Prinsesa

What do we know about Blessing of Sanctuary?

I haven't seen it mentioned in the Think Tank at all, but I routinely use it in 5-mans along with an 800+ block value set to try to drive my damage intake as low as possible (fully blocking Heroic Mennu the Betrayer is nice), but I'm wondering BoSanc is actually having any effect.

Particularly, what do we know about the damage reduction effect (I seem to recall that it undergoes a multiplier depending on how large the hit is) and what order does it come into relative to armor and blocking.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

dariusii

i've asked a GM in the past and i had a problem with my righteous defence working properly. it was fixed with a patch but he told me that its effected by physical hit rating and not spell hit rating. even though it uses mana, just like holy shield, it is considered a physical hit rating.

 

◊ Cathela

As far as I know, and unless something's changed, BoSanct takes effect before armor mitigation. So if you have, say, 60% armor DR, you're really only getting 0.40 x 80 = 32 points of damage reduced per hit. It can be decently good for AoE situations, and especially for AoE solo grinding, but it's pretty weak otherwise.

I'm really hoping this is something the devs pick up on for the WotLK talents; aside from BoSanct's underpowered-ness, it's also pretty annoying to have both talented blessings in the same tree.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

jere

I have played around with the math behind BoSanc for a while. In general it seems to be used in this fashion:

Damage = (Unmitigated_Dmg - BoSanc)*(1-DR_ac)*0.94 - block

Given that it has some interesting characteristics:

1. The more AC you have, the less physical dmg it reduces per hit (modified by AC and RF). At the AC cap, it reduces by about 18ish. At around 18K AC, it reduces by 30ish.

2. If you play around with the equations, and try to express the damage reduced by BoSanc as a type of "effective" AC, then you will find that increasing your AC will increase the amount of "effective" AC from BoSanc by a linear amount (I.E. Every 1000 AC gives the same additional "effective" AC as the last 1000 AC. This is IF you keep the incoming dmg constant.

As an example:
For an unmitigated hit of 10000 dmg, BoSanc will provide 8 additional "effective" AC for every additional 1000 AC
For an unmitigated hit of 20000 dmg, BoSanc will provide 4 additional "effective" AC for every additional 1000 AC
NOTE: Assuming max rank BoSanc

3. If you play some more with it and try to express the damage reduced by BoSanc as a damage reduction multiplier (I.E. 1-DR_bosanc), then you will find for a given amount of damage, BoSanc will provide the same amount of multiplicative damage reduction for any AC value you have (meaning a constant damage reduction if you keep the incoming damage constant.

As an example:
For an unmitigated hit of 10000 dmg, BoSanc will provide 0.8% dmg reduction for any AC value.
For an unmitigated hit of 20000 dmg, BoSanc will provide 0.4% dmg reduction for any AC value.
NOTE: Assuming max rank BoSanc
EDIT: By dmg reduction I mean: dmg = unmit_dmg*(1-DR_ac)*(1-0.008) - BV for example

If you are interested in any this, here are some threads where we discussed it over at Maintankadin:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Blessing of Sanc
Maintankadin :: View topic - Some Blessing of Sanctuary Math

And the spreadsheet of the calculations I ran:
Google Docs - bosanc

 

Yenadar

The tooltip of "all sources" is also not 100% accurate. I have noticed that it has no affect on damage from most damaging auras.

For damage reduction, it does not have much value, not much more than a boost to block value. I use it primarily for the additional threat, though we almost always have 4 or 5 paladins in the raid, so the blessing can be afforded. In terms of sheer reduction, having another paladin keep Blessing of Sacrifice on you is by far better. I normally have a holy or our ret pally keeping BoS on me the whole fight, to reduce my damage as well as boost their mana return with low, easily controllable damage intake.

 

PsiVen

I wouldn't be surprised to see Sanctuary changed to a +% block value buff in WotLK, as I recall something similar was already hinted at around 2.3. I can't remember how much of those rumors were fabricated though.

 

◊ Cathela

I think I tested it a long time ago and discovered that against magic damage it's treated as a -spelldamage effect, so using the max rank (80) against a magic nuke causes the caster's spelldamage to be treated as 80 points less than it actually is.

