x of a block but not that much. Now if you reduce the delay to 0.5s you get 1/2 the effect, and on top you'd need to reduce the times when redoubt covered for that hole. Overall total damage taken should be insignificantly bigger, the only problem I would see is with the (vert) rare spike damage, as no matter how rare it is all it needs is to make your HP hit 0 *once* and you're dead. But I really don't see how it can account for "needing more healing" as the extra total healing needed is really nothing.
...you know, I had never actually gone through the parses for exactly how much our warriors block for in "normal" tanking gear. I was basing my numbers off of a comment from our MT about having a "threat" set that gets his Block Value past 700. Since Block Value is a much more important threat-generation stat for Warriors I figured that wasn't much higher than his normal.
Yet again I stand corrected - I block for 420 in my high-avoidance gear, where our MT blocks for 441.
So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.
I can't find where your warrior MT'ed illidan in those parses, so I can't make a direct comparison. However, when you say you're much harder to heal, is just the healers complaining or is there numerical evidence for it? Because it could just be in their heads =P
I'm sure it's harder to heal someone with 1500~ less HP regardless of small amounts of mitigation. Also in current armoried gear there's a difference of about 7% dodge, and our healers definitely noticed such a difference (about 6% dodge) when we changed tanks around on Illidan.
I just tested out JoB on a rogue friend. 3 times used, zero resists while cloak of shadows. Not conclusive evidence but with a 90% chance to resist, you'd think one of them would. Will test more later...seems opening with JoB is going to be my new thing.
So where is all this extra damage coming from? My guess is (on bosses that can crush), the extra crushing blows that sneak through the .5-to-1 second gap where Holy Shield is between cooldown and re-application.
As I know this happens, that small chance of rolling in that 15% crush area when encountering this is small, as the person said above redoubt can fill the whole you can dodge/miss/parry the attack in that second or the boss' swing timer can simply not be back up in that .5 second.
Although I can't say this about the warriors in other guilds the ones in mine will get crushed on average ~4-5 times a fight (whether that's from laziness or somthing else I'm not sure) but I can say I've gone complete clears MT'ing and never getting crushed, so that 'extra' dmg certainly cannot be solely contributed to the CD/Duration of Holy shield.
I just tested out JoB on a rogue friend. 3 times used, zero resists while cloak of shadows. Not conclusive evidence but with a 90% chance to resist, you'd think one of them would. Will test more later...seems opening with JoB is going to be my new thing.
Well, assuming 5% base miss chance (and no +spell hit gear on your part), a rogue with CloS should have a 95% chance to resist spells.
If JoBs could be resisted (and were based off of +spell hit), the chances of 3 hits with that resist rate would be 5% ^ 3, or ~.01%.
Combined with the experience/WWS of raiding BElf paladins, I think that the evidence shows JoB is guaranteed to hit (no resist check, like debuff judgements). That's nice.
Not that it matters for JoB, but spell base miss against someone your level is 4%. Against mobs 1 level above you 5%, 2 levels above you 6% and 3 levels above you or "boss" level mobs 17% (and IIRC every additional level is another 11% base miss). I remember the spell miss against higher levels is different against players, although against equal level the base miss should be the same as against mobs of equal level - 4%.
i have a 0/38/23 build with sanctity aura. any comments on how effective that can be?
In terms of threat it's actually quite a nice build, just getting beaten by a 33/28 build which includes 3 points in vengeance. Though with weapon expertise giving stamina in 2.3 i'm becoming a fan of a 0/40/21 build. It means sacrificing precision/reckoning/argent defender/avengers shield but means you get crusade and sanctity aura. It all depends on the situation really.
In terms of threat it's actually quite a nice build, just getting beaten by a 33/28 build which includes 3 points in vengeance. Though with weapon expertise giving stamina in 2.3 i'm becoming a fan of a 0/40/21 build. It means sacrificing precision/reckoning/argent defender/avengers shield but means you get crusade and sanctity aura. It all depends on the situation really.