So it would make sense that it wouldn't affect damage auras since those almost always have a spelldamage coefficient of zero.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Hawklan

Has there been an update to the gearing spreadsheet? You know the one where you could choose from a list of gear for each slot and then add gems/enchants to them and get a complete picture on defense stats, avoidance etc.?

I am still trying to see what the 2.4 badge gear can do for me if I change some of the other pieces, move stuff around etc.

 

Devil

Checkout http://www.warcrafter.net/sandbox its gotten to be pretty accurate and is very customizable.

 

SpaceDrake

So I got into this painfully hurf durf argument with another ShC Prot Paladin who was all "hurrrr you don't need to be uncrushable to be a raid tank, all you need is 16k HP and the healers can make up the rest hurrrr" and I won't get into that argument any further. But he then dropped a bit of a bomba on me that I wasn't expecting: he told me that, regardless of how much +defense or avoidance you have, even after 102.4%, you always have a 1% chance to be critically hit and a 1% chance to be crushed.

And he said he totally heard it on Elitist Jerks.

This basically runs counter to not only all of the experiences I've had tanking Karazhan and heroics over nearly the past half-year, but it also defies my understanding of the way the hit table works. What I'm guessing is he got confused and heard about special cases like the Sunwell and Illidari Assassins and stuff like that. However, he was using this "it's still 1% on both" idea to argue "so who cares if I'm 5% crushable lol, my epic stamina gems will let the healers make up for the rest" and I would like to put this little bit of misinformation to bed right now before anyone else somehow gets the same idea.

Of course, if this is somehow true and I've missed it all this time I expect to be mocked mercilessly. Just somehow, though, I don't think this guy is right (and it's still a terrible argument for not being uncrushable, good luck tanking stuff like Teron Gorefiend while crushable.)

 

Anedris

He's wrong. That's a notion that pops up from time to time no matter how many times its quashed it seems. Some people just don't seem to get it. You can be 100% uncrushable. You can be 100% uncrittable. You can be 100% unhittable (though that last is hard to do). The only unremovable last 1% is the chance to miss a boss with spells.

 

Prinsesa

I hope your friend reads this, SpaceDrake:

1. You can be uncrittable. There is no hidden 1% chance to be crit no matter you do. It's possible to be crit, but only under very special circumstances: You spell reflected Judgement of the Crusader onto yourself, you hit your "Sit" button, you were fighting the Demonic Instructors that cast a crit-increasing debuff, etc.

2. You can be uncrushable. There is no hidden 1% chance to be crushed no matter what you do. Most tanks are uncrushable only while Shield Block/Holy Shield is up, so they might still get crushed if they're taking a lot of hits or didn't activate Holy Shield for some reason. Even then, it's possible to create a passively uncrushable set.

3. You can even be unhittable. I'm sure you've heard of the Rogue who drove up his dodge so high that Gruul nor Mother Shahraz cannot land a solid hit on him.

If you please, link him to this post and screenshot the results. For bonus points, ask where he got that 1% idea from this site, for it has never been proved nor accepted as truth.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

gogandantes

Here is a link to my armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

OK, I have a few questions

1. My spec. I was told to go with that spec, because I had originally 530 def, and this was a temp fix to get stats into other areas, is this a decent spec for my gear?

2. My Gear. I am trying to get the darkmoon card, or the MgT tanking trinket, and i just about have enough badges for the Legplates of the Aldor, but what are some more fixes i can do either by swaping out gear or by upgrading? (Guild is doing SSC and TK (progression))

3. When I tank I usually toss out a shield, drop a concecrate, and then spam Holy Shield, concecrate, and SoV (and toss a judge wis if needed) is this ideal? or is there a different way i should be doing it?

thanks for all the help, and trying to refine my skills for the harder content that is ahead

 

pope master

Get rid of the spell hit gems. It doesn't do you nearly as much good as straight up stam, straight up spell damage or the epic gem combining the two.