There's definitely situations I can see that build being powerful. I'm pretty sure that if you don't need to aggro up to three adds solidly at any point in your tanking career, you'll be getting more threat out of Sanctity Aura; and that for a lower mana cost as well. For raiding in particular Avenger's Shield isn't really needed outside of a very few fights in-game; I'd hate to be without it for tanking at Shade of Akama for example, though I'm certain I could manage without with some effort.
The downside really is in the fact that you lose Ardent Defender and Reckoning; Ardent Defender is most likely not worth speccing for if you can only put 2 points in it. I was thinking in this direction myself: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (If you take out the points in Ret, get Avenger's Shield, and put the 'basic 20' in Holy you'll get the build I'm probably taking next patch)
From a pure threat point of view in any situation this build is going to be pretty strong. It'll actually sport ~19% more damage (and thus threat) on practically everything you'll face while raiding. I'd say it's also got good survivability in a single hard-hitting target situation. It'll be less good than a build with Ardent Defender at taking damage in a situation with a lot of smaller faster attacks though, and it also lacks Reckoning which is a nice threat boost in a situation in which you're tanking a lot of mobs and are also expected to outaggro single target DPS on a specific mob.
Not that it matters for JoB, but spell base miss against someone your level is 4%. Against mobs 1 level above you 5%, 2 levels above you 6% and 3 levels above you or "boss" level mobs 17% (and IIRC every additional level is another 11% base miss). I remember the spell miss against higher levels is different against players, although against equal level the base miss should be the same as against mobs of equal level - 4%.
I was under the impression that the base chance to resist was 5%, but that you could only negate 4% of that (leaving a unremovable 1% chance to miss/resist a spell)
You can actually only negate 3% of that. I think on another thread someone actually quoted a blizzard post stating resist chances of mobs of your level and above (4% equal, 5% +1, 6% +2 and then 11% more for each additional level against mobs and 7% more for each additional level against players - they don't actually say it's per level but in the level ranges they were listing it was following this rule, and trying to kill the elemental that spawms when you make spellcloth a couple times with my 60 priest was hard enough to make it seem true that I had 6%+8X11%=94% miss).
I have just started tanking, but I thought I would throw in my rotation:
If I can pull with Holy shield vs Crushable.
Activate Seal of Righteousness >>> Avenging Wrath (does not use Global Cooldown) >>> Avenger's Shield.
Wait til mob is about a 2 seconds from melee.
Holy Shield >>> Judge (does not use Global Cooldown) >>> Consecrate >>> Seal of Righteousness.
Repeat last step once more until Avenging Wrath has faded. Once it falls judge either crusader or wisdom.
My standard rotation for tanking is:
Holy Shield >>> Judge (No GCD) >>> Consecrate >>> Seal of Righteousness
Reason for putting the judgement between holy shield and consecrate is it does not use global cooldown, however there is a delay between when you judge and when you can replace your seal. This will also leave you about 4 seconds of your tanking rotation unused, this is when you can try to throw in Holy shield, or taunt extra mobs, Exorcise, Hammer of Wrath.
Talking about builds, I would like to reintroduce the discussion of what would be the new MT paladin build in replacement of the old 49/12 variations pre-2.3.
- Dropped Reckoning in order to obtain the requisite 5 points for the new Combat Expertise. My reason is that of all threat boosting talents this was the most "dangerous" since it provokes more boss parries (and I'm feeling the increase of thrashes after switching to the Merciless Gavel, one second faster than my old Gavel of Unhearted Secrets). Hopefully the loss in threat won't be significant, although I hate the loss of AoE farming efficiency.
- Didn't take the new PoJ. It's a proc and not nothing I can rely on consistently to diminish influx of magic damage or make spikes more palateable.
- Imp Judgement are 2 points that I'm kinda more willing to maybe give out. I don't often profit from the reduced CD on judgement in raids due to encroaching CDs, although it's handy in smaller content. I could get a couple in the new Imp. SoC talent to increase raid DPS overall.
What do you think?
Oh, and excellent guide by the way. Regarding professions, I've found to be enchanter extremely useful, due to the +24 spelldamage made available through ring slots (and even extra stats if you are at Hyjal level).
Coming from the ret pally thread, there it was concluded you will actually gain DPS if you avoid judging when it means you'll have autoattacks without seals. Anyone done similar math for prot with SoR? As in, is the threat lost by delaying judge gets more or less than made up for by having an extra SoR autoattack over a unsealed autoattack?
I'm working out an excel-sheet for our threat generation. It's based on one, that was posted in these forums. But i have taken it to another 'level'. Some feedback would be cool.
And if anyone could give me a solide formula for the new Seal of vengeance. I don't know this is calculated since PTR 2.3.
It works only with Microsoft Excel, I've heard a lot of people trying to open this in Open Office and that it doesnt work there.
Coming from the ret pally thread, there it was concluded you will actually gain DPS if you avoid judging when it means you'll have autoattacks without seals. Anyone done similar math for prot with SoR? As in, is the threat lost by delaying judge gets more or less than made up for by having an extra SoR autoattack over a unsealed autoattack?
I'm going to try laying out threat cycles with ASCII.
Here's a basic threat cycle without Imp. Judgement:
The first line is the timeline in seconds. The second line is the sequence of GCD rotations, each of which takes 1.5 seconds. (I'm padding each ability to take up exactly six characters including brackets, which corresponds to 1.5 seconds on the timeline.) The letter J on the third line represents the time when Judgement is used; in this case SoR is cast immediately after Judgement, so there's no time spent unsealed. (And no, there is no way to get that ugly extra whitespace out of the bottom of the code box.)
We're assuming that we're dealing with a crushing-blow situation, so Holy Shield must be cast every ten seconds come hell or high water. This means there's no way to cast Consecration more than once every 10 seconds -- the next cast can't come before 9.5 seconds, and that would delay HS til one second into the next cycle, which isn't something we can afford to do. So the cycle above simply repeats every 10 seconds.
Now, let's look at the case where we have Imp. Judgement. In this case we have the ability to shuffle things around a bit, so the cycle looks a bit different from one iteration to the next:
So, this gets us five judgements in 40 seconds, as opposed to four judgements in 40 seconds for the non-Imp. Judgement cycle. In exchance for this, we go two seconds without a seal (from 9.5s of the first line to 1.5s of the second line.) In the simplest terms, over a long fight Imp Judgement increases JoR damage by 25% but decreases SoR damage by 5%.
As a rough benchmark, on our last Void Reaver kill, I did 41,509 damage with SoR and 27,020 damage with JoR. (I didn't have aggro for the whole fight, but since I don't have Imp. Judgement, I was doing the same seal/judge routine when I didn't have aggro as I was doing when I did have aggro.) If I'd had Imp. Judgement, I would have gained 6755 damage from JoR and lost 2075 damage from SoR, for a net gain of 4680 damage, or a net gain of 6.8% of total JoR+SoR damage (and hence the same gain in total JoR+SoR threat.)
I can't say how that would look as a fraction of total threat, since I don't think I've ever tanked a traditional tank-and-spank 25-man boss, but if someone else wants to offer up a WWS of something like MTing Morogrim or Gruul, we can check it out.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Had a TPS spreadsheet in the works myself similar to the dps on i had. However with lack of time think i'll pass on it, but here are some little tips i would suggest.
1) Include a partial resist value (about 4%) as this does have a significant effect on threat
2) Check the different skill calculations for including resists as i believe some of them are slightly off. From my testing i found out:-
SoR can be Partially resisted, but not fully resisted
SoV Dot can be partially resisted, but noy fully resisted
SoV 5 stack hit can be fully resisted (not 100% sure about partial resist)
JoR/JoV can be resisted and partially resisted
Consecration's first tick can be resisted, and any tick can be partially resisted
Holy Shield can be fully resisted but not partially resisted
Retribution Aura can be resisted and partially resisted
Blessing of Sanctuary can be fully resisted but not partially
Thorns and Fire shield can be partially and fully resisted
Darkmoon card Vengeance and Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal can be resisted but not paritally
In addition when it comes to consecration and judgement of the crusader be careful with the calculations.