 

Mavrinac

Hey Spacedrake, I've seen you around on ShC. I think I may have run into that same paladin, and yes, he is wrong. The tanking mechanic is likely how you understand it: the boss has a 5.6% chance to critically hit you and at 490 defense you reduce that entire chance to 0%, and at 102.4% combined boss' miss, miss, dodge, parry, block the chance of a boss landing a crushing blow gets pushed off the attack table, which, IIRC looks like this (maybe the dodge and parry are switched):

Miss>Dodge>Parry>Block>Crushing>Critical

As said before, the only way to change that is to add some outside source (like a debuff that increases a mob's chance to crit) into the equation.

A little off the topic, this little discussion actually raised another question from me for you guys: If you're uncrushable, critical hits are impossible as well as crushing blows, correct? If i'm wrong let me know, but I never really thought about it. Personally, I try to keep 490 def and 102.4% miss/dodge/parry/block.


Gogandantes, I generally stick to this opening rotation: SoRighteousness(on trash, Wisdom or Light on bosses), Avenger's Shield, Consecrate, Holy Shield, Judgement, SoVengeance, then I repeat this one: Holy Shield, Consecrate, Judgement, SoVengeance. If you can follow that, the rotation's worked quite well for me, so the one you've proposed seems pretty nice.

With respect to your spec/gear, I'll post some pointers about it in detail when I can access the Armory (I'm at a public location where the internet use is monitored and won't let me connect to the WoW network of websites).

 

Left

As I understand it, the rule of thumb is to never use a gem that does not have stamina, and to never socket anything except straight stamina unless you specifically want the socket bonus. If you are shooting for a socket bonus, then you want [Solid Star of Elune] in Blue sockets, [Glowing Nightseye] in red sockets, and [Enduring Talasite] in Yellow sockets. (Or, use their epic equivalents.)

 

SpaceDrake

Yeah, spell hit is worthless. Slap some more stamina on that madness. Ditto the spelldam/stam gems, just go straight Stam in a few of those. 400+ before applying Superior Wizard Oil is way more than enough for up to, like, Tier 6 content.

Beyond that you look very solid gearwise, although you could use a little more adjustment to your talent build. I would drop Vindication and Improved Judgment entirely and put that in Anticipation; taking Anticipation puts less of a stress on your gear for +defense and allows you to stack more avoidance or Stamina junk. I'd drop down to 2 points in 1H spec to get that last point in Anticipation and two points into Spell Warding (less damage is less damage, natch, and 4% off of a 2000 damage spell on top of any resists is a lot). Finally, this is something I prefer, I'd go with Improved Devotion Aura instead of Reckoning; Reckoning is a kind of nice threat buff when it goes off, but that doesn't happen too often on a lot of bosses and you should have Devo up when tanking anyway since Retribution doesn't fire if you're uncrushable and 1200 armor is, like, wearing another helmet. It'll put you at nearly 17500 armor, which would be enough for Tier 5 content without trying.

A few things need adjustment (definitely ditch Vindication and Imp Judgment, they do very little for you), but you definitely have the right ideas.

(Also you're wearing the gear I want in a month or two )

(also how does this forum not have words and argh, Lord BEEF has failed us all )

EDIT: Spell hit is worthless, slap some more SPELL HIT on that madness

 

Grindolf

A few quick questions about totems, didn't find any answers through google, searching or common sense (feel free to flame if one of those should have yielded results).

Assuming I can choose, which should I go for, Flametongue or Superior Wizard Oil? Guessing totem is superior for single target and oil for aoe-tanking, but that's just worthless guessing. Also, I'm assuming WF is superior to everything, but is it?

 

SpaceDrake

Turglynn Yeah, The Meddlers maintain a strict "no drama" policy so I'm not going to name names... but if The Person In Question is as militant to other Tankadins as he was to me, I would suspect he's locked horns with a lot of the ShC Tankadin community at one point.

Technically, yes: if you're uncrushable, you're also uncrittable by fiat regardless of your defense. It's a good idea to maintain 490+, though, since if you slip on the Holy Shield you don't want to be crittable (crushes are bad, but crits are basically wipes, especially on madness like Teron Gorefiend or even Malchezzar) and going up to 490+ gives you +20% mitigation anyway.

I sort of go back and forth on SoV. On the one hand, I know that it causes a ton of hate when fully stacked and if you can "seal dance" between it and SoR the bottom falls out on your aggro, but I can never seem to get it to refresh in time to not lose the stack. On the other hand, 1200+ judgment crits give me wood.

Frankly I always go for my Oil. It's a straight buff to my Holy damage which I know causes double aggro, as opposed to something that may or may not go off. I'd love to see some actual numbers run on it, though.

 

Rhaegal

WF means you don't get WoA, which as I understand it is better for paladin threat than WF--certainly in an AoE tanking situation, but I think even for single-target tanking as well. Also remember that Flametongue and Windfury won't stack, so if you're asking for Flametongue, you won't be asking for WF. Considering WoA will increase Flametongue's damage as well, it's a pretty good combination on a threat-limited fight. Not sure about Weapon Oil, though. Even if the oil doesn't out-threat Flametongue, though, the shaman is (in general) better off dropping a Searing Totem for the extra DPS, assuming no nearby CC.

However, it depends entirely on what your tank group looks like. The difference between WoA and WF for you doesn't even come close to the difference between WF and no WF for a warrior tank, or if any extra rogues/DPS warriors spill over into the MT group in a melee-heavy raid.

Also, to SpaceDrake: Flametongue goes on off every melee hit, so there's no wondering whether or not it will go off. On the other hand, it can be resisted, which isn't the case for all of your holy damage.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Mordekhuul

I'm not sure if you are asking a question or answering a question that I didn't see looking back over the previous page of posts.

Either way, I'll expand a little.

Druid taunt, Warrior taunt, and Paladin taunt (RD), as you say, benefit only from melee +hit. This was changed many patches ago, as all taunts used to rely on spell hit, making it difficult for warriors, for example, to improve their hit rate on taunt.

However, in all other ways, all three taunt abilities are still treated as a spell. This means that the miss rate on taunt for the three classes is 17% against a level 73 (or boss) opponent, and means that 1% of that can not be done away with, no matter how much you stack +hit.

It also means that you cannot taunt if you are silenced, I believe, even for warriors and druids.

 

• Arikah

WoA is most certainly better for aoe tanking, but i am in the belief that WF is better for single target (boss) tanking. WoA when single target tanking will only provide a very small boost to your consecrate and sor/jor, i'm thinking somewhere in the +10 per tick range... WF when it procs gives you an instant ~220 sor (and a small white hit) at the risk of being parried. If i could remember the proc rate of wf with a 1h, i could come up with some math...

 

• Chicken

Windfury totem is 20% chance to proc, and is worse than Wrath of Air even on a single target unless you have really extremely high amounts of spell damage. I made a post about it a while ago right here: http://elitistjerks.com/700443-post4.html

While the math in that post is missing a few key factors, I expect that the amount of spell damage required to make Windfury equal or better would still be far out of reach of what's viable even if you took all factors into account.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Grindolf

You misunderstand me. I very often find myself in a situation (ZA in particular) where I just have to let the DPS choose totems. I often outgear the instance and time is money friend, so I just have to accept flametongue totem (caster group) or windfury (melee group). In those two situations, would I be better off just sticking a wizard oil on my weapon? Assuming it's mostly single target of course.

 

• Chicken

Ah, I see.

Flametongue totem is worthless, stick with Wizard Oil; Flametongue totem doesn't benefit from your extra threat from Righteous Fury, meaning it's threat is simply equal to the damage it does, and the damage it does isn't high.

Windfury vs. Wizard Oil is a different matter entirely however. Wizard Oil is 21 TPS, Meaning you'd need 106 TPS from your Seal of Righteousness + Auto-Attack to make Windfury better. 106 TPS is lower than the base TPS values of Seal of Righteousness + Auto-Attack however. In other words, Windfury is better than having a Wizard Oil.

Or to put it very simply: Wrath of Air + Wizard Oil > Windfury > Wizard Oil > Flametongue

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of