A) The extra damage from JoTC is not subject to diminishing returns when lowering rank. Will always get the 219*0.95 damage
B) The extra damage from JoTC (219*0.95) does NOT get modified by % modifiers such as Sanctity Aura, 1HWS, Avenging Wrathe etc
When it comes to cycle time, its impossible to HS/Consecration/Judge on cooldown and keep seal at 100% uptime. However i never did the theory to work out the optimal rotation.
Talking about builds, I would like to reintroduce the discussion of what would be the new MT paladin build in replacement of the old 49/12 variations pre-2.3.
Wouldn't 10% str and 15% seal/judgement of righteousness damage deal more threat than 5% damage via 1h weapon spec, assuming you can drop the points from parry and still be crush immune via blocks? (note that being crush immune via blocks rather than via parry actually deals a bit more threat as well).
As for the rotation, remember that when redoubt is active you can actually let your holy shield wait for a concentration+judge+reseal. Depending on what portion of your threat is from holy shield blocks this might be a tps loss, although I highly doubt it after glancing again at the OP's tps from spell damage values. Figuring out redoubt's uptime to calculate actual tps is a big problem, but figuring out wether you gain or lose tps by delaying HS when redoubt is active shoudln't be.
How about specs with improved seal of crusader (or pursuit of justice)?
No matter how i look at it, there has to be at least one point "drained" from other talents... and no more then one if we're skipping T4 talents entirely and dropping spell warding with reckoning (which is what i plan to do - it's still 6% more spell mitigation then druids anyway). Dropping point in which talent is lowest reduction in mitigation?
Shield Specialization? Anticipation? Toughness?
Dropping single point in Toughness will cost me about 320-360 armor (out of ~18000 raidbuffed)... or about 0.5% of additional armor mitigation.
Dropping single point in Shield Specialization - about 30 block value (maybe even 40-50 with new badge loot).. also about ~0.5% of average boss attack i guess, and in aoe situations not every attack is blocked (but relative reduction on each block is a lot higher)
Dropping single point in Anticipation - 0.16% miss/dodge/parry/block... looks like heaviest hit out of them all.
Wouldn't 10% str and 15% seal/judgement of righteousness damage deal more threat than 5% damage via 1h weapon spec, assuming you can drop the points from parry and still be crush immune via blocks? (note that being crush immune via blocks rather than via parry actually deals a bit more threat as well).
As for the rotation, remember that when redoubt is active you can actually let your holy shield wait for a concentration+judge+reseal. Depending on what portion of your threat is from holy shield blocks this might be a tps loss, although I highly doubt it after glancing again at the OP's tps from spell damage values. Figuring out redoubt's uptime to calculate actual tps is a big problem, but figuring out wether you gain or lose tps by delaying HS when redoubt is active shoudln't be.
The 10% strength is pretty much irrelevant, it'd only increase your white DPS and that's entire unaffected by Righteous Fury. So we're looking here at Improved Seal of Righteousness versus One-Handed Weapon Specialization.
One-Handed Weapon Specialization is easy enough to calculate, it'll increase your total threat output by 5%. Improved Seal of Righteousness, assuming that Seal combined with Judgement of Righteousness provides 40% of your threat (Which is a reasonable estimate on a single target), would be worth 6%, so would be a wee little bit better than one-handed weapon specialization, but only on a single target.
On the other hand, you pretty much have to spend 10 talent points to get access to Improved Seal of Righteousness, versus the 5 talent points needed for one-handed weapon specialization. So the cost for getting Improved Seal of Righteousness is higher.
10/25/07, 7:34 PM
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